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Old
09-15-2007, 01:37 AM
  #51
the zamboni
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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
That's rather the problem, isn't it, Singin? Hossa has shown that he can be productive only when playing with Jagr. But in order for him to play there, it means that players who are much more suited for the role of top liners have to get shifted out of that role.
I disagree with this...he has shown he can be productive when not playing on the 4th line! It makes sense to put him with Gomez and Jagr, because he has shown that he can produce there. If Straka goes there instead of him, it doesn't make much sense, because then Hossa is pretty much the odd man out.

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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
I think that there are 7 players on the roster, 5 of them wings, who have shown more than Hossa has in a top-6 forward role. In order to get Hossa to fit the picture, you have to start to rearrange the puzzle. The question should not be "How can we get Hossa to be the most productive?" THe fact is that the top line would be more productive as a whole, if Straka is the LW. And the 2nd line would be more productive if Avery or Pruch are the LW.
Just out of curiosity, who are the 7 players that you mention? It's too early to tell if the first line would be more productive with Straka or Hossa. Renney will see which one of them fits best.

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09-15-2007, 02:25 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by the zamboni View Post
I disagree with this...he has shown he can be productive when not playing on the 4th line! It makes sense to put him with Gomez and Jagr, because he has shown that he can produce there. If Straka goes there instead of him, it doesn't make much sense, because then Hossa is pretty much the odd man out.



Just out of curiosity, who are the 7 players that you mention? It's too early to tell if the first line would be more productive with Straka or Hossa. Renney will see which one of them fits best.
i disagree with your point about putting hossa with jagr because he can produce there. straka can produce there too and can and will probably produce double whatever numbers hossa puts up. hossa is an nhl player and he should be able to produce with other players other than jagr. say jagr retires after this season, does that mean we dont resign hossa because the only guy he can play with is jagr? he needs to learn how to play with other linemates (and i dont mean betts you can try him out on the 2nd or 3rd line during preseason).

i just feel straka is the better fit he played great with jagr for 2 seasons, hossa.... 11-13 games.

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09-15-2007, 04:28 AM
  #53
Ola
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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
Ola, not for nothing, but on a team with Cup aspirations, playing a stiff like Isbister on the top line for any stretch of time, can never be an option.
TB, for a team with cup aspiration, playing without a system 20 minutes per game can never be a option.

Maybe 1993-1994, but not in 07', not in 1999, not in 2002; that if anything have been obvious here in NY. Its a team game.

In the game of hockey today Canada can't even beat the Swiss unless they get their team game gooing. A team like Florida in 1996 can make the SC finals, a team that plays like we did through 98-04 can never make a SC final. Thats how it is in the game today, a team with guys like Lowery, Jody Hull, Lindsay, Rob Niedermayer, Mellanby among others always got a better chance to win if they play a team game then a bunch of individuals; even if they are named Bure, Jagr, Mesier, Holik, Kovalev, Carter and Nedbed.

Tampa won with Ruslan Fedetenko on the top 2 lines. Marcel Hossa can develop into a Ruslan Fedetenko for us.


Last edited by Ola: 09-15-2007 at 04:40 AM.
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09-15-2007, 04:44 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by the zamboni View Post
I disagree with this...he has shown he can be productive when not playing on the 4th line! It makes sense to put him with Gomez and Jagr, because he has shown that he can produce there. If Straka goes there instead of him, it doesn't make much sense, because then Hossa is pretty much the odd man out.
Hossa scored almost 2 ppg in the WHL if I remember correctly. In the SEL he scored almost a goal a game the first half of the season, then he went on and scored like 2 goals in the last 25 games... Hossa also scored around a PPG for around 10 games with Rucinsky and Rucchin.

IMO, if Marcel Hossa plays like he did for us his first year here he shouldn't even be considered for the 1st line. If he plays like he did early last season he shouldn't get it. But if he can build on what he showed late last season -- then he could turn into a good option.

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09-15-2007, 05:51 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Hossa scored almost 2 ppg in the WHL if I remember correctly. In the SEL he scored almost a goal a game the first half of the season, then he went on and scored like 2 goals in the last 25 games... Hossa also scored around a PPG for around 10 games with Rucinsky and Rucchin.

IMO, if Marcel Hossa plays like he did for us his first year here he shouldn't even be considered for the 1st line. If he plays like he did early last season he shouldn't get it. But if he can build on what he showed late last season -- then he could turn into a good option.
he shouldnt be a top line player. He's a player who can help us with line flexibility and he can move lines when and where needed. however he is not good enough for a permenant spot on Jagr's line.

Straka - Gomez - Jagr

That has speed, skill and intelligence and a whole lotta goals!!

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09-15-2007, 08:55 AM
  #56
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Training camp is for experimentation. Just the way we were, Renney was obviously thinking about various line combinations all summer and tinkering with different combinations. How the Rangers look in three weeks may or may not be how they look now so I wouldn't get to worked up over things.
The hot streak the Rangers went on last year coincided with Hossa being put on the first line and he scored a majority of his goals in that brief stretch before he was hurt. I had been a major "knocker" of him before that and could not understand Renney's loyalty to him but he certainly showed me something during that time. I think that when all is said and done Straka will be back on that line. But with Hossa there it adds a different element to the lines mode of attack and is certainly interesting to contemplate. I don't doubt Hossa's skill level or physical tools but I still doubt his ability to play at a high level for an extended stretch. Time will tell.
Does Callahan have the all-ice vision and passing ability to play center? I don't know that either; watching him last year I thought of him as a winger with a winger's skillset. The idea of a speed 3rd line is certainly interesting and one I was looking forward to before Cullen was traded. But I still think that if Dubinsky has a strong camp, his skills are perfectly suited to a third line center role.
Training camp is fun because of all these potential matches and I intent to just sit back and enjoy thinking about all these possibilities.

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09-15-2007, 09:50 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Hossa scored almost 2 ppg in the WHL if I remember correctly. In the SEL he scored almost a goal a game the first half of the season, then he went on and scored like 2 goals in the last 25 games... Hossa also scored around a PPG for around 10 games with Rucinsky and Rucchin.
Nah, he had 90 points in 58 games in his last junior year, which is good, but not near 2 PPG.

For a vague and not really useful reference, Ryan Hollweg scored 70 points in 58 games in his last year of juniors (also in the WHL).

Hossa has never put up spectacular numbers, no matter where he's played. He's always had that hint of promise that makes him intriguing, but hasn't quite put it together.

In my mind, the whole "if he plays as well with Jagr as he showed last year" statement hinges greatly on the word "if". If he can continue to play well and put maybe 20 goals, 60 points, then I'd be pretty damn happy. Considering he's never broken 20 points, however, I'm not ready to act like he's the most logical choice for 1st line duty.

I'm willing to give him a shot, but I think some people are going overboard in their assessments of him.

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09-15-2007, 10:36 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by the zamboni View Post
I disagree with this...he has shown he can be productive when not playing on the 4th line! It makes sense to put him with Gomez and Jagr, because he has shown that he can produce there. If Straka goes there instead of him, it doesn't make much sense, because then Hossa is pretty much the odd man out.
When was he productive on a third line? How about a 2nd? He was productive with Jagr for an unreal stretch of 11 games. A stretch that is highly doubtfull he will attain again. Even if he does get hot.

If it makes sense to put him with Gomez and Jagr becuase he has shown that he can produce with Jagr (again, really only in a span of a few weeks), then explain to me why it does not make sense to put Prucha there? Last I checked, Jagr had his greatest offensive year with Prucha spending almost two months there. And Prucha has also shown that he can produce there. And for a much longer stretch of time than Hossa.

Moving Straka, an All-Star, a player with great chemistry with Jagr, and a proven top-liner with Jagr to a much more limited 3rd line role just so that Hossa can be productive really makes sense?
Quote:
Just out of curiosity, who are the 7 players that you mention?
Gomez, Drury, Jagr, Shanny, Straka, Avery & Prucha.
Quote:
It's too early to tell if the first line would be more productive with Straka or Hossa.
Not if you use history as a judge, instead of an 11 game span.
Quote:
Renney will see which one of them fits best.
Renney is no stranger to putting out bizzare line combinations that are anything but "the best". His decisions and combinations have not put his team into the best positition for success a good amount of times.

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Old
09-15-2007, 10:38 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
TB, for a team with cup aspiration, playing without a system 20 minutes per game can never be a option.
Ola,
Sorry, but that went by a little too fast for me. I am not getting your point here.

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09-15-2007, 10:41 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
Hossa has never put up spectacular numbers, no matter where he's played. He's always had that hint of promise that makes him intriguing, but hasn't quite put it together.

In my mind, the whole "if he plays as well with Jagr as he showed last year" statement hinges greatly on the word "if". If he can continue to play well and put maybe 20 goals, 60 points, then I'd be pretty damn happy. Considering he's never broken 20 points, however, I'm not ready to act like he's the most logical choice for 1st line duty.

I'm willing to give him a shot, but I think some people are going overboard in their assessments of him.
Lev,
I think that you have managed to say my opinion on him in a much better way than I have.

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09-15-2007, 12:00 PM
  #61
WhipNash27
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Oh stop it everyone. Renney knows these players a whole heck of a lot more than any of you do. He'll make everything work. I think the line combos yesterday were actually pretty good and if they work who's to complain? You're all like back seat drivers. I know this is a message board and all, but don't tell the driver how to drive and don't tell the coach how to coach.

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09-15-2007, 12:38 PM
  #62
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Hossa wasn't just playing a little better on Jagr's line, the team was winning and he was on a 50-goal pace.

It's simple: if he even comes CLOSE to that production again, you leave him there. Heck, if he scores 18 pts, but the team wins with Hossa on the first line, you leave him there.

BUT... If it doesn't, there's one of your first choices for mixing things up.

What I don't understand is why people are so eager to axe him before he proves whether or not it WAS a fluke. That's why we talk about Hossa "haters" so much. If we were talking about any other player, people would be falling over themselves to see him on the first line at least to start the season.

50-goal pace, people!

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09-15-2007, 01:22 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
Hossa wasn't just playing a little better on Jagr's line, the team was winning and he was on a 50-goal pace.

It's simple: if he even comes CLOSE to that production again, you leave him there. Heck, if he scores 18 pts, but the team wins with Hossa on the first line, you leave him there.

BUT... If it doesn't, there's one of your first choices for mixing things up.

What I don't understand is why people are so eager to axe him before he proves whether or not it WAS a fluke. That's why we talk about Hossa "haters" so much. If we were talking about any other player, people would be falling over themselves to see him on the first line at least to start the season.

50-goal pace, people!
Brooklyn, i take it you are not a hater but a lover?!?!

Hossa has had opportunities at 2 clubs for a few years now. He hasnt put much on the scoreboard at any time and one purple patch doesnt make him a 50 goal scorer.... heck, a guy that scores a goal in the 1st 4 or 5 games of the year is on a run, and on course for 82 goals but you dont put him necessarily on the 1st line....

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09-15-2007, 02:25 PM
  #64
Ola
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Ola,
Sorry, but that went by a little too fast for me. I am not getting your point here.
I agree with you that it sucks to have Isbister on a 1st line, but its worse to have a unit that cannot stick to the system. Prucha-Straka/Nyls-Jagr couldn't do that, especially not with Malik on the same side as Prucha...

If its between Prucha and Isbister on that unit -- you go with the guy who can allow the unit to play within the system.

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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
In my mind, the whole "if he plays as well with Jagr as he showed last year" statement hinges greatly on the word "if". If he can continue to play well and put maybe 20 goals, 60 points, then I'd be pretty damn happy. Considering he's never broken 20 points, however, I'm not ready to act like he's the most logical choice for 1st line duty.
I agree. I am not sold on his offensive skills. I don't think its as much about not putting it together as others, I just don't see the pure gods there to start with.

His gods are close, I think he is just very solid all around, but that extra have been missing in the attacking zone. Though I am all for giving him a chance; because if he can play like he did late last season for a longer period of time he could defenitly reach 60 pts which is extremely good for someone not getting regular PP time.

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09-15-2007, 10:48 PM
  #65
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[QUOTE=PruBlue25;10421267]Renney knows these players a whole heck of a lot more than any of you do. He'll make everything work.

I think the line combos yesterday were actually pretty good and if they work who's to complain? You're all like back seat drivers. I know this is a message board and all, but don't tell the driver how to drive and don't tell the coach how to coach.[/QUOTYeah...management cannot possibly make a mistake, can they? Betts and Krog playing on the 2nd line was a stroke of genius.

But who are we to complaign? We are just the back seat drivers to obvious genius. Please refrain from posting any opposing posts.

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09-16-2007, 07:01 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by cycleandshoot View Post
Didnt see that coming.....obviously just 1st day at camp but an interesting idea.


http://rangers.lohudblogs.com/

Straka Cally Prucha


guess this mean Hossa on the 1st line......his job to lose


I like it
I like that! i love seeing prooch and cally on the same line because their both fast and both can score, along with strats

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09-16-2007, 01:05 PM
  #67
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IMO, that line is tooooo small....

straka-prucha-callahan

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09-16-2007, 01:21 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
IMO, that line is tooooo small....

straka-prucha-callahan
Small yeah, but as much grit and guts as any line if you ask me.

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09-16-2007, 01:31 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by NYRJurgen88 View Post
Brooklyn, i take it you are not a hater but a lover?!?!
Yup. Always have been since we first acquired him.

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Originally Posted by NYRJurgen88 View Post
Hossa has had opportunities at 2 clubs for a few years now. He hasnt put much on the scoreboard at any time and one purple patch doesnt make him a 50 goal scorer.... heck, a guy that scores a goal in the 1st 4 or 5 games of the year is on a run, and on course for 82 goals but you dont put him necessarily on the 1st line....
Look, I don't think that he'll become a 50-goal scorer. But it's also not like we're dealing with a couple of hot games in a row. Hossa was great for two solid weeks, then showed a lot of heart coming back early for the POs (scored a goal) then got reinjured and apparently is playing great with Gomez and Jagr early in camp. Oh yeah, and Jagr is on record saying he likes playing with him.

As long as Marcel's still showing the same form, he should stay on the top line. If he reverts to his old self and goes cold for a long stretch, then he should be demoted again. That's all I'm saying.

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09-16-2007, 03:05 PM
  #70
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Brf...

Jagr pretty much has stated he likes playing with whoever is on his line. He's liked playing with Straka, Nylander, Prucha, as well as Isbister.

I understand your position on Hossa, but what about Straka? Why can't he start on a top line and get a chance to increase his value going into next year's UFA season? Hasn't Straka earned that oppotunity too? Why wait until Hossa falters when in the last two seasons Straka has rarely faltered?

We'll see how it shakes out. There still are many variables. Personally, if Straka ends up with Cally and Prucha I'd be a bit upset - it's a line that would work hard but I don't seee them getting it done.. Avery's better in that position, as would be Hossa, if Cally could center that line. There still is Dubi out there competing for that position.

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Old
09-16-2007, 03:17 PM
  #71
Ola
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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
management cannot possibly make a mistake, can they? Betts and Krog playing on the 2nd line was a stroke of genius.

But who are we to complaign? We are just the back seat drivers to obvious genius. Please refrain from posting any opposing posts.
Here I agree with you.

When there comes to lineup decisions and stuff like that there is no right and wrong, and I am sure Renney would be the first one to tell anyone that.

Despite these guys knows a ton more then us about the game, when it comes to the lineup and matching during the game its hardly rocketscience.

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