HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > New York Rangers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Gomez really better then Nylander

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
09-15-2007, 02:03 PM
  #176
NYRJurgen88
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Country: Wales
Posts: 1,334
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to NYRJurgen88
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
see thats the reason, i think the rangers went out and got both, after jagr leaves, and when shanahan and straka retire and the defense is re-worked, there will be a lot of very good young prospects coming up......gomez and drury are the type of player we want our prospects to learn from....hard-working, two way players who can score and not back down from the spotlight. i know they got paid 7 million a year, we have been over that, but i think these two players are two of the better players in the league for our prospects to learn from.....plus they will put up 140 points collectively easily
agree on all of that. Role models for our talented younger players will be an important issue in 2, 3 years. These guys, especially Drury will be great guys to learn from....

NYRJurgen88 is offline  
Old
09-15-2007, 02:41 PM
  #177
Ola
Registered User
 
Ola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Sweden
Country: Sweden
Posts: 19,019
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeds2StepOpus View Post
...and just as often in his career, Nylander was not willing to take the hit.....to make the play.

No, Gomez is not going to go into the corners and kill opponents, all season long...game in.....game out. But he will muck it up and be more physical when it's a big game and in the Post Season.

I've probably watched more Devils games in the last 10-12 years, than most Devils fans. Some of the comments about Gomez are hilarious. The guy's a gamer and knows what it takes to win a Cup......or two. He's also highly-skilled and more defensively responsible than Nylander. That doesn't mean Gomez is Guy Carbonneau, but he's an improvement/upgrade over Nylander......on many levels.

Yeah Nylander has been on some bad teams through out his career, but just as often he has been a part of the problem; part of the reason his teams were bad. I've been watching this guy when he was with the Flames, the Blackhawks...the Caps; hell, I remember when he played for the Hartford Whalers! The guy has some good attributes, but he also has some really bad attributes, too. They can hurt his team as often (usually more often) than he helps his team with his offensive skill. Defensively, he's always been MIA and extremely selective about his defensive responsibility.

Devils fans coming in here and denigrating Gomez, now; is just typical Devils fans nonsense. When a player is on their team, their the best on the planet at what they do and they blow the guy 10 times a day. When the guiy leaves the Devils, he's a dog.

All the talk you hear out of them of (insert any Devils player in the last 12 years) being an extremely defensively responsible, hard-nosed, team player who excells and works hard in all zones of the ice; suddenly turns into ...." the guy's a dog, was lazy and wasn't defensively responsible....blah...blah...blah. Oh did I mention he'll never take the body or battle in the corners? "

I can't even count how may Devils fans have praised and worshipped Gomez, for years. As soon as they find out he may be leaving the Devils for a better contract and change of scenary; he becomes a not-so-good player.
What you and many others are saying is that Nylander isn't a great player because he is a chicken; I just don't agree with that.

I agree that he isn't nearly a perfect hockeyplayer, though I just have never noticed him not beeing willing to pay any kind of price to perform well in the game of hockey.

He might be somewhat of a nutjob, but thats another issue.

I saw Nyls the first time in 91', the guy have never stepped away from a hit (if it wasn't the best thing to do which it is sometimes), or been unwilling to mix it up. If you think otherwise you just can't tell a apple from a orange on the ice, IMHO.

Ola is offline  
Old
09-15-2007, 03:51 PM
  #178
Trottier
Very Random
 
Trottier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Diego
Posts: 29,239
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
At the same time, I am not sold on that Gomez could have outshined Nyls in the PO's last season if he was given the same shot, Nyls had a sick PO's; and did perform when it mattered leading this team.

First, I respect your opinion in this discussion. You are correct, Nylander certainly did his share as a key "core" player for NYR last spring. Gomez has contributed to a competitve and often successful playoff team for more than half a decade.

Anyway, my big point is that I am pretty sick of the talk about certain players not beeing winners, and that certain is winners, and therefor often supposedly worse hockeyplayers then others who have won.

Again, when you are looking at players of relatively equal personal skills and/or numbers, in similar roles, then "team success" is a differentiator, IMO. Not suggesting that the 7th Dman on Anaheim is a winner moreso than Nylander. We're talking about two guys who are (were) in the same role on the same team. One advantage Gomez brings is familiarity with, and significant contribution to, consistent success. When one is successful repeatedly, some (myself included) call that person a "winner". Others (yourself?) consider it simply being "lucky". In which case, every Stanely Cup winning team and player through the years have simply been luckier than everyone else. Hardly. Sarcasm aside, that's a naive perspective. Those who win are SUPERIOR, evidenced by their record of ACHIEVEMENT. That is why they keep score and engrave names on Cups.

Like Gomez, the Devils won before he got there. And had a strong team for a long time, he got in and won, he got in and produced in the PO's. He is a really good hockeyplayer, its not that; but for me the fact that he won doesn't affect my opinions of him as a hockeyplayer. Everyone knows they just as well could have lost that game 7 of the EC finals in OT.

Or won Game Seven of the EC Finals in '94. On this point - winning not affecting your opinion - we simply respectfully disagree. For again, were it not for winning, Marcel Dionne is compared to Mark Messier. Bernie Federko is compared to Bryan Trottier. And, if you want to bring it more up to modern times, Alexei Yashin is compared to Peter Forsberg or Fedorov. Winning matters, at least to me. And players make the difference in winning, especially the top players. NYR has replaced a top skilled player on their roster with a skilled player who wins. That does not make Nylander a "loser" in my book. It makes Gomez what he is - a winner, and by virtue, a superior option as your #1 pivot, everything else being relatively equal.

If you asked me before every season I think I easly could have listed 20 teams each year that would not win the Cup; this day and time one player doesn't win a SC alone. It takes atleast a 3-4 really great players.

Always has, always will. And Gomez was among a core that has has known nothing but success in his time (and prior, to be sure, as you noted). Nylander has never been part of a core of a winning team, unless one considers a single round playoff victory "success". Many reasons likely attribute to that, but the player cannot be absolved in total, made simply "a victim of bad luck". For it's more than simply "good luck" that players like Drury and Gomez have been allergic to winning situations - they contribute mightily to them, repeatedly.

Just look at Sundin in Toronto...Is he a worse player then someone who have won the Cup?

No. But when you compare Sundin to, say, Forsberg or Sakic (contemporaries of relative world-class skill), he falls short in that category. That may matter none to you, it does to me. All three are certain future hall of famers (despite blather to the contrary by some misguided teenagers on HF). Two are multiple Stanley Cup winners, key players on those teams. That is accomplishment (achievement) that Sundin, to date, cannot claim. Make him a loser? Hardly.

Would you rather have a Kovalev just because he won once?

Ha! No.

Nah, that term is almost obsolete in this league now. I think you can have a ring on your finger and still be a looser, and that you can play 15 years without winning but still be a winner.

Which, effectively, means that scoreboard and Stanley Cups are meaningless in this post-modern, personal-fantasy-stat-driven Nuuuuu NHL, or at least relative, eh? To me, they remain the ultimate differentiator for judging talented players of equal roles/skillset. Again, we just disagree on this point, which is cool.


Last edited by Trottier: 09-16-2007 at 10:58 AM. Reason: spelling
Trottier is offline  
Old
09-15-2007, 08:37 PM
  #179
Jeds2StepOpus
Registered User
 
Jeds2StepOpus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 893
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
What you and many others are saying is that Nylander isn't a great player because he is a chicken; I just don't agree with that.
Nah, it's not that he's a chicken or coward. That kind of thinking is silly. It takes more guts and courage just step on the ice with NHL-level players; than what a lot of people realize.

Although it is fun to bust chops and ride Nylander for his ridiculous and neverending circling (and then turn the puck over or give it away, as he so often does) and for his dumb habit of passing up a high percentage shooting/scoring opportunity from 10 feet in front of the net; so he can pass it back to the point or sideboards.

No one with a brain cell in his/her head would expect Nylander to drop the gloves and fight; or all of the sudden start throwing the body around like a reckless bowling bowl. Anyone who has watched this guy play for a few years, knows well enough the guy is not built for that. He doesn't have the body to be a physical wrecking ball or exvchange punches. They guy would get killed.

On the other hand, anyone who has watched this guy play for several years with an objective eye and mind; knows he's never really been a player who steps up and displays gutsy performances......when his team needs it the most. That he often turns away from physical contact when the going gets rough.

Jeds2StepOpus is offline  
Old
09-16-2007, 04:23 AM
  #180
Ola
Registered User
 
Ola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Sweden
Country: Sweden
Posts: 19,019
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DinaFolke View Post
Ola you know as I do people in Sweden dont like americans period. And your nylander is a great excample. He never had any respect.
I do?

This is extremely off topic, but I do think 95% in Sweden disslikes GWB and USA's politics when it comes to the enviorment. But I don't think anyone disslikes americans or the USA. Think its the other way around...

There is a big diffrence there. Every democrat in the US don't disslike the USA.

Seriously.

And BTW, allot of people are probably rightfully thinking "why do they care?". Though Sweden is the country that is probably the most affected of the Iraq war outside the middle east, since we take on more iraqi refuges then any other country in the world, which in other words got some impact on a small country with 8m citizens.


Last edited by Ola: 09-16-2007 at 04:42 AM.
Ola is offline  
Old
09-16-2007, 04:37 AM
  #181
Ola
Registered User
 
Ola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Sweden
Country: Sweden
Posts: 19,019
vCash: 500
Trottier- Its defenitly cool. I agree with you in principle, though not to the same extent!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeds2StepOpus View Post
Nah, it's not that he's a chicken or coward. That kind of thinking is silly. It takes more guts and courage just step on the ice with NHL-level players; than what a lot of people realize.

Although it is fun to bust chops and ride Nylander for his ridiculous and neverending circling (and then turn the puck over or give it away, as he so often does) and for his dumb habit of passing up a high percentage shooting/scoring opportunity from 10 feet in front of the net; so he can pass it back to the point or sideboards.

No one with a brain cell in his/her head would expect Nylander to drop the gloves and fight; or all of the sudden start throwing the body around like a reckless bowling bowl. Anyone who has watched this guy play for a few years, knows well enough the guy is not built for that. He doesn't have the body to be a physical wrecking ball or exvchange punches. They guy would get killed.

On the other hand, anyone who has watched this guy play for several years with an objective eye and mind; knows he's never really been a player who steps up and displays gutsy performances......when his team needs it the most. That he often turns away from physical contact when the going gets rough.
I got a bit diffrent view of Nyls. He have often stepped up when it really counts, in WCH's, in the PO's for Washington and especially for Boston 2 years ago where he widly outplayed Joe Thornton...

Though the big problem I got with him, which especially was the case when he was younger, was that when he had a bad night he really really sucked. He can't change his game, he always plays with extremely small marignals, and when he have bad nights like everyone does thoose small marginals turns into disastrous plays.

Thats also the reason why he constantly is left of Swedish national teams. Its OK to play like he does, but in a best of 1 semifinal, and the scoring tied with 10 minutes to go you don't want someone trying to stickhandle past 3 guys in his own end ect.

Ola is offline  
Old
09-16-2007, 05:09 AM
  #182
Chimp
Registered User
 
Chimp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: In my food garden.
Country: Sweden
Posts: 10,712
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Trottier- Its defenitly cool. I agree with you in principle, though not to the same extent!



I got a bit diffrent view of Nyls. He have often stepped up when it really counts, in WCH's, in the PO's for Washington and especially for Boston 2 years ago where he widly outplayed Joe Thornton...

Though the big problem I got with him, which especially was the case when he was younger, was that when he had a bad night he really really sucked. He can't change his game, he always plays with extremely small marignals, and when he have bad nights like everyone does thoose small marginals turns into disastrous plays.

Thats also the reason why he constantly is left of Swedish national teams. Its OK to play like he does, but in a best of 1 semifinal, and the scoring tied with 10 minutes to go you don't want someone trying to stickhandle past 3 guys in his own end ect.
I think more of the reason has been when Nylander has been available, so have playmakers of better caliber. There is only room for x offensive centers, like Sundin, Forsberg and Sedin, when you need room for important defensive players like Påhlsson.

Chimp is offline  
Old
09-16-2007, 01:07 PM
  #183
NYR Viper
Moderator
 
NYR Viper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 30,004
vCash: 500
centers can play the wing if they really think he is worth while

NYR Viper is offline  
Old
09-17-2007, 12:19 PM
  #184
Jeds2StepOpus
Registered User
 
Jeds2StepOpus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 893
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
I do?

This is extremely off topic, but I do think 95% in Sweden disslikes GWB and USA's politics when it comes to the enviorment.....
Then you are all in agrrement with many, many Americans. Not just on environment, but other issues as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
But I don't think anyone disslikes americans or the USA. Think its the other way around... .
I don't dislike Sweden or it's people. I can't even figure out why anyone would.

As far as I know there is not an underlying dislike for Sweden. At least I've never met anyone who openly expressed a dislike of Sweden. So unless there's some kind of Secret Anti-Sweden group-think that no one talks about; I doubt you are correct on this.

Jeds2StepOpus is offline  
Old
09-17-2007, 12:24 PM
  #185
NYR Viper
Moderator
 
NYR Viper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 30,004
vCash: 500
i love sweden....arent all the girls blond-haired and blue-eyed bombshells?...lol....but seriously....anywhere henrik the king comes form is ok by me

NYR Viper is offline  
Old
09-17-2007, 05:49 PM
  #186
Chimp
Registered User
 
Chimp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: In my food garden.
Country: Sweden
Posts: 10,712
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeds2StepOpus View Post
Then you are all in agrrement with many, many Americans. Not just on environment, but other issues as well.




I don't dislike Sweden or it's people. I can't even figure out why anyone would.

As far as I know there is not an underlying dislike for Sweden. At least I've never met anyone who openly expressed a dislike of Sweden. So unless there's some kind of Secret Anti-Sweden group-think that no one talks about; I doubt you are correct on this.
We're getting a little OT here, but I think he meant the other way around, that Swedes think Americans are ok.

People are people and ignorant ones on top of that when uneducated. (Un)Luckily for us Swedes, we have an illogically high educational level because of political strategies, where now about 57% of the population (if I remember the numbers right) has participated in some form of higher education above high school. Just about every young person has studied something at a university because of the easy access (it's free to study at a university). With that, (I hope) things like prejudices and false mental images are decreasing, and therefor decreasing unjust anger towards the normal American person because of decisions above their heads.

The general Swede (where a student is like the average Joe) is upset at Bush and his administration, not the normal American. Big difference.

Chimp is offline  
Old
09-17-2007, 06:03 PM
  #187
Ola
Registered User
 
Ola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Sweden
Country: Sweden
Posts: 19,019
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeds2StepOpus View Post
Then you are all in agrrement with many, many Americans. Not just on environment, but other issues as well.

I don't dislike Sweden or it's people. I can't even figure out why anyone would.

As far as I know there is not an underlying dislike for Sweden. At least I've never met anyone who openly expressed a dislike of Sweden. So unless there's some kind of Secret Anti-Sweden group-think that no one talks about; I doubt you are correct on this.
I am sorry, I should have written that its the opposite, not the otherway around. I ment that Swedes likes americans, instead of what the poster wrote, that we hates them.

I really don't think anyone anywhere really cares about the swedes...

Anyway, this is OT, I shouldn't have responded to that flamer in the first place.

Ola is offline  
Old
09-19-2007, 12:20 AM
  #188
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
 
Edge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Amish Paradise
Country: United States
Posts: 13,891
vCash: 500
I don't know if Gomez is necessarily better than Nylander so much as it's a gamble on what he could still become playing on the Rangers (especially considering his age).

If point totals with Jagr are equal, Gomez will still be only about 30 or 31 years old when Nylander is theoretically on his last NHL legs.

I think Gomez has a shot to put up 90 or even 95 points with a healthy Jagr.

Edge is offline  
Old
09-21-2007, 10:28 AM
  #189
paintballruler*
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: New York
Country: United States
Posts: 69
vCash: 500
Boots on the ground

Listen the war has nothing to do with hockey, and it has nothing to do with sweden. If you want to help in Iraq ............................... Put some boots on the ground.

I see a trend here.......... Go into the corners, put boots on the ground, I let the little girls from sweden figure out what I am saying.

GFY

paintballruler* is offline  
Old
09-21-2007, 11:12 AM
  #190
SingnBluesOnBroadway
Retired
 
SingnBluesOnBroadway's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: NYC
Country: United States
Posts: 30,656
vCash: 500
Awards:
This thread has gone far enough OT.

__________________
SingnBluesOnBroadway is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:18 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2015 All Rights Reserved.