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"The Code"

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Old
03-11-2004, 10:42 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
I was watching a program with former Canuck Ryan Walter on it and he had an interesting story to tell. He said that one time when he was playing against Terry O'Reilly he had his stick up and accidently hit O'Reilly in the head with it. O'Reilly turned around, looked at Walter, dropped his gloves and said, "Wally, we have to go". I don't think we see that type of situation much in the NHL anymore.
Then Walter speedbagged him, right?


Seriously... they should just stick to the pirates' code.

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Old
03-12-2004, 12:13 AM
  #27
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The Code Died in about 1993...........A slash by Adam graves that broke Mario Lemieux's wrist, Suters hit on Gretzky.....More and more players wearing face shields and swinging sticks with reckless abandonment............The 90's ushered in an era of disrespect. Enforcers became sideshows instead of the important role players they always were. The last great was Probert with Detroit. He could score goals and make sure Yzerman was allowed to be creative without being run at.

Today's NHL is sanitized, Europeanized and minimized because of it.

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Old
03-12-2004, 04:48 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimEIV
The Code Died in about 1993...........A slash by Adam graves that broke Mario Lemieux's wrist, Suters hit on Gretzky.....More and more players wearing face shields and swinging sticks with reckless abandonment............The 90's ushered in an era of disrespect. Enforcers became sideshows instead of the important role players they always were. The last great was Probert with Detroit. He could score goals and make sure Yzerman was allowed to be creative without being run at.

Today's NHL is sanitized, Europeanized and minimized because of it.
Couldn't agree with you more.

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Old
03-12-2004, 05:01 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi
Actually I dont think Lowe even played in the playoffs last year (goons have no reason to play in the playoffs anyways). But Lowe did instigate a fight with May after he hit Tkachuk last year, and we Nuck fans had no problem with that at all.
I believe May had to take on several Blues that game. Not just one.

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Old
03-12-2004, 05:06 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by officeglen
League management knows what the code is. It's time to enforce it. For example if Havlat breaks it (using my team as an example), then nail him with a 10 game suspension, instead of a little 2 game vacation and an offer of free lunch from the other team. After a while, the players will clue in and respect will return. I really prefer the NFL at this point, where, after a hard-fought game, players can shake hands instead of threatening with hand motions to kill opposing players. It starts with respect for each other.

Hitchcock quote from: Reaction to Todd Bertuzzi suspension
I agree with you completely. I heard an interesting comment on the radio from a Colorado reporter who couldn't stand watching Rob Blake fight. He reasoning was that Blake can hurt you with a huge open-ice hit, why does he need to square off and pound your head in? (or the glass as it so happened) To this, I agree. But I also have a strong feeling that if fighting is removed, players will be able to run around recklessly without having to stand up for their actions. It's really a tough situation.

Take football for example. Ray Lewis can deliver a bone-crushing hit - you don't see two players start throwing punches at each other's heads, there's no need.

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Old
03-12-2004, 06:46 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triggrman
Last year when Big Bert knocked Al Mac out with a tough but "legal" hit, I wonder what Nucks fans would have thought if Lowe had sucker punched Bert from behind.
Lowe wouldn't have needed to, in the 10 seconds they were standing together Bertuzzi would have dropped the gloves when Lowe asked him to fight. If Bertuzzi skated away looking at the bench for help, I'm sure Lowe would have jumped him.

May hurt Tkachuk with a clean hit at the end of the regular season, first he fought Mellanby who is his equal, then he fought Lowe afterwards, you hurt a star player, you defend yourself. If a team feels that you are taking retrobution too far, maybe they start taking liberties on your players until you stop.

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Old
03-12-2004, 07:29 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triggrman
Moore isn't a big guy either is he? So going toe to toe with someone your size seems fair, unlike punching a guy who is 50 pounds lighter than you in the head from behind.
I might be missing something here, but I thought the whole point was the fight was supposed to be unfair. Moore, or who ever takes liberties with your best player, gets punched out by one of the teams goons or better fighters.

In Moores case, if the player he had have hit was, say a Sedin or some lesser player, then the Cooke fight may well have been enough. But the fact that it was a teams best player, the teams leader, and a player who doesn't play a physical game, that changed things.

I would be very suprised if the Avs team would be satisfied if Tyler Bouke concussed Sakic with a similiar hit, and then say he wrestled around with one of the smaller Canucks for a few seconds. I wouldn't be suprised to see Worrel chase him down after that and lay a beating on him... and I wouldn't feel upset if he did rattle his teeth. I want to see Joe Sakic and Markus Naslund play hockey.... they're extremely good at it. Sure it's fun to see guys like Moore and Cooke laying out a good hit... or say Trent Klatt if you don't like the Cooke comparison, but face it... it's these guys lack of skill that makes Lemaires defensive system so successful... and that's the bain of hockey in my opinion.

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Old
03-12-2004, 07:45 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Breck Av
You want to talk about code and protecting the stars when talking about Moore's hit on Naslund. It's like the Canucks are the only team to have a star player get hit or injured.

In the very same game Jarko Ruutu made himself Peter Forsberg's backpack. Forsberg hasn't played since that game. Naslund missed three. Yes, Forsberg and Naslund play vastly different styles and Forsberg usually dishes as much as he takes. But he's still a star player, the defending Art Ross and Hart Trophy winner. Should Ruutu be viciously attacked by Peter Worrell to stay the hell away from Forsberg?

And I'm sure every other team has their own examples of why they want "code" to be adhered to. Vancouver is not some lonely victim that needs things to be changed for their good.
Even you say it is such a weak comparison. Forsberg is a huge, extremely stong man who admits to like playing the rough stuff. Add to that he's been injured off and on all season, it seems stupid to suggest that Ruutu was the cause of any injury Forsberg is suffering from. Why not compare Forsberg with Bertuzzi? They are much closer in size and style of play no? Bertuzzi is constantly being wacked and piled on, etc etc... and he doesn't need any goons to protect him. I'm pretty sure if you take off your Av coloured glasses, you'll understand what posters are saying.

Just curious. Why is Worrell playing on the AVs? Is it his great hands and smooth skating? Gee, seems like you guys just picked up Barnaby... seems like a guy who plays a similiar game to Ruutu. I guess round Pierre figured Ruutu did a pretty good job on Forsberg, and realized that his team needed a similiar kind of player. Imagine that.

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Old
03-12-2004, 07:48 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triggrman
Last year when Big Bert knocked Al Mac out with a tough but "legal" hit, I wonder what Nucks fans would have thought if Lowe had sucker punched Bert from behind.
I would imagine they would have said the same thing they said about Bertuzzi's sucker punch. That it was a cheap, stupid, dangerous thing to do.

Ohhh, wait a minute... I get it...

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Old
03-12-2004, 01:09 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi
Honestly, what retribution is it to fight the 5'9'' 180 pound Cooke?
Quote:
Originally Posted by quat
Forsberg is a huge, extremely stong man
According to the players index on NHL.com

Cooke 511 205 lbs.

Forsberg - 6 1 205 lbs.

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Old
03-12-2004, 02:09 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wazee
According to the players index on NHL.com
Cooke 511 205 lbs.
Again, Cooke's stats are clearly inflated. He's nowhere near 200 pounds soaking wet.

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Old
03-12-2004, 02:11 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi
Again, Cooke's stats are clearly inflated. He's nowhere near 200 pounds soaking wet.
Pretty much every NHL players stats are inflated. Do you have any specific reason for beliving Cookes stats are more inflated than Moores? If not, your point is non-existant.

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Old
03-12-2004, 02:39 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wazee
According to the players index on NHL.com

Cooke 511 205 lbs.

Forsberg - 6 1 205 lbs.
So Cooke is small and Forsberg is big?

Really though Cooke is a decent fighter, did you expect Moore to go with a heavy weight?

I know I'd much rather fight 6'6" 235lbs. Robert Schnabel than I would 5.9" 195 lbs. Jordan Tootoo

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Old
03-12-2004, 03:34 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ehc73
I'm wondering when this changed where the tough guys do it all. In the days of Howe and Richard, they took care of themselves.
Generally, it happened as rosters were expanded. The difference is even more pronounced when you go back a couple of decades from Howe and the Rocket - in the 20's and 30's, the highest-PIM guys on a team usually tended to be amongst its top scorers, too. When you're only playing two lines, there isn't much room for a goon.

When the schedules grew from 50 to 70 games postwar, the rosters got bigger (14/15 to 19/20) mainly to keep the fatigue level reasonable over the longer season. Guys like Howie Young, who wouldn't have made it onto a 14-player roster, started to become the PIM leaders.

After the expansions beginning in 1968 diluted the talent pool, by the early-mid 70's goons were popping up on a lot rosters to do the bulk of the fighting, and the transformation was pretty much complete by the end of the 70's. And if you've got Mike Bossy on your roster, why risk him breaking a hand in a fight if a marginal player Garry Howatt can do the same thing? (The introduction of European stars, who didn't grow up in a system where fighting had a place, also had an effect - Kent Nilsson wasn't going to fight, no matter what.)

The basis for "The Code", then, is just simple logic and economics. It doesn't make sense to risk your most valuable assets by having them do a dangerous job if you have cheaper ones around that can do the same job. And if the other team has a 6'3, 230-pound guy who can't play much but is a deadly fighter, you sure as hell don't want your 5'11, 180-pound star centre taking him on.

Bettman actually seems to like the idea of cutting back the schedule. Maybe do that, space the games out a little more to allow players to recover, and reduce the roster size by two or three players to dry up some of the spots that would be used for a 10-point, 250 PIM player. I wouldn't mind seeing more of the stars stick up for themselves. The NHLPA won't like it, but if the Association winds up getting its back broken in the lockout, maybe it'll actually happen.

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Old
03-12-2004, 04:20 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jin
Lowe wouldn't have needed to, in the 10 seconds they were standing together Bertuzzi would have dropped the gloves when Lowe asked him to fight. If Bertuzzi skated away looking at the bench for help, I'm sure Lowe would have jumped him.

May hurt Tkachuk with a clean hit at the end of the regular season, first he fought Mellanby who is his equal, then he fought Lowe afterwards, you hurt a star player, you defend yourself. If a team feels that you are taking retrobution too far, maybe they start taking liberties on your players until you stop.
Funny, LOW did try to get Bert to drop gloves in the 2nd game w/ St. Louis this season -- Bert skated away and Low didn't jump him, despite the fact that Bert hurt Jackman in the prior game.

Further, Low and May are their teams respective goons. It is their job to fight, and usually they have to fight eachother, as neither teams stars want to fight the goons - something about being counter productive.

Nice try.

Does anyone remember the Dallas-Anaheim game a few years back when Modano went head first into the boards. I cant remember who took his legs out, but Hull jumped the guy then and there. Later in the game Niewendyke was taken out w/ a knee injury and Sydor fought the perp.

Modano came out and Stated he wanted no action taken against either player. Naslund should have done the same thing.

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Old
03-12-2004, 04:37 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frenzy1
Further, Low and May are their teams respective goons
May isnt Vancouvers goon, he's a servicable 4th liner...

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Old
03-12-2004, 04:38 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi
May isnt Vancouvers goon, he's a servicable 4th liner...
Sorry, I forgot to be Politically correct.

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Old
03-12-2004, 04:43 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frenzy1
Sorry, I forgot to be Politically correct.
To clarify, the Canucks' goon is Brookbank. May was just filling in the role of goon when the Canucks didn't have one after Brashear was traded. Not all fourth liners are goons.


THanks for the info Lard_Lad. Maybe with a reduced roster, the talent pool won't be as diluted adn we can see more skilled players instead of muckers.

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Old
03-12-2004, 06:40 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quat
Why not compare Forsberg with Bertuzzi? They are much closer in size and style of play no? .
NO!

THE CODE

Rule 1: Players must police themselves because the NHL won't do it for them except in too late, after the fact, media frenzie damage control situations.
Rule 2: All of the rules after rule 1 differ so much depending on who you talk to that 80% of the players will disagree with 80% of anyones opinion on the code unless it comes from someone who's been around for a long time like Scotty Bowman.
Rule 3: More than half the players will still disagree with more than half of what someone like Scotty Bowman says about the code.
Rule 4: As bad and unclear as the code is it is still more consistent than the NHL referee's "game management" interpretation of the rules.

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Old
03-13-2004, 06:15 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosbyfan
NO!

THE CODE

Rule 1: Players must police themselves because the NHL won't do it for them except in too late, after the fact, media frenzie damage control situations.
Rule 2: All of the rules after rule 1 differ so much depending on who you talk to that 80% of the players will disagree with 80% of anyones opinion on the code unless it comes from someone who's been around for a long time like Scotty Bowman.
Rule 3: More than half the players will still disagree with more than half of what someone like Scotty Bowman says about the code.
Rule 4: As bad and unclear as the code is it is still more consistent than the NHL referee's "game management" interpretation of the rules.
Nicely put, except I think you'd be hard pressed to prove Rule 3 completely. I think Scott's views would be consistent with every current player who still feels it is a privilege to play this game, and who believes there is an unwritten code. As far as I'm concerned (and I mean this honestly), ask Gretzky, Messier, and Mario what they think. I bet you notice it very much echoes the opinions of those from the "dirtier" yet more "honorable" days.

Nice job on the username, btw. I'm a Halifax/Dartmouth native who has seen why Sidney is going to be the be-all and end-all of future hockey stars.

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