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Who do you think the Rangers will end up missing the most this season?

View Poll Results: Who will the Rangers end up missing the most this season?
Michael Nylander 43 27.04%
Matt Cullen 23 14.47%
Kevin Weekes 6 3.77%
Jed Ortmeyer 54 33.96%
Brad Isbister 1 0.63%
No one 32 20.13%
Voters: 159. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
09-19-2007, 07:29 PM
  #51
NYR94
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None. Drury replaces Cullen and Ortmeyer and more, Gomez is better than Nylander, Weekes was disappointing and Valiquette will probably at least match him, and Isbister I don't know why he's an option. He injured Luongo's collarbone a little bit with a shot so maybe if the Rangers want Lundqvist to get hurt they could have a hard time replacing Isbister.

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Old
09-19-2007, 07:35 PM
  #52
Fletch
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Did I want Jagr out there?

I think I'd take Jagr out there over JORt. Jagr faced top lines with success all season long. JOrt did not. And when he did, it was often a scramble that made me nervous. Sorry I didn't say what I meant in the original post. I seemed to have said 'but without talent, all that hard work and heart get you nowhere'. It's not nowhere, but it often lands you on fourth lines, which are needed, but highly expendable, and the direction the Rangers are going, you can see the fourth line playing a few less minutes this season compared to last and it could be more of a grinding/fighting line as opposed to checking.

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09-19-2007, 08:04 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
I think I'd take Jagr out there over JORt. Jagr faced top lines with success all season long. JOrt did not. And when he did, it was often a scramble that made me nervous. Sorry I didn't say what I meant in the original post. I seemed to have said 'but without talent, all that hard work and heart get you nowhere'. It's not nowhere, but it often lands you on fourth lines, which are needed, but highly expendable, and the direction the Rangers are going, you can see the fourth line playing a few less minutes this season compared to last and it could be more of a grinding/fighting line as opposed to checking.
fletch, jagr has success against top lines because he is such an offensive force. he controls the puck. how often do you see him playing defense when he is out there. i know that in the second half of the season there was more of a defensive game to the 1st line but still its jagr's offensive game that makes him successful. now one thing to remember about game 5 was that buffalo pulled the goalie and had a man advantage, basically a power play. going by your logic of jagr being successful against top lines, he should also be our best penalty killer. mean while, jagr never kills penalties. and you say that ortmeyer going against a teams top lines is often a scramble... what was it when jagr was on the ice in game 5. there were guys falling down in front of the net, it was a mess.

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09-19-2007, 08:23 PM
  #54
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Jagr doesn't kill penalties...

because it would kill him. He already averages 22 minutes per night - with PK it would be 25 minutes - I think that's unreasonable. I'm guess that the players who lead the NHL all-time in empty net goals are the Gretzkys and Jagrs of the world, not the Ortmeyers. Why might that be? Why are many of these non-defensive players so often found out on the ice in the last minute of play? I understand Jagr doesn't play defense, but the hope is the Rangers defense gets the puck to Jagr and he seals the deal, as opposed to a wild scramble inside the Rangers' defensive zone, which is what happens in Ortmeyer's out there.

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09-19-2007, 08:33 PM
  #55
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I vote for Nylander.

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Old
09-19-2007, 08:38 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
because it would kill him. He already averages 22 minutes per night - with PK it would be 25 minutes - I think that's unreasonable. I'm guess that the players who lead the NHL all-time in empty net goals are the Gretzkys and Jagrs of the world, not the Ortmeyers. Why might that be? Why are many of these non-defensive players so often found out on the ice in the last minute of play? I understand Jagr doesn't play defense, but the hope is the Rangers defense gets the puck to Jagr and he seals the deal, as opposed to a wild scramble inside the Rangers' defensive zone, which is what happens in Ortmeyer's out there.
so are you saying that jagr is our best pker, but just doesn't kill penalties? fletch again, look at the end of period 3 in that game. that was some of the ugliest hockey i've seen the rangers play in the last couple of years. the gretzkys and jagrs of the world lead in empty net goals because if they are put out there, they are there to score and its not to hard for a guy like gretzky or jagr to shoot from the red line at an empty net. while ortmeyer is put out there to play defense in order to insure a win. bottom line is it back fired and not only did it back fire but with jagr the guy you say is best against a teams top line, the rangers looked terrible it wasn't even a scramble it was a disaster. forget about game 6 that was the end of our season and run at the cup.

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Old
09-20-2007, 08:37 AM
  #57
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Few things devito...

first, your best defensive player doesn't necessarily have to be your best PKer. Kovalev was a decent PKer, but was never considered to even be good defensively. Playing at even strength and on the PK are two different disciplines. It involves a different mindset. And in the end, the team's best PKer is its goalie. Very often you see teams' best offensive players out there on the PK, and while it's for that odd-man rush, do teams really risk giving up a goal for the lower percentage scoring chance? No. Is a good PKer necessarily the guy that's blocking a bunch of shots? Considering that realistically a forward may be blocking less than one shot per game (as a reference, Ortmeyer blocked 30 shots in 41 games - not near 7th in the league as you suggested (I'm basing this off BkS meaning blocked shots on NHL.com)) therefore blocked shots is not the biggest component of a decent PKer. Clogging the passing lanes and getting to the puck quickly and clearing the zone are more important than blocking shots. Jagr does do this well. Is he the team's best PKer? Probably not, but if he was killing penalties, I gather he'd do just fine.

I'm not going to get a chance to look at the third period again. However, it's one third period among many ones that didn't look ugly. Rivera lost the World Series a few seasons ago due to a blown save - should Torre have stopped bringing him out in the 9th as a result? Gotta look past one game. Can't win 'em all. Throughout the season it worked putting Jagr out there in the last minute. Throughout Gretzky's career it worked putting him out there in the last minute. Coaches very often prefer to have those guys out there over the Ortmeyer's - yeah, it's because they can score, but also they can skate the puck out of the zone to get that scoring opp, as opposed to Jed, who may clear the zone, but will just back up as the opposing team regroups and attacks again, wearing down the defense. It didn't work in game 6, but there's obviously no guarantee that an all-defensive group who would obviously be overmatched would have worked either. Coaches will go with what they know has worked for them in the past - Renney did, and they lost. I guess he'd put Jagr out there again to seal the victory if given the opportunity.

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09-20-2007, 11:50 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Blueshirt Brawler View Post
I hope you are kidding with that line. Nylander put together a very good season and topped it off with a great postseason but now you are saying he's a better performer than Gomez or Drury? I think these two guys are going to open your eyes this season for sure.
I'm not kidding. Let's talk about the subject, say, by Thanksgiving. Should my eyes be wide open by then, I'd gladly let you know.

Straka-Nylander-Jarg was one of top lines in the entire NHL. There was no reason to fix something that hasn't been broken. I officially predict Nyls will be traded back to NYR at some point. He is cheap.

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09-20-2007, 11:56 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
first, your best defensive player doesn't necessarily have to be your best PKer. Kovalev was a decent PKer, but was never considered to even be good defensively. Playing at even strength and on the PK are two different disciplines. It involves a different mindset. And in the end, the team's best PKer is its goalie. Very often you see teams' best offensive players out there on the PK, and while it's for that odd-man rush, do teams really risk giving up a goal for the lower percentage scoring chance? No. Is a good PKer necessarily the guy that's blocking a bunch of shots? Considering that realistically a forward may be blocking less than one shot per game (as a reference, Ortmeyer blocked 30 shots in 41 games - not near 7th in the league as you suggested (I'm basing this off BkS meaning blocked shots on NHL.com)) therefore blocked shots is not the biggest component of a decent PKer. Clogging the passing lanes and getting to the puck quickly and clearing the zone are more important than blocking shots. Jagr does do this well. Is he the team's best PKer? Probably not, but if he was killing penalties, I gather he'd do just fine.

I'm not going to get a chance to look at the third period again. However, it's one third period among many ones that didn't look ugly. Rivera lost the World Series a few seasons ago due to a blown save - should Torre have stopped bringing him out in the 9th as a result? Gotta look past one game. Can't win 'em all. Throughout the season it worked putting Jagr out there in the last minute. Throughout Gretzky's career it worked putting him out there in the last minute. Coaches very often prefer to have those guys out there over the Ortmeyer's - yeah, it's because they can score, but also they can skate the puck out of the zone to get that scoring opp, as opposed to Jed, who may clear the zone, but will just back up as the opposing team regroups and attacks again, wearing down the defense. It didn't work in game 6, but there's obviously no guarantee that an all-defensive group who would obviously be overmatched would have worked either. Coaches will go with what they know has worked for them in the past - Renney did, and they lost. I guess he'd put Jagr out there again to seal the victory if given the opportunity.
your right he wasn't 7th last year... it was 2 years ago i read the stat wrong my bad. but if blocking shots isn't the biggest component to a good pker, what is? its not short handed goals, those are often lucky breaks and occur because of bad play by the team on the power play. a pk is out there to first and foremost kill the penalty not score short handed goals and ortmeyer was our best pker (besides henrik).

so are you saying that joe torre should bring in jagr? dont bring rivera into this. and leave gretzky out to, no one touches gretzky he could go out there in the last minute blindfolded and score an empty net goal.

now also remember that jagr wasn't supposed to be on the ice for that goal. tytuin iced the puck which kept jagr out there. renney WAS going to take him off (although i feel that any other line should have been out there to begin with). so to say that renney put jagr out there till the end i think is a false statement because he was going to use the line change. you said very often a teams best players are on the pk, thats not the case for the rangers the last 2 years. towards the end of last season yes renney did change it up and in the playoffs, but overall the last 2 years not really. while an empty net goal insures a win faster than just killing the time, everyone is on the ice to first, stop the opponent from scoring. if the empty net goal isn't a possibilty than there is a greater chance that the other team scores while jagr is out there.

now if you want jagr out there that is fine but imo that is a bad choice. truth is it might work it might not, but i think if you ask renney if he could play game 5 over again he would say the 1st line is on the bench that last minute.


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Old
09-20-2007, 11:57 AM
  #60
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I'm not kidding. Let's talk about the subject, say, by Thanksgiving. Should my eyes be wide open by then, I'd gladly let you know.

Straka-Nylander-Jarg was one of top lines in the entire NHL. There was no reason to fix something that hasn't been broken. I officially predict Nyls will be traded back to NYR at some point. He is cheap.
i love thanksgiving

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09-20-2007, 12:13 PM
  #61
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devito...

my answer to what's more important than blocking shots was contained in my long, diatribe-like e-mail: "Clogging the passing lanes and getting to the puck quickly and clearing the zone are more important than blocking shots". Realistically, each shift doesn't contain a blocked shot. Getting the stick out there and blocking the passing lanes are quite important. Clearing the zone is very important too. Both are more common on a PK too because, as mentioned, each successful PK may contain 2-3-4 zone clears and no blocked shots. Blocked shots is nice - of course there are guys who get credit for blocking shots which also means going down onto the ice and creating a 5-on-3 down low if that blocked shot is not successfully cleared and you have a forward on the ice.

I throw Gretzky out there as an example of a player who wasn't very good defensively yet seemed to be out there in the last minute of a close game. Lots of offensive-minded players are. That's the point. And yes, Torre should bring out Jagr; I think Mariano's arm is getting tired and he makes me nervous with each outing.

And yes, Renney was going to take him out, but had him out there with less than 2 minutes to play also.

And I agree everyone's out there to stop the other team from scoring in the last minute or so with the empty net. Of course, having Jagr out there makes the opposition think about something other than putting the puck in the opposition's net. So for one thing, you get into the head of the guy covering the point. I have seen Ortmeyer out there late in games in the past - just like any two-minute drill, it's a hairy scene that keeps you on your seat because they often are over-matched by the offensive talent on the ice.

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09-20-2007, 12:26 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
my answer to what's more important than blocking shots was contained in my long, diatribe-like e-mail: "Clogging the passing lanes and getting to the puck quickly and clearing the zone are more important than blocking shots". Realistically, each shift doesn't contain a blocked shot. Getting the stick out there and blocking the passing lanes are quite important. Clearing the zone is very important too. Both are more common on a PK too because, as mentioned, each successful PK may contain 2-3-4 zone clears and no blocked shots. Blocked shots is nice - of course there are guys who get credit for blocking shots which also means going down onto the ice and creating a 5-on-3 down low if that blocked shot is not successfully cleared and you have a forward on the ice.

I throw Gretzky out there as an example of a player who wasn't very good defensively yet seemed to be out there in the last minute of a close game. Lots of offensive-minded players are. That's the point. And yes, Torre should bring out Jagr; I think Mariano's arm is getting tired and he makes me nervous with each outing.

And yes, Renney was going to take him out, but had him out there with less than 2 minutes to play also.

And I agree everyone's out there to stop the other team from scoring in the last minute or so with the empty net. Of course, having Jagr out there makes the opposition think about something other than putting the puck in the opposition's net. So for one thing, you get into the head of the guy covering the point. I have seen Ortmeyer out there late in games in the past - just like any two-minute drill, it's a hairy scene that keeps you on your seat because they often are over-matched by the offensive talent on the ice.
in the most significant of games it didn't work. if you want jagr fine but i'll take a scoreless last minute.

rivera threw i think 34 pitches last night... might not be a bad idea actually. i bet jagr can throw a filthy 12-6 curve.

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09-20-2007, 12:55 PM
  #63
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Theyll miss the old jerseys the most.

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09-20-2007, 03:19 PM
  #64
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Of course, having Jagr out there makes the opposition think about something other than putting the puck in the opposition's net.
No way dude. Not a hope. If I'm a scorer, I'd LOVE to see Jagr out there in the last minute... because I know Jagr's thinking about scoring first, defense second.

I'd be more worried with Jed or anyone else out there, because they'd shut me down before Jagr would.

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09-21-2007, 08:27 AM
  #65
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Hanny...

do you really think NHL defensemen think that way? You don't think they need to watch Jagr just in case? And Jagr does do more than sit there and wait for the puck to come to him.

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09-21-2007, 10:27 AM
  #66
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weekes got votes?

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09-21-2007, 10:59 AM
  #67
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Weekes...

may've been important to Henke. He appeared to be a good team player and a good friend to Henke. Further, he wasn't that bad as a backup.

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