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Old
03-12-2004, 11:19 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Higgy4
I dont hear any news outlets turning this into Canada vs. USA. I havent heard that one time. The only time I hear it is on these message boards.
Welcome to HFBoards, where it's ALWAYS an issue.

What stood out to me in that article was him saying that guys in the NFL, NBA and MLB keep their "criminal elements" outside of the game. These guys getting arrested all the time for (sometimes violent) criminal activity is OK because they "keep it off the field"? This is somehow better or more honorable than what goes on in SOME hockey games? I don't think so. Too many sweeping generalizations in that article for my taste.

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03-12-2004, 11:21 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by AlexandreTheNotSoGreat
When have I said i'll refuse to discuss anything. I'm open for discussing anything pertaining to the article. I just felt that it was written in a poor manner. You and I obviously got a different meaning from the first quotation I provided, maybe you're right and he isn't generalising Canada, but it certainly seems that way to me.

Maybe he was just talking about the "ugly" side of hockey in Canada, but, as I mentioned above, the article is written in a very generalised manner. People can and will take offense at the article because of the points I mentioned.

Now if you want to discuss the points raised in the article, I'll start it off. He does raise a serious issue that is in certain circles of Canada. He also uses examples to back this up. I'm not arguing with the evidence he provided, but should this be merely focused on Canadian players. What excludes other countries from the porblems in hockey. Just because more Canadians, statisically and from his memory, commited these vicious or dirty attacks, does not mean that other nationalities should be excluded. The title is "Bertuzzi a product of hockey's culture," and I fail to see the reason for the author to strictly focus on Canadian hockey players. Instead he only offers that "America has its share of dirty players, and certainly there are noteworthy Europeans who could be accused of the same, but clearly there is a trend here." So to justify his singling out of a country he says that it is a trend in Canada. This essay could have easily dealt with the mentality in the NHL itself, and not singled out Canada.

Better yet, why not offer some recommendations to change the Canadian hockey culture. I fail to see the reason for his constant attacking and accusations, as it accomplishes very little. It only angers those who are Canadians and not part of this "culture."
As I see it and as I understand Kelly sees it, the mentality of the NHL largely is the same as the mentality in canadian hockey. The only reason he is able to list canadian names more than europeans is that more canadian pass through that system at a young age. Now that we see more and more europeans passing through the canadian junior system we should expect more and more europeans to be added to that list. There is no reason whatsover not to expect that to be the case. It is not about bad people. It is about people learning to play hockey in a way that may end up being dangerous when tempers flare or when someone steps over the line. You still want him to point the finger at a few europeans for his points to have validity. I don't think that is what the article was about.

As for how to solve the problem, thats the hard part. It has to be on every level. Focusing and premiering skill over fighting. Focusing on letting leagues/referees handling justice and players handling the playing. Focusing on learning kids and young players respect other players and be hard on dangerous plays. Focusing on not having the junior leagues as gladiator arenas where you encourage kids to fight all the time. Focusing on learning kids that playing tough and physical doesn't equate to playing dirty. Being hard whenever someone goes over the line, at all levels. The Bertuzzi suspension is an excellent starting point. The NHL and the NHL teams are crucial in this. They are role models and it's time they start acting like ones. When they as a collective approve of thug behaviour, kids will think its ok.

I know these are pretty general, and it is hard to be specific when it's such a huge area. There are probably thousands of different ways of implementing and working towards this. Membleypeg mentioned a youth project on page three of this topic which seemed like a good initiative etc. There are probably thousands of people that are trying to make a difference at all levels of hockey.

And it is not only Canada that need doing this. Obviously this has to be done everywhere.


Last edited by Freudian: 03-12-2004 at 11:31 PM.
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Old
03-12-2004, 11:24 PM
  #78
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He's wrong. Everyone was immidiately shocked and appaled about what Bertuzzi did well before we found out how injured Moore was.

This is just more crappy journalism

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Old
03-13-2004, 02:12 AM
  #79
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to quote Buffaloed
Quote:
Jim Kelley was covering hockey before you were born. He's also a three time president of the Professional Hockey Writers Association and serves on the Hockey Hall of Fame selection committee.
Are you sure he's on the HHOF selection committee? Not trying to pick a fight, but he wasn't on the list I saw.

http://www.legendsofhockey.net/html/indselect.htm

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Old
03-13-2004, 03:03 AM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamcaper
Please check out this article which was posted on ESPN regarding the NHL and "Canadian" hockey in general. There are some very disturbing and upsetting remarks made about Canada and the mentality when it comes to the game. I'm submitting an email to Mr. Kelley voicing my displeasure and I urge you do the same please:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/column...jim&id=1757143
Done and done. I wish I had cut and pasted it before sending, as I was quite impressed with it. If anyone is able to follow up on his mailbag on ESPN, look for a message from Edmonton, Alberta.

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Old
03-13-2004, 09:45 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian
As I see it and as I understand Kelly sees it, the mentality of the NHL largely is the same as the mentality in canadian hockey. The only reason he is able to list canadian names more than europeans is that more canadian pass through that system at a young age. Now that we see more and more europeans passing through the canadian junior system we should expect more and more europeans to be added to that list. There is no reason whatsover not to expect that to be the case. It is not about bad people. It is about people learning to play hockey in a way that may end up being dangerous when tempers flare or when someone steps over the line. You still want him to point the finger at a few europeans for his points to have validity. I don't think that is what the article was about.
Find me one organization in the world that teaches people how to sucker punch opponents, and this argument might have some validity. You and Kelly are trying to fit Bertuzzi's actions into some kind of culture that is exclusive to Canadians. Even going to far as to blame similar violent acts by Euros and Americans as their being assimilated by Canadian hockey culture. Quite frankly, that is offensive.

And yet you try to argue that *I* am hung up about it being a "Canadian thing." Give me a break.

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Old
03-13-2004, 10:20 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snakeeye
Find me one organization in the world that teaches people how to sucker punch opponents, and this argument might have some validity. You and Kelly are trying to fit Bertuzzi's actions into some kind of culture that is exclusive to Canadians. Even going to far as to blame similar violent acts by Euros and Americans as their being assimilated by Canadian hockey culture. Quite frankly, that is offensive.

And yet you try to argue that *I* am hung up about it being a "Canadian thing." Give me a break.
This is not about the sucker punch.

You will find plenty of organizations that will teach him that getting back is desired. You will find plenty of organizations that encourage and reward getting back. You will find plenty of organizations that expect him to get revenge. Somewhere along the line he will learn that getting back is good. Then why is it surprising that sometimes when he (and other players from that culture) are trying to get someone back they step over the line? They come from a hockey culture where violence is the solution to on ice problems. Violent acts often end up different then "planned". Anyone who claims to be able to control how a violent payback end up is a liar.

That is what the problem is about.

And if you want to continue to be upset because plenty of those organizations are Canadian further discussion is pointless. We already established that. So I don't know why you decided to have another go at that merry-go-round.

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Old
03-13-2004, 11:43 AM
  #83
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I read the article and I don't think he was right in blaming it on Canadians, I'd say it's definetly not the Europeans at all but more of just a North American problem, but theres been Plenty of Americans with Cheap shot Gary Suter's had a couple most notably on Kariya, JR has had a few dirty hits, Hatcher on Jr and Guerin smoked some poor rookie with his stick in training camp at the begining of the season so it can't all be blamed on Canada, Though the Canadian players havn't been angels either.

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Old
03-13-2004, 11:53 AM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian
This is not about the sucker punch.

You will find plenty of organizations that will teach him that getting back is desired. You will find plenty of organizations that encourage and reward getting back. You will find plenty of organizations that expect him to get revenge. Somewhere along the line he will learn that getting back is good. Then why is it surprising that sometimes when he (and other players from that culture) are trying to get someone back they step over the line? They come from a hockey culture where violence is the solution to on ice problems. Violent acts often end up different then "planned". Anyone who claims to be able to control how a violent payback end up is a liar.

That is what the problem is about.

And if you want to continue to be upset because plenty of those organizations are Canadian further discussion is pointless. We already established that. So I don't know why you decided to have another go at that merry-go-round.
I'm just curious as to how you know what is and isn't taught and encouraged in these organizations? If you have some sort of inside knowledge, then by all means, I will respect what you have to say on the issue.

But, if by chance, you are just typing what you think goes on behind closed doors, then I would recommend stopping, because you *truly* have no idea what you're talking about.

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Old
03-13-2004, 12:10 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by battle axe
I'm just curious as to how you know what is and isn't taught and encouraged in these organizations? If you have some sort of inside knowledge, then by all means, I will respect what you have to say on the issue.

But, if by chance, you are just typing what you think goes on behind closed doors, then I would recommend stopping, because you *truly* have no idea what you're talking about.
That it's being taught is fairly obvious by the end result. Generations and generations of hockey players that view violent retribution as the correct response to on ice infractions. These players have no problem telling us it is being taught and encouraged. They think it is a good thing that it does.

If you want to deny the existance of that code, feel free.


Last edited by Freudian: 03-13-2004 at 12:25 PM.
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Old
03-13-2004, 12:47 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian
That it's being taught is fairly obvious by the end result. Generations and generations of hockey players that view violent retribution as the correct response to on ice infractions. These players have no problem telling us it is being taught and encouraged. They think it is a good thing that it does.

If you want to deny the existance of that code, feel free.
Oh I don't deny that there is a code in hockey that says that it is neccessary to exact some form of retribution as a response to certain infractions. But the same thing happens in baseball when a pitcher throws at a player as a response to a prior incident.

You see, this code is universal throughout sports. You make it seem like hockey is the only sport that has such a code. It just so happens that hockey is more conducive to violent acts, because body checking is legal. That is hockey. I never thought Moore's hit on Naslund was all that dirty. But it was a headshot to one of the best players in the game, intentional or not. It had to be dealt with. Unfortunately, it was not dealt with within the parameters of 'the code'.

I don't argue that teams expect that their players to police themselves to a certain degree. I played at a competetive level. But I never once heard a coach or a teamate call for the type of retribution that was dished out on Monday night.

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Old
03-13-2004, 02:04 PM
  #87
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Actually, it was dealt with within the parameters of 'the code'. Matt Cooke challenged Moore in the first period. They fought. Score settled, nobody hurt, move on.

Except nobody told Big Baby Bert, who acted on a code completely of his own making. As I said, Bertuzzi's actions do not fit within any code - written or unwritten - practiced or preached anywhere within Canadian hockey, or hockey in general.

And 'the code' doesnt just exist across all of sports, it exists across all of life, and all of history. A great many wars throughout mankind's existance have been started because one nation felt it was wronged by another, and felt retaliation was necessary. Notable examples being World War's I and II. To seek retribution for what you percieve as an attack on your person, those around you or your nation is a human trait.

But lets make generalizations about a nation because one individual decided to take things too far...

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Old
03-13-2004, 02:50 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snakeeye
Actually, it was dealt with within the parameters of 'the code'. Matt Cooke challenged Moore in the first period. They fought. Score settled, nobody hurt, move on.

Except nobody told Big Baby Bert, who acted on a code completely of his own making. As I said, Bertuzzi's actions do not fit within any code - written or unwritten - practiced or preached anywhere within Canadian hockey, or hockey in general.

And 'the code' doesnt just exist across all of sports, it exists across all of life, and all of history. A great many wars throughout mankind's existance have been started because one nation felt it was wronged by another, and felt retaliation was necessary. Notable examples being World War's I and II. To seek retribution for what you percieve as an attack on your person, those around you or your nation is a human trait.

But lets make generalizations about a nation because one individual decided to take things too far...
But that is the problem. It was part of the code. It only got out of hand. If Moore had gotten up afterwards it would have been part of the code and Bertuzzi would in some circles have been praised for sending the message that no one injures Näslund without paying.

Pretending Bertuzzi was some sort of renegade that was not doing what people expected of him (but worse) is being dishonest. He was doing exactly what people expected of him. He just took it too far.

This type of thing will happen again and again. Ultimately someone will be killed on the ice. And we can be fairly certain many will want to bury their heads in the sand when it happens, proclaiming that it was an isolated incident while applauding the next guy who punches someone in the name of justice, accountability and good old hockey.

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Old
03-13-2004, 03:37 PM
  #89
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Umm no, Bertuzzi did not do anything remotely close to what was expected of him.

Moore already fought Cooke. Moore already answered for himself according to the code. What was expected of Bertuzzi is nothing. Nothing at all.

If it was a 3-2 game, Bertuzzi wouldnt have had the balls to do anything. But in an 8-2 game, Bertuzzi was free to take it upon himself to try and end Moore's carreer. None of this is part of the code.

Thats the problem. Bertuzzi's actions are his own, and his alone. He wasnt acting out any part of the code.

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Old
03-13-2004, 03:50 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snakeeye
Umm no, Bertuzzi did not do anything remotely close to what was expected of him.

Moore already fought Cooke. Moore already answered for himself according to the code. What was expected of Bertuzzi is nothing. Nothing at all.

If it was a 3-2 game, Bertuzzi wouldnt have had the balls to do anything. But in an 8-2 game, Bertuzzi was free to take it upon himself to try and end Moore's carreer. None of this is part of the code.

Thats the problem. Bertuzzi's actions are his own, and his alone. He wasnt acting out any part of the code.
Canuck players challenged Moore all night long, even after Moore had fought Cooke. Isn't it obvious Canuck players were deliberately going after Moore? It was not like everything seemed ok after Moore had answered the bell. The Canuck players were not at all satisfied by that (even more so when the game became really lopsided).

What you seem to be saying is that not only Bertuzzi misunderstood the code, but also May, Pronger, Ruutu and whoever else on the Canucks that wanted a piece of Moore after the fight misunderstood the code. Is that what you believe?

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Old
03-13-2004, 04:52 PM
  #91
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I really like the way that the stats were figured in that article. Kelly admits that over 50% of NHL players are Canadians, and he even admits that that number is decreasing. Yet, he cannot figure out why Canadians represent the majority of all time penalty minute leaders. He just assumes that it must be because we encourage this kind of play more in Canada than the rest of the world.

I would suggest that now that Canadians represent close to 50% of the total players, that there should be a more representative assesment of the figures. Simply evaluate the last 3 years or so, and determine the nationality of the players with the highest penalty minutes over those years. If Canadians accounts for signifigantly more than 50% of those players then Kelly may have a point.

Kelly's figure are based off of all time figures, this includes times in hockey history when Canadians were a far higher percentage of the players in the league.

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Old
03-13-2004, 05:03 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian
Canuck players challenged Moore all night long, even after Moore had fought Cooke. Isn't it obvious Canuck players were deliberately going after Moore? It was not like everything seemed ok after Moore had answered the bell. The Canuck players were not at all satisfied by that (even more so when the game became really lopsided).

What you seem to be saying is that not only Bertuzzi misunderstood the code, but also May, Pronger, Ruutu and whoever else on the Canucks that wanted a piece of Moore after the fight misunderstood the code. Is that what you believe?
More accurately, they ignored the code. The Canucks as a team took it upon themselves to focus on Moore, rather than the game of hockey. As such, they emabarrassed themselves before Bertuzzi finished things off.

I dont know what kind of code the Canucks play under, but it didnt do them any favours that night.

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