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NHL attendance seems to be way down!

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Old
10-11-2007, 05:27 PM
  #76
Trottier
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Scoring is down! Attendance is down!

Big "problems"!

Two weeks in...time to make changes to the sport once again!

When the kids are done playing with it, can we have our sport back, please?

Thanks.

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10-11-2007, 05:35 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Islespt2 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by HtotheIzzo
The Islanders sold out their first two games, though.
or so they claim
No "so they claim" about it ...... the Isles very likely did have a sell-out .. as in number of tickets sold/given away ........ if a season ticket holder elects not to go to the game even though that seat is empty that ticket was still sold.

There's a world of difference between "sold" tickets and "bodies in attendance".

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Old
10-11-2007, 05:37 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by hossua34 View Post
Wow, OK. No conference-homerism in that post... Then have fun with Atlanta, Florida, Washington and Boston MULTIPLE times every year.
You know, some people would prefer to play that teams that actually have a direct effect on their playoff seeding.

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10-11-2007, 05:38 PM
  #79
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Isles comped alot of tickets for their Monday "Childrens Home Opener". They bussed in those numbers (kids), and discounted their ticket prices working in concert with a charity organization. Hence why they had a sell-out that day.

So yes, they did have a sell out.

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Old
10-11-2007, 05:39 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by MacOfNiagara View Post
Thanks for the link. That seems to indicate Detroit as average not 'insane'. I really would like to see the raw data though as I cannot see how they came up with $30.07 as an average price for Sabres based on

"Average ticket price represents a weighted average of season ticket prices for general and club-level seats, determined by factoring the tickets in each price range as a percentage of the total number of seats in each stadium. Luxury suite sales are excluded from the survey."

Nevermind. I see they use season ticket prices when there is a discount available. The Sabres give a significant discount to season ticket prices close to 50%. If you look at individual game tickets it seems like Buffalo has higher prices than Detroit.

Does Detroit offer significant saving for season ticket holders?


http://sabres.nhl.com/tickets/individual.htm

No, they do not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CMacdonald View Post
Here's a good place to find pricing info.

http://www.teammarketing.com/fci.cfm..._nhl_06-07.cfm

No, the team marketing reports are junk. Read the fine print.

This Globe and Mail article is the only one we know of that lists avg ticket prices for each team, per the league's own numbers. You'll note that Detroit is ~$20 per ticket on avg than Buffalo. This is just gate receipt data.

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Old
10-11-2007, 05:40 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by CMacdonald View Post
Here's a good place to find pricing info.

http://www.teammarketing.com/fci.cfm..._nhl_06-07.cfm
No. That is a BAD place to find pricing info.

The bogus numbers on the Team Marketing Report site have been debunked numerous times on the BoH board.

Probably the best (and possibly the only) numbers you are going to find for avg ticket prices were the numbers leaked last year in the Globe & Mail:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/v5/co...pdf/NHLweb.pdf

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Old
10-11-2007, 06:02 PM
  #82
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I notice Columbus has had bad attendance so far, but don't forget the Indians are in the playoffs right now. There attendance will go up once baseball is over, I'm sure it's all about the Indians there right now.

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Old
10-11-2007, 06:57 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by nik11 View Post
Live sporting events are just becoming passe, it's as simple as that. Nowdays most people who can afford to go to games have:

- Salaried office jobs with no fixed hours, so they work longer.
- 1000 TV channels, HD, giant TVs, DVRs to cut out the commercials.
- The Internet: Myspace, Facebook, message boards, porn, video games.
- Both PC and console games increasingly designed for adults.
- Live in the suburbs, possibly far away from the arena.

Live pro sports has no way to maintain its competitiveness for the entertainment dollar with all the other entertainment options available. Don't be surprised to see attendance in *all* leagues to decline over the next decade. Why would Joe Schmoe spend an hour and a half of his time driving to an arena, after already working 10 hours, plus $200 for tickets and beer, when he can just watch the game in HD for free in his amazing home theatre and grind on his World of Warcraft character simultaneously, while flirting with underage girls online, all whilst downloading a movie to watch in case he gets sick of the game because his team is losing.
This applies a lot more to Movie Theaters than sporting arenas. The Dodgers for instance don't seem to be affected all that much.

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Old
10-11-2007, 08:21 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by kdb209 View Post
No. That is a BAD place to find pricing info.

The bogus numbers on the Team Marketing Report site have been debunked numerous times on the BoH board.

Probably the best (and possibly the only) numbers you are going to find for avg ticket prices were the numbers leaked last year in the Globe & Mail:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/v5/co...pdf/NHLweb.pdf
Thank you. (And thanks to Fugu too.)

Continue to spread the message about the worthlessness of Team Marketing Report, and we will eventually triumph over misinformation! Can I get a hallelujah!

And to further the cause, here is the sorted version of the accurate numbers from that Globe and Mail link:

PHP Code:
Average ticket prices by team
Team                   2006
-07  2005-06
Toronto Maple Leafs    80.33    78.98
Colorado Avalanche     71.04    65.55
New York Rangers       63.53    54.19
Dallas Stars           61.43    58.37
Edmonton Oilers        61.14    50.20
Montreal Canadiens     60.82    58.74
Boston Bruins          59.71    56.61
Vancouver Canucks      58.74    56.24
Detroit Red Wings      56.95    56.72
Columbus Blue Jackets  56.07    53.77
Philadelphia Flyers    54.59    51.94
Minnesota Wild         54.54    51.18
Anaheim Ducks          52.25    49.79
San Jose Sharks        50.95    49.05
Calgary Flames         50.70    46.97
Ottawa Senators        50.38    45.30
New Jersey Devils      49.91    48.97
Los Angeles Kings      46.75    44.17
New York Islanders     45.04    46.30
Carolina Hurricanes    44.91    38.81
Tampa Bay Lightning    44.50    42.38
Phoenix Coyotes        43.60    45.66
Chicago Blackhawks     40.79    39.74
Nashville Predators    40.33    34.74
Florida Panthers       39.75    44.59
Washington Capitals    39.57    36.16
St
Louis Blues        39.50    35.23
Pittsburgh Penguins    38.62    38.05
Atlanta Thrashers      37.27    32.70
Buffalo Sabres         36.67    36.37
League average         52.13    49.31 
Edit: An additional note on one of the reasons that Team Marketing Report's numbers are bogus. Sometime around the 2000-2001 season, they inexplicably decided to stop including anything termed "premium seating" in their average ticket prices. This immediately invalidates their numbers because of the way in which they collect their data--from marketing reps of the respective teams. Each team is allowed to label as "premium seating" any portion of their arena. So a team like Colorado, for example, can simply say that the entire lower bowl is "premium," and exclude it from the average, which is how you wind up with their laughable (made-up) "average" ticket price of under $40!

Edit: For a clear illustration of the effect of the above artificial calculation of average ticket price, observe the historical prices reported by TMR documented here:

http://andrewsstarspage.com/NHL-Busi...ket-prices.htm

Note the average ticket prices reported for Colorado during the 2000-01 season and the 2001-02 season. According to TMR, the average ticket price dropped that year from $63.11 in 2000-01 to $37.36 in 2001-02. In other words, TMR would have you believe that the Avs, coming off of a Stanley Cup winning season, with one of the best single seasons ever put together by an NHL team, not only decided to drop their ticket prices (laughable enough), but decided to drop them by an unheard of 41%! (clearly more laughable). As a season ticket-holder for the past 12 years, I can assure you that no such thing happened (not that I needed to tell you this). There was no drop, obviously. There was an increase (also obviously). The artificial numbers reported by TMR that year (and every year thereafter) are simply the result of the seat classification flaw mentioned above in this post.


Last edited by ColoradoHockeyFan: 02-13-2008 at 06:35 PM.
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Old
10-11-2007, 08:45 PM
  #85
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Bill Simmons from his mailbag today. http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...simmons/071011
I'm halfway expecting to hear a Game time promo for the NLCS "8 Eastern, 7 Central, 5 Pacific."

PS big reason i can't stand baseball right there.

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Old
10-11-2007, 09:38 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
No, the team marketing reports are junk. Read the fine print.
Unfortunately, even the fine print doesn't come close to detailing why the Team Marketing Report FCI is pure crap. To do that, the fine print would have to say something like:

"Average ticket prices are taken from team PR reps, who are not required to base their response on actual complete ticket data for their team. Some choose to designate a portion of their building--like, say, the entire lower bowl--as special premium seating, and exclude it from their data, resulting in a completely meaningless and artificially low 'average' price. We happily and blindly publish this 'data' despite the fact that it has no basis in reality and misleads the public."

And before you laugh, the above paragraph differs only slightly from what I was told directly by the woman who maintains that page. And it differs only in language, not in spirit.

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Old
10-11-2007, 10:19 PM
  #87
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The Yotes and Islanders reduced their prices by a combined 3.20.

....And the fans FLOCK to the stands!!!!

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Old
10-11-2007, 11:40 PM
  #88
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Hmmmmm. Edmonton is still selling out. Didn't anybody bother to tell us that hockey isn't cool anymore?

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Old
10-12-2007, 12:22 AM
  #89
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I don't see how nsacar can really affect hockey because there's only 1 race per week and usually the race is in another part of the country so you watch it on tv. There is no reason you can't flip back and forth especially considering a lot of race fans I know can't watch a whole race.

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Old
10-12-2007, 01:06 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucky #13 View Post
I notice Columbus has had bad attendance so far, but don't forget the Indians are in the playoffs right now. There attendance will go up once baseball is over, I'm sure it's all about the Indians there right now.
There wasn't a game Wednesday night, so I'm not looking to that for excuses.

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10-12-2007, 01:07 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by ILikeItVeryMuch View Post
I was just about to post about this, the Isles say the games were sold out, but on the attendance sheet its like 99% and change for those two games, is that just a snafu?
its not even that, people who went to the games said there were thousands of empty seats for each game and there were tickets available up until game time, I have seen the Islanders do this in past years as well, there would be rows upon rows of empty seats and plenty of tickets available until game time, and they would say its sold out

I understand you might get a few people not showing up here and there, but when there are 1/4 of sections that are empty, those are unsold tickets

The thing I dont get is why they wouldnt lie and say the Ranger game was sold out like they did the first 2 games

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Old
10-12-2007, 01:29 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by ColoradoHockeyFan View Post
Thank you. (And thanks to Fugu too.)

Continue to spread the message about the worthlessness of Team Marketing Report, and we will eventually triumph over misinformation! Can I get a hallelujah!

And to further the cause, here is the sorted version of the accurate numbers from that Globe and Mail link:

PHP Code:
Average ticket prices by team
Team                   2006
-07  2005-06
Toronto Maple Leafs    80.33    78.98
Colorado Avalanche     71.04    65.55
New York Rangers       63.53    54.19
Dallas Stars           61.43    58.37
Edmonton Oilers        61.14    50.20
Montreal Canadiens     60.82    58.74
Boston Bruins          59.71    56.61
Vancouver Canucks      58.74    56.24
Detroit Red Wings      56.95    56.72
Columbus Blue Jackets  56.07    53.77
Philadelphia Flyers    54.59    51.94
Minnesota Wild         54.54    51.18
Anaheim Ducks          52.25    49.79
San Jose Sharks        50.95    49.05
Calgary Flames         50.70    46.97
Ottawa Senators        50.38    45.30
New Jersey Devils      49.91    48.97
Los Angeles Kings      46.75    44.17
New York Islanders     45.04    46.30
Carolina Hurricanes    44.91    38.81
Tampa Bay Lightning    44.50    42.38
Phoenix Coyotes        43.60    45.66
Chicago Blackhawks     40.79    39.74
Nashville Predators    40.33    34.74
Florida Panthers       39.75    44.59
Washington Capitals    39.57    36.16
St
Louis Blues        39.50    35.23
Pittsburgh Penguins    38.62    38.05
Atlanta Thrashers      37.27    32.70
Buffalo Sabres         36.67    36.37
League average         52.13    49.31 

this chart is so flawed, Islanders had the 2nd highest box office ticket prices last year behind the Maple Leafs, the Islanders lowered their ticket prices this year, but there is still no way in hell their average ticket price is $45.60, think about it, the Islanders have only 3 and a half rows of seats in the Coliseum that are under $50(rows P,R, S and T in the 300;s are $19 and $30), how the hell can they say the average ticket price is 45.60 when maybe 2% of the entire seats in the Coliseum are under $50?

Even if you went by the Season ticket prices which the Islanders give a very generous discount, there is still no way the average ticket price is $45.60, Islanders probably lied to the person making this marketing report like they lie about everything else

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Old
10-12-2007, 02:07 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Islespt2 View Post
Even if you went by the Season ticket prices which the Islanders give a very generous discount, there is still no way the average ticket price is $45.60, Islanders probably lied to the person making this marketing report like they lie about everything else
According to this, the Islanders' season ticket prices are: $30, $39, $54, $65, $85.

http://islanders.nhl.com/tickets/21plan.htm

Looking at the seating chart sections that correspond to those price levels, and eyeballing a weighted average, it doesn't seem that unreasonable at all. (There are far more seats, for example, in the $30 and $39 sections combined than in the $65 and $85 sections combined.)

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Old
10-12-2007, 06:28 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Lou's Koolaid View Post
I always read the boxscores of the previous nights games. I've have noticed some smaller crowds in places that have always drawn very well. It would be very ironic if the Devils draw well and sellout on a regular basis in their new barn.

1.)Detriot only 17k plus for their opener.

2.)Colorado did not sellout home opener and got their smallest crowd in the Pepsi Center for their second home game at 15k plus.

3.)Under 12,000 in Columbus by far the smallest crowd in Jackets history.

Looks like there is a problem around the leauge. The Rangers and Islanders did not sellout the 16,234 seat NVMC.

of course this is concerning... the nhl cant hide behind the nfl excuse this time. Detroit has sold out since I can remember. Columbus has always been strong and loyal (but they have a reason to stay away)

As for colorado, I guess it takes just one non playoff year in 10 years for the attendance to fade.

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10-12-2007, 09:00 AM
  #95
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last night:

Atlanta @ Buffalo: Attendance: 18,690 (100.0% full)
Carolina @Ottawa: Attendance: 18,268 (98.7% full)
New jersey @Florida: Attendance: 10,847 (56.3% full)
NYI @ Toronto: Attendance: 19,319 (102.8% full)
Phoenix @Nashville: Attendance: 12,155 (71.0% full)


2 brutal games..3 markets with sellouts.

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Old
10-12-2007, 09:07 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Lou's Koolaid View Post
Looks like there is a problem around the leauge. The Rangers and Islanders did not sellout the 16,234 seat NVMC.
They had around 15,300 I believe. Islanders attendance is actually up from last year. We sold out our first two games, then within 1000 for the 3rd. Theres no excuse for available seats at an Isles/Rags game... But those 3 games combined were probably a higher value then our first 5-6 last year.

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10-12-2007, 09:26 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by ILikeItVeryMuch View Post
I didnt know about that, however the Wings not selling out the first home game is just bizarre.
As for my Devils, I'm so excited about the new arena and mass transit options, for the first time in a long time I am going to have to get on the ball as soon as tickets to go on sale tomorrow morning to get my opening night and first home game against Benadict, I mean Scott Gomez.
I don’t think it’s that bizarre that the Wings didn’t sell out their first home game, especially after failing to sell out some playoff games last season. Obviously the local economy and high ticket prices are a factor, but I wonder how a long run of success (like the Wings, Devils and to a somewhat lesser extent Avs) has on attendance figures.

When a team goes from being terrible or mediocre to being a playoff team, you usually see a large spike in attendance as the city starts buzzing over the team & fans that may not have come out to often start going to more and more games as they finally get the chance to follow a winner. Fans also start showing up in droves since they don’t know how long the window is going to be before the team goes back to being average.

When you look at teams like the Devils & Wings though, they’ve both been among the top teams in the league for the past 15 years or so. They don’t generate any new buzz in their market by winning since they’ve been doing it for so long and it’s come to be expected. If anything, the teams they had last season may seem like a bit of a disappointment despite winning their divisions, since teams in previous years were even better and went on the win multiple Cups. I just have to wonder how other markets (aside from the ones like Toronto or Montreal, etc. that pack the arena now matter how they play) would do with a long run of success – if they’d be able to pack the house for 10 or 15 years straight. It’s a lot easier to draw a lot of fans when the team makes a jump in the standing as the city gets behind them and fans get excited with finally seeing a winning product after a lot of years of mediocrity vs. maintaining that interest (and level of spending by fans) for such a long period of time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hossua34 View Post
HOCKEY's ticket prices are outrageous... It's incredible. In the sport with by far the least support in this country, the tickets are more expensive on average than any other major sport. Any idiot can tell you that something's wrong in that scenario.

...and people want the NHL to expand to Europe. RIGHT...
I agree that ticket prices are outrageous – unfortunately for us, NHL teams don’t care about attendance figures like people on these boards do. It’s more important for them to maximize revenue than capacity in the arena’s. If a team can make more money with higher ticket prices and only 80% capacity vs. lower ticket prices and 100% capacity, which one do you think they’re going to choose?

That’s why it’s tough to compare fan bases just on attendance – especially since each own handles pricing differently…some are more willing than other to gauge their fans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nik11 View Post
Live sporting events are just becoming passe, it's as simple as that. Nowdays most people who can afford to go to games have:

- Salaried office jobs with no fixed hours, so they work longer.
- 1000 TV channels, HD, giant TVs, DVRs to cut out the commercials.
- The Internet: Myspace, Facebook, message boards, porn, video games.
- Both PC and console games increasingly designed for adults.
- Live in the suburbs, possibly far away from the arena.

Live pro sports has no way to maintain its competitiveness for the entertainment dollar with all the other entertainment options available. Don't be surprised to see attendance in *all* leagues to decline over the next decade. Why would Joe Schmoe spend an hour and a half of his time driving to an arena, after already working 10 hours, plus $200 for tickets and beer, when he can just watch the game in HD for free in his amazing home theatre and grind on his World of Warcraft character simultaneously, while flirting with underage girls online, all whilst downloading a movie to watch in case he gets sick of the game because his team is losing.
I agree with this – it’s almost a better experience to sit at home or in a bar watching a game on a large hi-def screen. Also, a lot of corporations (mine included) are focused more and more on cost reduction, thus they’re spending less on stuff like corporate seats.

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Old
10-12-2007, 09:42 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by DevFan-RU- View Post
Isles comped alot of tickets for their Monday "Childrens Home Opener". They bussed in those numbers (kids), and discounted their ticket prices working in concert with a charity organization. Hence why they had a sell-out that day.

So yes, they did have a sell out.
That was paid for by sponsors. They did discount the tickets, but regardless an outside business partner paid to have those kids attend the game.

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Old
10-13-2007, 05:42 PM
  #99
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Really I don't know what the schedulemakers are thinking with the Avs. Loading up games on the weekends during football season where everyone will just stay home and watch games even if they aren't going, meanwhile we didn't have a game this week while the schedule was wide open thanks to the Nuggets being in preseason.

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10-14-2007, 10:34 AM
  #100
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Really I don't know what the schedulemakers are thinking with the Avs. Loading up games on the weekends during football season where everyone will just stay home and watch games even if they aren't going, meanwhile we didn't have a game this week while the schedule was wide open thanks to the Nuggets being in preseason.
Is it possible something else was happening in Denver's stadium (is it the Pepsi Center?)? Just because the nuggets weren't there, that doesn't mean nothing else is happening. The Caps are going 12 days without home dates because the Washington Horse Show is in town. Happens every October, and while we don't like it, we deal with it every year.

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