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Will Hossa play on 1st line most of the year?

View Poll Results: Will Hossa play on 1st line most of the year?
Yes 37 62.71%
No 22 37.29%
Voters: 59. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-13-2007, 05:43 PM
  #26
Tawnos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
Stating that there have been far more invisible stretches than visible ones in Hossa's career is not wanting him to fail. I would not be surprised if Hossa scored a goal tonight and then a few more in the next several games. Then, the points stop, but he still plays well for another handfull of games. Then, the downward cycle begins and he becomes persona non-gratta for two months. Then he gets benched. Then he plays and scores 2 goals in 3 games. And so on and so on and so on.

The fact of the matter is that until he breaks such a cycle, his doubters (myself included) will not be won over. That is far different than simply wanting him to fail.
In what world has Hossa spent a significant amount of time with true offensive oppurtunity at the NHL level in which he hasn't succeeded? Who in the 2 seasons he's been here did he play with that gave him a chance to succeed offensively? Nylander and Jagr? He suceeded with them. Rucchin? Betts? Moore? Cullen? Krog? Immonen? Those are the other 6 centers he's had the oppurtunity to play with during that stretch. Is it any wonder that a guy like Hossa, who needs other players to capitalize on the oppurtunites he creates with his forecheck, didn't have offensive success until being put with Nylander and Jagr? Besides which, I'd challenge you to legitimately justify Hossa having more invisible stretches last season than visible ones. He was a healthy scratch for maybe two games last season and I can't even be sure of that as 82 games minus 16 from his MCL sprain makes 66 and he played in 64. I personally would say that he was visible for a large portion of that. It might not have been offensively for 45 of those games, but again, look at the people he played with. I'm sorry, but I just don't buy the doubters arguements of inconsistency based on last season. The season before? Maybe.

I don't give a damn what he did in Montreal, he's not remotely the same player he was then.

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10-13-2007, 05:44 PM
  #27
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Part of his problem, besides inconsistancy, is his versatility. Because of his size, good defense, forechecking, penalty killing and skating skills, Renney has the option of playing him on any line. and this might cause him a problem in cementing a top spot. He's only offensively productive with Jagr, and while he should be able to stay on the top if he continues to produce, Renney will be shifting him around if he dosn't. Some players take advantage, others languish, hopefully he takes the first option

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Old
10-13-2007, 06:38 PM
  #28
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hossa should stay on the top line but not just cause he plays well with jagr. IMO the MOST important reason to keep him there is the impact it has on the other lines.

avery and shanny couldn't keep up with gomez on the rush and it killed the line, straka can keep up with him. so you've lost almost nothing on the top line cause hossa works well there and you upgraded the 2nd line big time...when avery comes back if he gets bumped down to the 3rd line that will upgrade that line.

imo it makes the team better and more balanced overall.

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Old
10-13-2007, 07:15 PM
  #29
AJ1982
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyBurd View Post
The fact that he started the season on the bench was a matter of circumstance. While I didn't think it was the best choice for the team, I understood it. Renney decided that the third line center shouldn't be Avery or Straka. End of story. Dubinsky earned a spot in the preseason and is a natural center. So the only choice to make is Hossa or Orr on the fourth line? And that ultimately comes down to who will do more with 4 minutes of ice time? Hossa will have a good forecheck once or twice or not at all. Orr will fight once or twice and pump some energy into the team in that way. So, Hossa simply ends up being the victim of circumstance on a team with depth. The way he's playing now, do you really think he ends up being a healthy scratch? I mean seriously?

The rose colored glasses thing... I guess some do. But it's a none issue for the purposes of this discussion. The only issue is whether he is playing well and is the best choice for whatever position. In this case he is the best option for the first line left wing slot. He has been proving that consistently since last season. It's just true. Hate him or not, the proof is in the pudding.

Are you denying that his forecheck has been tremendous often enough? Are you denying that he has been inseparable from the puck many times down low in the offensive zone? Are you denying that he is exceptional and getting better at using his body to guard the puck? Are you denying that he is becoming more aggressive in going to the net and creating scoring chances as a result? Are you denying that he finishes his checks? What exactly more do you want from a forechecker? What is it that he doesn't do? Other than the old "he's lazy", "no effort", "he sucks" comments that just don't hold up anymore.

And what exactly isn't he doing on defense? He is always back-checking. He hustles his ass off to cover for deep forwards or pinching D-men. He uses his stick and body positioning exceedingly well. And he is a very good penalty killer. IMHO he is the best defensive forward second to Betts. Which I guess isn't as flashy as offense but it's tremendous in the grand scheme of things.
Like you say.. the rose color glasses statement I made is irrelevant... just like the suggestions of my being a Hossa hater are irrelevant and simply ad hominem fallacies.

If Hossa is so tremendous as a 3rd line player why did he sit until a spot on the top line opened up for him? I guess Renney just hates him after showing him so much loving previously. Come on, if Hossa was outperforming Prucha (or another but we've seen prucha scratched for hossa or others before) in practice and preseason you don't think Renney would have put Hossa in there to start?

I have not said anything close to "he sucks" or "he is lazy" or "no effort". I think he is only an okay bottom two line guy (thus he sits until the top line spot becomes available) and I want to see him prove that he is a legit first or second line player over the long term. you think he has proven it all ready I guess, I simply disagree.

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10-13-2007, 07:36 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
In what world has Hossa spent a significant amount of time with true offensive oppurtunity at the NHL level in which he hasn't succeeded? Who in the 2 seasons he's been here did he play with that gave him a chance to succeed offensively? Nylander and Jagr? He suceeded with them. Rucchin? Betts? Moore? Cullen? Krog? Immonen? Those are the other 6 centers he's had the oppurtunity to play with during that stretch. Is it any wonder that a guy like Hossa, who needs other players to capitalize on the oppurtunites he creates with his forecheck, didn't have offensive success until being put with Nylander and Jagr? Besides which, I'd challenge you to legitimately justify Hossa having more invisible stretches last season than visible ones. He was a healthy scratch for maybe two games last season and I can't even be sure of that as 82 games minus 16 from his MCL sprain makes 66 and he played in 64. I personally would say that he was visible for a large portion of that. It might not have been offensively for 45 of those games, but again, look at the people he played with. I'm sorry, but I just don't buy the doubters arguements of inconsistency based on last season. The season before? Maybe.

I don't give a damn what he did in Montreal, he's not remotely the same player he was then.
What about the stints where his ice time was limited down to 8 minutes or less? Similar to a benching. And I'd challenge you to go back and prove that Hossa had more "visible" games than "invisible" games. Yeah, kind of hard to do so we can't really get into that either way. But in terms of production he wound up a with under 20 points and a minus player for us. Not exactly what you might want out of a successful third line player. Let alone for a player who put up 13 points in 15 games and went +6 in one stint at the end of the year. Suggests quite a mediocre first half of the season, he had something like 4 points in 40 games and was something like -10. Seems very much like the old Montreal days to me. I'm happy he did well at the end of last year, he earned a chance to continue that, then in preseason he falters when given the opportunity to take a spot with one of the top two lines. He rides the pine for the first two games. Now he gets another shot, and I have no problem with that since it is a much better option than having Isbister back here. But I maintain that Hossa still has to prove he can do it over the long haul, not just for a stretch here and there.

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Old
10-13-2007, 08:07 PM
  #31
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It blows my mind that someone like Hossa gets absolutely no respect on here while someone like prucha is talked about here likes hes a hall of famer. Hossa is such a valuable person on this team its unbelievable. He is a VERY good ALL AROUND player. When he has the opportunity to play top line minutes he ALWAYS produces.

How many other players on our team is good enough in both ends to play on the fourth line AND the first line? He is excellent defensively, never makes a mistake, never hurts his team, and when hes put into an offensive role he always produces. You people really need to start realizing how important he is to this team and how good of a player he really is.

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10-13-2007, 08:50 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by The Thomas J. View Post
Sadly, yes he will, weather he produces or not.
I agree. The only line Hossa even remotely has a chance of being effective is by being on the 1st line. Then again, EVERY player could be effective playing with Jagr.

That being said, I'd like to see Prucha get a chance on the 1st line.

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Old
10-13-2007, 10:13 PM
  #33
FLYLine24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawks35 View Post
It blows my mind that someone like Hossa gets absolutely no respect on here while someone like prucha is talked about here likes hes a hall of famer. Hossa is such a valuable person on this team its unbelievable. He is a VERY good ALL AROUND player. When he has the opportunity to play top line minutes he ALWAYS produces.

How many other players on our team is good enough in both ends to play on the fourth line AND the first line? He is excellent defensively, never makes a mistake, never hurts his team, and when hes put into an offensive role he always produces. You people really need to start realizing how important he is to this team and how good of a player he really is.
Most people do realize it. Its just a few that don't like him for whatever reason, and most of them have no real reason on hating him, they will just say something like hes bad, which is far from the truth.

BTW...3 game point streak

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Old
10-13-2007, 10:23 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by FLYLine88 View Post
Most people do realize it. Its just a few that don't like him for whatever reason, and most of them have no real reason on hating him, they will just say something like hes bad, which is far from the truth.

BTW...3 game point streak
I hate noone and I think my arguments are credible even if you disagree with them.

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Old
10-14-2007, 08:06 AM
  #35
True Blue
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Originally Posted by FLYLine88 View Post
BTW...3 game point streak
Been there; done that. Talk to me about him in mid-November. Until then, there is nothing new here so far.

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Old
10-14-2007, 08:19 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
I don't give a damn what he did in Montreal, he's not remotely the same player he was then.
I had a pretty lenghty response to you, and then my computer crapped out. I am not going to rewrite it. The only thing thing left to say is I could care less about Montreal the same way I could care less about his last name.

His first year here, he had a similar start to this one. And then he promptely went 25 games without a point. He played almost exclusively on the 2nd line until he was benched around New Year's. Unlike Hossa, Prucha still managed to score some goals when away from Jagr. Hossa has shown that SOLELY with Jagr can he put any points on the boars. So, since in order to be considered evey a 3rd line player one needs to be able to score around 15 goals, away from Jagr, Hossa has not been exactly top-9 material.

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10-14-2007, 08:57 AM
  #37
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If the shoe fits, wear it.

If Jagr feels comfortable with Marcel and his wing and both produce well together, don't change things up.

Straka has shown that he is versatile and can play on any line but the 4th.

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10-14-2007, 10:19 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
I had a pretty lenghty response to you, and then my computer crapped out. I am not going to rewrite it. The only thing thing left to say is I could care less about Montreal the same way I could care less about his last name.

His first year here, he had a similar start to this one. And then he promptely went 25 games without a point. He played almost exclusively on the 2nd line until he was benched around New Year's. Unlike Hossa, Prucha still managed to score some goals when away from Jagr. Hossa has shown that SOLELY with Jagr can he put any points on the boars. So, since in order to be considered evey a 3rd line player one needs to be able to score around 15 goals, away from Jagr, Hossa has not been exactly top-9 material.
Hossa showed the coaching staff he is 1st line material and has played a number of good games where his effort won't show up on the score sheet..

it's time to stop bashing hossa...he is far from the problem right now...

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10-14-2007, 02:23 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by TheRedressor View Post
If Jagr feels comfortable with Marcel and his wing and both produce well together, don't change things up.
He also felt comfortable with Isbister and Jason Ward. Neither prevented him from producing.

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10-14-2007, 02:26 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post
Hossa showed the coaching staff he is 1st line material and has played a number of good games where his effort won't show up on the score sheet..

it's time to stop bashing hossa...he is far from the problem right now...
I am not bashing him. I simply stated the "Hossa cycle" as it has been since he's arrived here. Right now, I am all for leaving him in. However, a few good games and I am not ready to proclaim him as top-line material (reading this board at times, and one would think that the Rangers have themselves a cross between a young Adam Graves and John Madden). All I am saying is that (at least for me), mid-NOvember is when it will become apparent if he has truly turned the corner (he certainly did not play in camp like he has) or if this is the same old Hossa cycle that has been going on for his entire career.

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10-14-2007, 04:04 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
I had a pretty lenghty response to you, and then my computer crapped out. I am not going to rewrite it. The only thing thing left to say is I could care less about Montreal the same way I could care less about his last name.

His first year here, he had a similar start to this one. And then he promptely went 25 games without a point. He played almost exclusively on the 2nd line until he was benched around New Year's. Unlike Hossa, Prucha still managed to score some goals when away from Jagr. Hossa has shown that SOLELY with Jagr can he put any points on the boars. So, since in order to be considered evey a 3rd line player one needs to be able to score around 15 goals, away from Jagr, Hossa has not been exactly top-9 material.
Hossa is such a good all around player and anyone who doesnt see why only looks at the scoresheet and not the lil things that makes a good player. Leave him on the first line all year and watch him put up big numbers, along with being excellent defensively, never making a mistake and never hurting his team. This guy is such a well rounded player and is a huge importance to our team.

And when exactly did prucha score without jagr???? Last year he went over two months without a goal when he played on the third line. THEN, shanny got hurt and prucha had to take his place on the second line and fill in shannys PP minutes. THEN, prucha started scoring. If he stayed on the third line all year he would have had a TERRIBLE season statistically.

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10-14-2007, 05:17 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
I am not bashing him. I simply stated the "Hossa cycle" as it has been since he's arrived here. Right now, I am all for leaving him in. However, a few good games and I am not ready to proclaim him as top-line material (reading this board at times, and one would think that the Rangers have themselves a cross between a young Adam Graves and John Madden). All I am saying is that (at least for me), mid-NOvember is when it will become apparent if he has truly turned the corner (he certainly did not play in camp like he has) or if this is the same old Hossa cycle that has been going on for his entire career.
Hossa has more good games then bad games...heck he has more good games then so/so games..

The thing is Hossas game alot of times isn't going to be show up on the scoresheet...the nights he doesnt' score he is still one of the best penalty killers and still has effort everyshift....


I don't believe there is a Hossa cycle...his effort and defensive play is consistant at all times...

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Old
10-14-2007, 06:18 PM
  #43
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Hossa has looked pretty solid beside Jagr... as long as he keeps giving the effort he has shown lately there is no reason he won't stick on the top unit.

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Old
10-14-2007, 06:32 PM
  #44
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Hossa ain't the problema...

and he ain't the solution on the left wing. This team's second line ain't going, and the third line is spotty at best (cally and Prucha should not be on the same line - Hossa and Cally would be a great third line). Further, Straka suck when he's not playing with Jagr, and with him he's a 25-30 goals scorer. This seems to be the Rangers' greatest problem - the top three lines. There's no individual responsible - it's frustrating seeing certain guys there when the team loses, for sure, but it's not the problem. There's some jiggering that needs to be done, for sure - the Rangers beat a team that wasn't so good last year and has been on the road (yeah, they played well in a couple games, yay), then they face a good team on home ice and you see where they are - same place where they played that same team on the road - need work. The tools are there, Renney needs to figure it out.

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Old
10-14-2007, 06:37 PM
  #45
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hossa has convinced me he deserves to be on that first line....he is one of the few players that can make space for jagr because of his size and that will drive hard to net for rebounds.......the rangers need someone like that on that line

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