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Rangers should 150% target Marian Hossa in 08

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Old
08-09-2007, 12:30 PM
  #176
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That's like saying, "Yes, we can afford to sign Lundqvist, but we should just let him go because in the future, Montoya MIGHT be good and then how will we be able to afford two superstar goalies?"

If that happens, we trade Montoya or Lundqvist (as Neil Smith should've done with Beezer instead of letting him slip during the 1993 expansion).

But I sure as hell don't want to say no to a superstar on the chance that a few years from now, a prospect MIGHT develop beyond expectations.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rodmunch View Post
Yeah we could have room for next year to sign Hossa.

And then what? Staal will want big money when his entry level deal expires, as could potentially Cherepanov, Bourret, etc. While Hossa may not be a problem in his first year or two, he could strangle us cap wise for the next five-six years because we wont have enough room to get our core guys signed, and lose all of our depth. And most people would agree, having good depth wins championships, not a couple of superstars with a bunch of fluff depth.

We already have Gomez and Drury. We cant make a big UFA splash every year.

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08-09-2007, 02:13 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by BrooklynHockey99 View Post
That's like saying, "Yes, we can afford to sign Lundqvist, but we should just let him go because in the future, Montoya MIGHT be good and then how will we be able to afford two superstar goalies?"

If that happens, we trade Montoya or Lundqvist (as Neil Smith should've done with Beezer instead of letting him slip during the 1993 expansion).

But I sure as hell don't want to say no to a superstar on the chance that a few years from now, a prospect MIGHT develop beyond expectations.

you realize Neil Smith did trade beezer for doug lidster right?

you realize with the impending expanison draft Beezer had very little value right?

you realize the Lundqvist Montoya debate (which is non-existant considering one guy is an AHL all star and one guy is a two time vezina finalist) is much different then richter/beezer right?

Hossa isn't happening...it's probably one of the worst ideas on this board in a long time...you have yet to make a good point yet you continue to reach for them..

i'm done...if you need to learn the history of this team or how things work with the salary cap pm somebody....

marion hossa is not NEEDED next summer.....the team has made there bed with free agency for the near future...now any money spent should be on resigning the RFA's and impending free agents longterm and bringing in depth to support the regulars that are here...

your future contracts for players is based on your opinion...your opinon has marion hossa has a legit option...what does that say to everybody about your opinion..it says it doesnt' mean anything and your clueless on how teams in the NHL operate in a salary cap world..

ea sports is in the game...it's not reality...

i'm done with this..

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08-09-2007, 02:43 PM
  #178
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steinbrenner, can i just ask you a quick question?
what happens to a team built around Jagr when said Jagr decides to hang them up?

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08-09-2007, 02:49 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by TheHotRock View Post
steinbrenner, can i just ask you a quick question?
what happens to a team built around Jagr when said Jagr decides to hang them up?
You create a team that is not reliant on one player.

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08-09-2007, 02:54 PM
  #180
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singn, you're (clearly) entitled to your opinion, but I'd rather not be the Buffalo Sabres and roll 4 2nd lines, you know what i mean? I want one of my players in the top 10 every year.

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08-09-2007, 03:00 PM
  #181
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singn, you're (clearly) entitled to your opinion, but I'd rather not be the Buffalo Sabres and roll 4 2nd lines, you know what i mean? I want one of my players in the top 10 every year.
I'm talking more about being like the Devils, not the Sabres.

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08-09-2007, 03:15 PM
  #182
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clear it up for me, the (junior) dynasty devils or the devils now? you know, its possible to win without being boring and its also possible to balance developing talent and acquiring superstars.

i udnerstand the sentiment though, we have a lot of responsible, shut-down esque d-men in our system and with henrik, in 5 years, our gaa could be under 2 most games.
still, i'll take hossa at 7ish if thats what hes asking for to come here....to me, its really a no brainer

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08-09-2007, 03:22 PM
  #183
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clear it up for me, the (junior) dynasty devils or the devils now? you know, its possible to win without being boring and its also possible to balance developing talent and acquiring superstars.

i udnerstand the sentiment though, we have a lot of responsible, shut-down esque d-men in our system and with henrik, in 5 years, our gaa could be under 2 most games.
still, i'll take hossa at 7ish if thats what hes asking for to come here....to me, its really a no brainer
I'm not neccesarily talking about their style of play. What I am talking about is their ability to maintain a high level of play despite losing some big name players (Arnott, Guerin, Niedermeyer, Holik, Stevens). I'm talking about developing a farm system and prospects who play the same style in the AHL that the senior team plays in the NHL so that they can step in and not have to learn a new system. I'm talking about creating a team for whom the playoffs are a given and they expect to compete for the Cup year after year for the better part of 14 years.

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08-09-2007, 03:25 PM
  #184
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ummm, we kinda already have that. HFD plays the same style as NYR, our system continues to feed us quality NHLers (no superstars though). Either way, its not enough to be competitive for me, I want a cup, I dont care if we msis the playoffs for 5 years after we win it, cups last forever. Talk to St Louis fans about how much it means to go to the playoffs year after year and not hang any banners.

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08-09-2007, 04:03 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
You create a team that is not reliant on one player.
exactly...plus who can answer what the rangers will do two summers from now?

the answer of who to replace is going to replace Jagr is impossible to answer now simply because who ever does come in to replace Jagr won't be replacing Jagrs salary spot...

Either way Hossa isn't the answer..

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08-09-2007, 05:35 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by TheHotRock View Post
ummm, we kinda already have that. HFD plays the same style as NYR, our system continues to feed us quality NHLers (no superstars though). Either way, its not enough to be competitive for me, I want a cup, I dont care if we msis the playoffs for 5 years after we win it, cups last forever. Talk to St Louis fans about how much it means to go to the playoffs year after year and not hang any banners.
How many cups does New Jersey have?

As Singin said before, instead of relying on one player, it would be better to build a core from our own system ala the Devils, it seems to work for them year after year.

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08-09-2007, 05:43 PM
  #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHotRock View Post
ummm, we kinda already have that. HFD plays the same style as NYR, our system continues to feed us quality NHLers (no superstars though). Either way, its not enough to be competitive for me, I want a cup, I dont care if we msis the playoffs for 5 years after we win it, cups last forever. Talk to St Louis fans about how much it means to go to the playoffs year after year and not hang any banners.
In what way does having Hossa equate to winning a cup? I'm not seeing that... anywhere... ever.

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08-09-2007, 09:18 PM
  #188
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"you realize Neil Smith did trade beezer for doug lidster right? you realize with the impending expanison draft Beezer had very little value right?" ... Right, that's why I said let him slip away. I didn't say he was lost in the expansion draft. But trading VBK for a #7 dman is letting him slip away. He should've been able to get AT LEAST a second liner, maybe better. If he had traded VBK for Matteau and Noonan (or even just Matteau OR Noonan OR Tikkanen OR Glenn Anderson or any other mid-range NHLer), we could've saved Amonte. But he should've done it early in the 92-93 season or even during the 91-92 season. It was known for years before 1993 that there will be NHL expansion and therefore expansion draft. Smith shouldn't have traded VBK at last second.

"you realize the Lundqvist Montoya debate (which is non-existant considering one guy is an AHL all star and one guy is a two time vezina finalist) is much different then richter/beezer right? ".... that's wasn't the point. Go read what I wrote. I hate having arguments with people who don't have reading comprehension skills. Please re-read what I wrote.

"Hossa isn't happening...it's probably one of the worst ideas on this board in a long time...you have yet to make a good point yet you continue to reach for them"... Nobody ever changes his mind in an argument. You got into your head that Hossa is a bad idea and nothing I say will change your mind. If I were proven a real psychic and predicted that Hossa will win the MVP next year and then took $5M to play on the Rangers, you'd still think it's a bad idea (forget the psychic part, I mean the MVP/$5 part is a bad idea).

"i'm done...if you need to learn the history of this team or how things work with the salary cap pm somebody...." Somehow I suspect I'm the one who needs a history lesson. If you'd like, you are welcome to IM me and do rapid fire with me on line-ups and trades. I can tell you every trade since the early 90s, down to a late pick or a low level prospect.

"marion hossa is not NEEDED next summer.....the team has made there bed with free agency for the near future...now any money spent should be on resigning the RFA's and impending free agents longterm and bringing in depth to support the regulars that are here"... Yes, that's been your point repeatedly. That no matter how much Hossa makes, we shouldn't get him. What if he gives us a discount? What if the cap skyrockets? What if Hossa is an MVP or an MVP Finalist? Doesn't matter to you. You've made a decision that the Rangers don't need superstars and nothing will change it.

"your future contracts for players is based on your opinion...your opinon has marion hossa has a legit option...what does that say to everybody about your opinion..it says it doesnt' mean anything and your clueless on how teams in the NHL operate in a salary cap world"... Ok, when you call someone clueless, please figure out the difference between "you're" and "your" because it makes you look silly. But yes, it is just my opinion. But it's also the max possible. Do you expect Hank to make $12M next year? What's the max he can make if he signs this winter? $6? $7? No way will Sather give him more.

What will Avery make? $3? $4? Can you see Avery making more than $4 next year?

What will Rosie make? Do you think he'll get $12? $10? $8? No way.

So the numbers I put up is the max.

"ea sports is in the game...it's not reality"... I'm glad you are familiar with EA sports. Last time I played it, it was on Super Nintendo (that thing before Nintendo-64). I don't even remember if it was possible to make trades when I played it last.

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08-09-2007, 09:22 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by HockeyBurd View Post
In what way does having Hossa equate to winning a cup? I'm not seeing that... anywhere... ever.
It doesn't equal that. But Hossa is better than Hossa, and if you can fit a superstar under the cap, you do it.

I love how NOBODY who's arguing against Hossa did any math at all. You'd think that since salaries and the cap are about numbers, at least some math would be useful.

1. What's the MINIMUM possible cap space available for next year?
2. What's the MAXIMUM (reasonable) salary for Lund, Rosie and Avery?

Now do the math. Even in the worst case scenario, Hossa should still fit. Worst case, we lose Avery. Who would you rather have, Avery or Hossa?

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08-09-2007, 09:23 PM
  #190
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Hey, if we could sign Hossa for 4 or 5 mil, I'd be all over it. But I don't see that happening.

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08-09-2007, 09:26 PM
  #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
I'm not neccesarily talking about their style of play. What I am talking about is their ability to maintain a high level of play despite losing some big name players (Arnott, Guerin, Niedermeyer, Holik, Stevens). I'm talking about developing a farm system and prospects who play the same style in the AHL that the senior team plays in the NHL so that they can step in and not have to learn a new system. I'm talking about creating a team for whom the playoffs are a given and they expect to compete for the Cup year after year for the better part of 14 years.
How does signing Hossa prevent them from developing the farm team? If Bourrett turns into another Arnott, great. There will be space for him on the team and under the cap. Hossa has NOTHING to do with developing the farm.

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08-09-2007, 09:31 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by rodmunch View Post
How many cups does New Jersey have?

As Singin said before, instead of relying on one player, it would be better to build a core from our own system ala the Devils, it seems to work for them year after year.
This is completely off point. The statement is completely not relevant here.

Did someone say that we should get Hossa, and then dump Cherry and Staal? What does Hossa have to do with them? If they develop, there will be enough space for them.

In fact, with Hossa the team will be LESS reliant on one player. Instead of having one first liner in, say, Cherry, they would have Cherry and Hossa.

Hossa makes the team LESS reliant on one player, not more.

This is slogan-eering that's popular with politicians. "I care about the children!" Huh? But what will you really do and how will that specifically help the children?

Same here. "We need a team not reliant on one player!" And so getting more good players makes you more reliant on one player? How? Is that like 5+1=4? What am I missing here?

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08-09-2007, 09:33 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post
exactly...plus who can answer what the rangers will do two summers from now?

the answer of who to replace is going to replace Jagr is impossible to answer now simply because who ever does come in to replace Jagr won't be replacing Jagrs salary spot...

Either way Hossa isn't the answer..

Yes, we can't tell what the Rangers will do 2 summers from now. But proclaiming Staal to be the next Scott Stevens with a $7M salary by the ripe old age of 22 is not too early.

Two summers from now, Jagr will be gone. Cap will rise. Kids will still be on their rookie contracts. Most of the kids will be busts or role players. A couple more will be average NHL regulars (Avery quality). Maybe 2-4 players will be good, but still unproven so it's VERY unlikely that the Rangers will give them a lot of money. Oh, and they'll probably still be under their cheap rookie contracts.

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08-09-2007, 09:40 PM
  #194
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Sens fan here. I read the first few pages and then skimmed the rest.

Even though Jags' and Straka's contracts will be expiring soon, you still have to account for the pay raises to your other young stars. Since Hossa will be free next year, he'll be looking for a fairly hefty salary and that might not be something you guys would want to take a chance on with the huge contracts for Drury/Gomez and I assume Lundqvist as well.

I think Jags still has a few good years left in him so ride him out till then. You might end up drafting a gem to lessen the loss of when he eventually leaves and use some of that money to go after a less expensive but still fairly established scorer.

Hossa's a pimp in the regular season and his defensive play is not overrated at all. He truly is one of the elite two-way talents in the league. The big problem with him is that he goes into incredibly long goal-scoring droughts in the playoffs and given that he's supposed to be the goal-scorer on his line, it ends up hurting the team.

As for the Kovalchuk/Hossa debate, I'd probably side with #18. My pick might be slightly biased but I saw the playoff series this past spring and definitely felt Hossa has done/can do more than what Kovalchuk did.

Last point -- someone mentioned the list of free agents (R and U) and mentioned Iginla's name. Iginla is off the market; he signed a 5-year $35 million extension.

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08-09-2007, 10:15 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by BrooklynHockey99 View Post
Yes, we can't tell what the Rangers will do 2 summers from now. But proclaiming Staal to be the next Scott Stevens with a $7M salary by the ripe old age of 22 is not too early.

Two summers from now, Jagr will be gone. Cap will rise. Kids will still be on their rookie contracts. Most of the kids will be busts or role players. A couple more will be average NHL regulars (Avery quality). Maybe 2-4 players will be good, but still unproven so it's VERY unlikely that the Rangers will give them a lot of money. Oh, and they'll probably still be under their cheap rookie contracts.
Im giving up trying to explain you're flawed logic, so just think about this.

So far, only two people, you and the thread starter, think this can work. Most of us feel that while Hossa would be great, it is unrealistic capwise.

You're 'predictions' on player salaries are pretty weak, quite honestly. I think you are being a little hopeful that they will take discounts to stay here

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08-09-2007, 11:28 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by rodmunch View Post
Im giving up trying to explain you're flawed logic, so just think about this.

So far, only two people, you and the thread starter, think this can work. Most of us feel that while Hossa would be great, it is unrealistic capwise.

You're 'predictions' on player salaries are pretty weak, quite honestly. I think you are being a little hopeful that they will take discounts to stay here
What the...! Did you read ANYTHING I've written? Seriously? When did I use the word "discount"?

I counted the WORST CASE SCENARIO - cap doesn't rise, Shanny's bonus counts for next year and all the current players get the MAXIMUM possible raises. Why are you lying?

Please be specific. What predictions are pretty weak. Will Avery make more than $4M next year? Really? How? You are trying to confuse the issue by putting words such as "discount" in my mouth when everything I said is the complete opposite of discount.

At least you admit that having Hossa would be great. Most people arguing against him say crazy things, outright crazy - we don't want a superstar just because superstars cost more than third liners. That's been their line of reasoning.

They didn't say Hossa is bad. They didn't say Hossa is overpriced. No, the argument has been, "We don't want stars, we want a bunch of Callahans."

Again, please show me the numbers of how it would not work.

I will concede to you the worst case scenario. Forget discounts, let's say all the current players will have career seasons. How much will they make? $5M for Rosie? $6? How much for Avery? $3? $4? How much for Lundqvist? $6? $7?

Ok, let's pretend that the cap won't rise and Shanny's bonus will count towards next year.

Even if Rosie makes $6 and King makes $7, we still have $9 left to spend. Now we have a choice between re-signing Avery for $4 and having $5 left under the cap, or signing Hossa for $8-$9.

Between Avery and Hossa, it's not even a close call.

Now let's say ONE of the following will happen:

1. Cap will rise;
2. Shanny's bonus will be squeezed this year;
3. Avery, Lund and Rosie do not all have a career year at the same time.

If just one of these doesn't happen, we can sign Hossa and re-sign Lund, Rosie and Avery.

Again, nowhere do you see discount. Even in the absolute WORST CASE SCENARIO (cap-wise), it will come down to a choice of Avery or Hossa.

And if you are going to quote me, please use the quotes as I do when responding to you. Why would you lie about me saying I expect discounts?

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08-09-2007, 11:40 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
Hey, if we could sign Hossa for 4 or 5 mil, I'd be all over it. But I don't see that happening.
Ok, what if next year we we re-sign the King for $7, Rosie for $5.5 and Avery for $3.5, and we still have $10M (which should happen).

With $10 under the cap, Hossa says he's willing to sign for $8. Still $2 left if you sign him. What if we have $13 left after re-signing the above trio and Hossa will sign for $8-9?

Do you say no?

Do you reject Hossa on the off-chance Bourret is the next Bure, and not only that, but he'll be a superstar immediately and will be a proven superstar before the end of his rookie contract?

Obviously if the numbers won't work, fine. If Hossa wants $12, he can do play with himself.

But unless everything goes wrong, we should be able to sign him for $8-$9 without losing any key players because Straka, Shanny, Malik and Mara will be gone.

Oh yeah, I forgot. Half the people here prefer Mara to Hossa. Heaven forbid we lose Mara or Avery in order to get Hossa...

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08-09-2007, 11:47 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by BrooklynHockey99 View Post
Ok, what if next year we we re-sign the King for $7, Rosie for $5.5 and Avery for $3.5, and we still have $10M (which should happen).

With $10 under the cap, Hossa says he's willing to sign for $8. Still $2 left if you sign him.

Do you say no?

Do you reject Hossa on the off-chance Bourret is the next Bure and not only that, but he'll be a superstar immediately and will be a proven superstar before the end of his rookie contract?

Obviously if the numbers won't work, fine. If Hossa wants $12, he can do play with himself.

But unless everything goes wrote, we should be able to sign him for $8 without losing any key players because Straka, Shanny, Malik and Mara will be gone.

Oh yeah, I forgot. Half the people here prefer Mara to Hossa. My bad.
If we're going to have 10m under the cap I'd certainly consider signing him for 8m. But I would still be concerned about having 29m/year or so tied up on 4 players for another half decade. At some point this kind of spending will have negative ramifications. I mean what happens if the cap doesn't go up the following summer? You're playing with fire if you keep spending to the cap...and it's only a matter of time before you get burned. So while I'm not saying absolutely not, I would be very cautious about it. Let's see what the cap # rises to next summer before we offer him a contract. The whole thing could be moot anyway as we don't know if he'll even be available.

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08-10-2007, 01:45 AM
  #199
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Originally Posted by BrooklynHockey99 View Post
It doesn't equal that. But Hossa is better than Hossa, and if you can fit a superstar under the cap, you do it.

I love how NOBODY who's arguing against Hossa did any math at all. You'd think that since salaries and the cap are about numbers, at least some math would be useful.

1. What's the MINIMUM possible cap space available for next year?
2. What's the MAXIMUM (reasonable) salary for Lund, Rosie and Avery?

Now do the math. Even in the worst case scenario, Hossa should still fit. Worst case, we lose Avery. Who would you rather have, Avery or Hossa?
Avery,..a thousand times over.

This thread is such a complete joke and you wanna know why? Because I see people asking who is gonna replace our top 10 league scorer Jagr, and then they backup there question with the answer being Hossa or some other big name.

1.Hossa has become known to be a choke in the playoffs. The guy has been in the playoffs so many times yet he has ZERO cups. Now I dont care what cups avery has and i want to say he has one under his belt, but the thing is Avery is a GAMER. There is no other way of putting that. He was 90% the reason why we took the first round in 4 this past year over atlanta.

2.Secondly, you dont sign guys like drury and gomez to those huge contracts and then the very next year, look to replace jagr with someone else and add another huge contract to the team salary. This is what drury and gomez are for, they are here to help smooth the transition from the jagr era to the era that begins when jagr leaves. You have cherepanov coming through the system to replace jagr. You have guys like anisimov, dubinsky, korpikoski, byers, dawes, pyatt, callahan, etc to take on the roles of the shanahans and the strakas and the jagrs. The Devils may have had their dynasty end but they still compete every year and they put up a great fight every year. I;ll take my chances with developing our own stars while knowing we have drury and gomez locked up to big player type contracts for the future, rather than going out and signing a hossa and leaving us with $1 million of cap space for the season.

On top of all this how about we wait til the 08 summer gets here before we start thinking about any of this? No need for this thread really

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08-10-2007, 08:30 AM
  #200
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Originally Posted by BrooklynHockey99 View Post
How does signing Hossa prevent them from developing the farm team? If Bourrett turns into another Arnott, great. There will be space for him on the team and under the cap. Hossa has NOTHING to do with developing the farm.
It's not just a farm system. It's continuity within the entire organization. It's about developing our own young players and getting them to the big club — not dumping them for people with a star player addiction. When people have mentioned the potential cap implication that signing Hossa might cause, the response has been, "oh well, so just trade some guys for draft picks." That a horrible way to run an organization and a horrible precident to be setting when it comes to young players who have come up through the ranks. Why can't the Rangers have their own guys play? Why must this team sign a big name FA every summer? As I recall, that hasn't worked well in the past.

I'm done with this thread. I'd rather look forward to this season rather than look ahead to next summer.

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