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All-Time Draft #8, Part V

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Old
11-05-2007, 08:46 PM
  #51
pitseleh
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He was our plan B if we missed Norstrom, so we're very happy to get him as the 7th guy.
Yeah, I remember you reunited him with his partner in crime in the MLD a couple drafts ago.

I wish I knew more about him, I just couldn't justify picking him based upon how little I understood his game.

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11-05-2007, 08:52 PM
  #52
VanIslander
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End of draft

good job! it went pretty well

time to UPDATE our rosters on the roster thread
add/drops can be done here if you want to change a player
do some analyses for a few days, digest it all before getting into voting

-------------------

reminder: there will be a minor league draft for all undrafted players

so please don't post comments about undrafted players who should have been picked

pass those names via PM to someone who wants to g.m. a minor league team and they can get an early round gem

(minor league draft sign-up thread will be created before long but the minor league draft won't itself begin until the fourth round of the atd8 playoffs or december at the very least)

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11-05-2007, 09:03 PM
  #53
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Yeah, I remember you reunited him with his partner in crime in the MLD a couple drafts ago.

I wish I knew more about him, I just couldn't justify picking him based upon how little I understood his game.
Yeah, that's why I'm happier with him as a 7th guy. He could be good enough for the 2nd pairing, but it's so hard to say. But as an injury fill in and a guy to add a more punishing presence to our blueline when we need it, he's a great pick up IMO.

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End of draft
Still one skipped pick no?

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11-05-2007, 09:05 PM
  #54
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The Boston Bruins select Ron Duguay

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11-05-2007, 09:50 PM
  #55
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The Boston Bruins select Ron Duguay
WHAT?!?!? HE WASN'T PICKED?!?!?!?!
We especially had a scout assigned to nightclubs. He obviously forgot about the "working" part of his job, except for bringing some cheerleaders prospects. That scout will be fired for sure -- I told him to scout Manhattan, it wasn't for cheerleaders... I would have told him to look in Montreal for the ladies, with Dallas being a distant second!

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11-05-2007, 09:53 PM
  #56
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The Boston Bruins select Ron Duguay
Hot.


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11-05-2007, 09:57 PM
  #57
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Hot.

Hey! He even stole my haircut, seriously!

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11-05-2007, 10:02 PM
  #58
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Hot.


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11-05-2007, 10:31 PM
  #59
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The St Louis Eagles are letting Bryan Murray go, and signing the coach I wanted but couldn't find any info on until after the selection Dr. Jan Starsi who will run our transition offense.

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11-06-2007, 05:13 AM
  #60
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I've done some more research into the postseason all-star teams of the 30's after the controversy around Red Horner's lack of selections and what I've found is interesting, to say the least. Sadly, we don't have the actual all-star voting for the 30's, so I've been forced to juxtapose all-star selections with statistics in my analysis, but I think the results are interesting, all the same.

I'll add before I begin with the number-crunching that numbers are obviously not everything. I have no quantifiable yardstick for determining a player's defensive contributions (though I will try to take what is known anecdotally about a player's defensive play into account when discussing my findings), so if you think that torpedoes the whole project, so be it. Also, many all-star selections over the years are head-scratchers, and I'm not going to delve deep into every single statistical discrepancy. Player X scoring five more points than player Y but losing in the all-star voting to player Y isn't an important event to me, but there are some apparent anomalies in 30's all-star voting that I think can be brought to light by looking at the relevant statistics. Ok, here goes.

- Dit Clapper: 30-31 - 2nd team all-star right wing
22-8-30

Charlie Conacher killed Clapper in goals in 30-31 and beat him in assists, going 31-12-43. What on earth was Clapper doing so well that it made up for Conacher scoring almost 50% more points?

- Bill Cook: 33-34 - 2nd team all-star right wing
13-13-26

This one is pretty glaring. 33-34 was a real down year for Cook, who only put up as many points as the top-scoring right wing on his own team (Cecil Dillon) had assists. Eh? Larry Aurie also had a great season in 33-34, going 16-19-35 and putting up 3-7-10 in 9 playoff games as a kicker. Both Dillon and Aurie were known as strong checkers, so it's hard to see what Bill Cook had over them given the rather wide discrepancy in points (not to mention linemates).

- Aurel Joliat: 34-35 - 2nd team all-star left wing
17-12-29

Again, what the hell? 34-35 marks the beginning of Joliat's decline as a scorer. Although we know that Aurel was valuable to his team and played a tough all-around game, he got statistically smoked by a number of other left wings in 34-35, all of whom played pretty darned complete games, themselves. Syd Howe led all left wings in scoring (and was 2nd in the league) with 22-25-47, in spite of playing the first three-quarters of the season on a sinking ship in St. Louis. Howe also put up a gaudy 8-12-20 in 14 games after coming to Detroit in a late-season trade. I don't care if Aurel Joliat caught pucks with his teeth, Howe scored 62% more points than Joliat.

Herbie Lewis also had a fantastic season in 34-35, going 16-27-43 and, like Howe, presumably providing the same high level of defensive play that he displayed throughout his career.

Finally, Paul Thompson (another strong defensive left winger) put up 16-23-39. I haven't even checked outside of the top-10 lists to see if any other left wingers beat Joliat in 34-35, though I don't think it much matters.

Joliat's 5th place finish in Hart voting in 34-35 raises some interesting questions. It's kind of a mystery to me what went on with him that season.

- XXX: 36-37 2nd team all-star center
8-23-31

Simply put, Syl Apps smoked XXX in every way imaginable in 36-37. It's not even close.

It looks very much to me like the powers that be in the NHL started off the all-star selections in a manner that a former soldier like myself would probably describe as "deeply grabasstic". There are some throbbingly obvious "career value" or "sorry we shafted you last year" makeup picks given out with the 2nd team slots.

Chapman, for example, was very good in 35-36 (4th in points), but got probably rightly stiffed for an all-star nod in favor of Hooley Smith and Bill Toms. Apps was in his first year in the league in 36-37 and clearly didn't get the respect of what appear to have been an outrageously stodgy group of NHL voters in the 1930s. Chapman got the 2nd team nod as a makeup for the previous season in spite of being clearly inferior to Apps.

Clapper was huge in 29-30, but there was no all-star team that year, and was almost certainly given a makeup award over Charlie Conacher in 30-31. Bill Cook's award in 33-34 looks pretty clearly like a "career value" award given out of respect for the fact that Cook played half of his career before the advent of all-star teams and thus was deserving of a bit more love, in spite of the fact that he wasn't even the best right wing on his team that season.

Joliat is a more interesting case because of the Hart voting. It's really hard to say what went on with him that season, but at any rate, Joliat winning the all-star pick over Syd Howe (or any of the three players mentioned) is actually the most glaring statistical anomaly of them all. The somewhat dodgy looking distribution of all-star selections among 30's defensemen and the obviously broken distribution among the forwards are mutually reinforcing pieces of information.

I am left with a picture of a league that had little clue what it was doing with its all-star picks in the first decade of the institution's existence. There is a very clear bias against younger players (which has existed in all eras, but this one is more extreme) and against picking two players at the same position on the same team (the defensemen, Howe and Lewis in Detroit, Dillon and Cook in New York - again, vote-splitting has always existed, but this seems an extreme case). Older players were given awards they didn't deserve at the time and several of the picks look almost as if they were made at the beginning of the season rather than the end. The fact that one of the leading scorers but least admired men of the decade (Nels Stewart) was completely shafted from the all-star teams also calls into question to what extent the award was a popularity contest (although one could ask the same question today, I suppose).

At any rate, the all-star team selections seem to clean up considerably at the end of the decade (right around the same time Shore and Clapper were named to the team together) and there's nothing conclusive in my little number-crunching exercize, but I think it's interesting data, all the same. I apologize for using the names of potential minor-league draftees, but I put a lot of work into this research and I think it's an important enough point to make that it shouldn't be partially obscured by the dreaded XXX.


Last edited by Sturminator: 11-07-2007 at 12:44 AM.
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Old
11-06-2007, 05:42 AM
  #61
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One theory with Joliat beating Howe could be that Howe played center for most of the season. But St. Louis had no other top line LW so I doubt it, they had a decent C and a platoon of scoring RWs and Bill Cowley in the pipeline at center, but, still very raw. Detroit had Cooney Weiland at center, but also had Herbie Lewis and another underafted player who lead the team in goals on the left wing. So, I'd conclude that while he played most of the season at LW in St. Louis, he played center in Detroit and voters counted that against him. I think actually, that acquiring Syd Howe is what gave Jack Adams the oppertunity to switch Ebbie Goodfellow to defense.

Weird that versitility would work against him like that.

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11-06-2007, 07:47 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Sadly, we don't have the actual all-star voting for the 30's
See the awards & voting thread (History forum). I dug up a lot of the historical all-star team voting numbers, from 1931 until around 1950, over the summer (I believe it starts on the bottom of page 5). My work was mostly summarizing the data rather than analyzing it, but I agree that there are some weird results. For example, one year, Hap Day deserved a spot that went to another player (I think Lionel Conacher) because he had more votes both at his position and in total! There was another weird vote (I think with Aurel Joliat?), who won the Hart but easily got beaten for the first-team spot. Tie-breaking was handled differently as well (two players tied for the first-team spot one year when they would have been split between the first and second team by today's rules). I'm not saying that the early all-star teams are worthless, but I agree that we should look at them with some scepticism. (Though I believe we should use some scepticism for any award in any era).

One thing that might have worked against Horner is that, in the 1930s, they had voting on a left D/right D basis. Nowadays, all defensemen eligible for any of the first or second team spots. I don't remember offhand if Horner is a left or right D, but if he was the same position as Shore, he had no chance at making the first team for virtually his entire career.

Two more quick points. First, Nels Stewart's two best seasons (he won the Hart twice) came before all-star teams were around. He clearly would have been an all-star twice. However, the rest of his career, he was consistently hanging around 5-10 in goals and points. That's still quite good obviously, but none of them were necessarily all-star calibre seasons. So I don't think he necessarily lost out on undeserved spots.

Second, based on my work, I'd say that the voting was too complex and widespread for there to be any intentional biases against young players or any "lifetime achievement awards". But sometimes there are biases where a lot of sports writers think and vote the same way. A bias is possible, but it's not like the NHL decided to give Bill Cook a career achievement award.


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Old
11-06-2007, 04:06 PM
  #63
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One thing that might have worked against Horner is that, in the 1930s, they had voting on a left D/right D basis. Nowadays, all defensemen eligible for any of the first or second team spots. I don't remember offhand if Horner is a left or right D, but if he was the same position as Shore, he had no chance at making the first team for virtually his entire career.
Right side, which puts him in direct competition with Shore and Seibert.

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11-06-2007, 04:16 PM
  #64
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We have Kirk McLean on the trade block.

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11-06-2007, 04:17 PM
  #65
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We have Kirk McLean on the trade block.
Is he the only guy on the block?


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11-06-2007, 04:22 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
One thing that might have worked against Horner is that, in the 1930s, they had voting on a left D/right D basis. Nowadays, all defensemen eligible for any of the first or second team spots. I don't remember offhand if Horner is a left or right D, but if he was the same position as Shore, he had no chance at making the first team for virtually his entire career.
That's good stuff, HO. Based on handedness, unless they were playing in bizarro world, Horner was a right D and Clancy (his regular partner) was a left D. Shore was a right D, as well, correct? Do you know what side Earl Seibert played? I hadn't realized that the early all-star voting for defensemen was restricted by side, and as Shore and Seibert are both pretty much 1000 lb. gorillas, it seems fairly relevant which side they played. Many of the top defensemen of the era were right shots (which is odd): Shore, Seibert, Clapper, Coulter, Horner, Mantha and Wentworth (there may be others). All can't have been right Ds as four were once all-stars at the same time (Shore, Clapper, Seibert and Coulter), but unless things were really done differently in the 30's, it does look like a crowded field on the right side. It was, in all honesty, a crowded field anyway.

Quote:
Second, based on my work, I'd say that the voting was too complex and widespread for there to be any intentional biases against young players or any "lifetime achievement awards". But sometimes there are biases where a lot of sports writers think and vote the same way. A bias is possible, but it's not like the NHL decided to give Bill Cook a career achievement award.
Well...sometimes I think there are intentional biases; Ted Kennedy's Hart Trophy, for example. In the case of all-star voting in the 30's, it may just be the case that the writers went into the season with such solid preconceived notions of who was best that they largely ignored the actual hockey being played, but clearly there was something rather off about the voting on a number of occasions.

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11-06-2007, 04:35 PM
  #67
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All can't have been right Ds as four were once all-stars at the same time (Shore, Clapper, Seibert and Coulter), but unless things were really done differently in the 30's, it does look like a crowded field on the right side. It was, in all honesty, a crowded field anyway.
I don't think it was that way for the whole decade, just like the 1st 5 or so times. I can't recall the exact switch over.

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11-06-2007, 06:44 PM
  #68
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All can't have been right Ds as four were once all-stars at the same time (Shore, Clapper, Seibert and Coulter), but unless things were really done differently in the 30's, it does look like a crowded field on the right side. It was, in all honesty, a crowded field anyway.
A lot of writers are confused about which side a player is on, too. There are many cases of a player receiving votes on both sides.

I have Shore, Seibert and Coulter listed as right-handed and Siebert as left-handed, so the only discrepancy for the year you're referring to (1938) is if Coulter was a right-handed D playing on the left side.

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I don't think it was that way for the whole decade, just like the 1st 5 or so times. I can't recall the exact switch over.
I don't have too many details for the first two years (1931 and 1932), but votes were split between left and right defenseman as early as 1933. This format continues until 1938. I have no details about 1939, but the left/right split is gone in 1940 (and all years thereafter).

========

Here's one thing that still bugs me. Pitseleh would probably be interested in hearing that Hap Day was screwed out of an all-star spot in 1933. I'm not saying that he probably deserved a spot and didn't get it--I mean the writers actually gave him enough votes, and, for some reason, he still didn't get it!

Right defense: Eddie Shore 29, (Ivan, I'm assuming) Johnson 2, King Clancy 1 (total votes = 32)

Left defense: Ivan Johnson 17, Hap Day 4, Bill Brydge 3, King Clancy 3, Lionel Conacher 3, Eddie Shore 2 (total votes = 32)

Eddie Shore and Ivan Johnson have huge leads and both get a spot on the 1st team. Johnson is second on the right side but he obviously can't get on twice, so the next best righty, King Clancy, is selected. (I'm a big fan of Clancy but it's pretty unimpressive to earn a spot on the all-star team by getting just one vote).

Lionel Conacher is chosen as the 2nd-team all-star for left D. This doesn't make sense! Hap Day clearly has more votes (4 vs 3), and Conacher didn't have any votes as a righty to give him an advantage. Even Bill Brydge (I'll admit, I've never even heard of him) has as many votes as Day. It looks like Day got blatantly cheated out of a spot!

Maybe I wrote these down wrong, or maybe the Globe had a typo. But, as far as I can tell, Hap Day should have been an all-star in 1933.

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11-06-2007, 06:46 PM
  #69
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Right defense: Eddie Shore 29, (Ivan, I'm assuming) Johnson 2, King Clancy 1 (total votes = 32)

Left defense: Ivan Johnson 17, Hap Day 4, Bill Brydge 3, King Clancy 3, Lionel Conacher 3, Eddie Shore 2 (total votes = 32)

Eddie Shore and Ivan Johnson have huge leads and both get a spot on the 1st team. Johnson is second on the right side but he obviously can't get on twice, so the next best righty, King Clancy, is selected. (I'm a big fan of Clancy but it's pretty unimpressive to earn a spot on the all-star team by getting just one vote).

Lionel Conacher is chosen as the 2nd-team all-star for left D. This doesn't make sense! Hap Day clearly has more votes (4 vs 3), and Conacher didn't have any votes as a righty to give him an advantage. Even Bill Brydge (I'll admit, I've never even heard of him) has as many votes as Day. It looks like Day got blatantly cheated out of a spot!

Maybe I wrote these down wrong, or maybe the Globe had a typo. But, as far as I can tell, Hap Day should have been an all-star in 1933.
I guess somebody was suffering from "left-right dyslexia" amongst columnists.

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11-06-2007, 07:45 PM
  #70
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Is he the only guy on the block?

Savard......

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11-06-2007, 07:53 PM
  #71
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Here's one thing that still bugs me. Pitseleh would probably be interested in hearing that Hap Day was screwed out of an all-star spot in 1933. I'm not saying that he probably deserved a spot and didn't get it--I mean the writers actually gave him enough votes, and, for some reason, he still didn't get it!

Right defense: Eddie Shore 29, (Ivan, I'm assuming) Johnson 2, King Clancy 1 (total votes = 32)

Left defense: Ivan Johnson 17, Hap Day 4, Bill Brydge 3, King Clancy 3, Lionel Conacher 3, Eddie Shore 2 (total votes = 32)

Eddie Shore and Ivan Johnson have huge leads and both get a spot on the 1st team. Johnson is second on the right side but he obviously can't get on twice, so the next best righty, King Clancy, is selected. (I'm a big fan of Clancy but it's pretty unimpressive to earn a spot on the all-star team by getting just one vote).

Lionel Conacher is chosen as the 2nd-team all-star for left D. This doesn't make sense! Hap Day clearly has more votes (4 vs 3), and Conacher didn't have any votes as a righty to give him an advantage. Even Bill Brydge (I'll admit, I've never even heard of him) has as many votes as Day. It looks like Day got blatantly cheated out of a spot!

Maybe I wrote these down wrong, or maybe the Globe had a typo. But, as far as I can tell, Hap Day should have been an all-star in 1933.
It may just be me, but I think that's hilarious.

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11-08-2007, 09:07 PM
  #72
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When are the actual series going to start?

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11-09-2007, 11:29 PM
  #73
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Regina's third line centre, Joe Thornton, had a partial breakaway in the NHL tonight in a 2-2 third period play against divisional rival Ducks that saw the centre break in a half step ahead of the defenseman, with a clear chance to shoot on goal, skater vs. goalie.... and what does Thornton do? .... I couldn't believe it ... he decided to swerve left and go behind the net, coming out the other side looking for the pass... that is ... so.... J.T. .. always looking for the pass, even on a breakaway it should be a highlight moment... and you know, if the pass he eventually made to Pavelski hadn't been checked away and if a goal had resulted instead then it WOULD be a highlight play, typifying his genius as a passer..... Thornton is a true passer.. to a fault

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11-12-2007, 08:59 AM
  #74
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When are the actual series going to start?
Yeah, I was just wondering. Do we have a date set for regular season voting and all that? Should be pretty soon, right? I think everyone's team has been reviewed a couple of times by now

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11-12-2007, 09:21 AM
  #75
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Now that we're through the long weekend, start sending me your rankings.

Rank the teams in their divisions from 1 to 7, leaving your team out in your own divison. Co-gm's can both send in rankings, as can our lurkers, if they wish.

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