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All-Time Draft #8, Part V

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Old
11-15-2007, 12:21 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Evil Speaker View Post
You need to look at Bernie's playoff performance too..

Top playoff point scorers of the 1950's:

Geoffrion placed 1st,2nd,2nd,2nd,3rd,4th
Richard - 1st,2nd,2nd,3rd,3rd,5th
Beliveau - 1st,2nd,3rd,4th,5th
Howe - 1st,1st,4th,5th
Moore - 1st,1st,4th
Mackell - 1st,3rd
Lindsay - 1st,5th

Hey it looks like he even outmatched The Rocket. Wasn't he the best clutch player ever?
Geoffrion absolutely does deserve mention among the greatest playoff performers in history, and I get the impression that he'd have played more regular season games (and obviously put up better numbers) if not for the fact that the Habs often rested him to get him healthy for the postseason. I think the same thing likely happened with Dickie Moore. It's not as if those Habs teams were fighting for a playoff spot in the regular season. I wasn't alive or was very young at the time all of this was going on so it's mainly conjecture on my part, but that's the impression I've always gotten. Maybe pappy has a clearer picture?

Relative team strength has to be taken into account when looking at raw playoff numbers, as well. In the 50's, the top Habs forwards and the Production Line guys are the only players who really had a decent shot at being the top playoff scorers in any given year (makes Fleming Mackell's achievements all the more impressive on an overmatched Bruins team). Geoffrion's playoff scoring record (and his consistency in the postseason in spite of his irregular regular season performances - again, I think it's a question of health) certainly is impressive, but I don't find it very surprising given the circumstances.

At any rate, my first post wasn't meant as a shot at Bernie Geoffrion. I consider him one of the known quantities of the draft. With the exception of Milt Schmidt this time around, until at least the 3rd round there isn't anything I'd consider drama nor any player whose record isn't well-known, front and back, side to side. I was just pointing out that getting a clear picture of any one player (nevermind a whole team) involves a lot more than simply looking at his best regular season performance. Considering that the question posed was basically "why isn't Geoffrion a 1st rounder?" I thought it was appropriate to highlite the reasons why he isn't rather than the other good things about him that hadn't been mentioned yet.

He's one wing on arguably the best line in the draft, in my opinion. I should also mention that I find the makeup of the Mahovlich - Abel - Geoffrion line quite cool. Ignoring Maurice Richard, you've got the three greatest Golden Age players at their respective positions (and on their respective teams) from the three great Golden Age teams. It's kind of frightening.

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11-15-2007, 12:42 AM
  #102
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Boom Boom would miss anywhere from 10 to 30 games a year, its true. But if you look at per game stats, his numbers throughout the 50s stack up well vs almost anybody. He can't match Howe, thats true. Who exactly can?

He also, even on a per game basis, doesn't have the "big" years like Beliveau does except '60, but thats only a couple years like 58-59 really. In general, there isn't the separation between the stats of the two to suggest that Beliveau should get credit for making him THAT much better. 1960 is an example of him at his best, basically.
One thing about Beliveau is his leadership. He is in my opinion the greatest leader in NHL history, a fact which cannot be ignored when building a "real team" (an ironic term for what we're doing, I know) and not just a collection of talent. Beliveau's GM can probably give you more reasons why he deserves to remain an ATD top-10 sacred cow.

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I pretty much agree with that and feel it makes my point. I'm not sure Clapper quite belongs in the discussion though.
You're right; he does not. Clapper as a right winger is not even in the top-300 all-time.

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The point is, all the others are first rounders, why not Geoffrion? I wouldn't take him over any of the others, but I would definitely take him next after those 6.

Maybe my drafting philosophy is biased, but it seems like real NHL teams would go for top line forwards and #1 D-Men in the first round. Goalies probably not because so many of them are hard to tell apart due to not having much statistical data, too much team bias, and because at that level its hard to distinguish one from another. I think Martin Brodeur was the worst pick of whatever round he went, incidentally.
You're joining the discussion a bit late, but I find it very refreshing to see someone really challenge a top-50 order that few GMs seem to question anymore. At any rate, Bernie Geoffrion was the 6th right winger drafted and seems to be consistently taken at that spot, though to be honest I see little to seperate the second tier of right wings (Geoffrion, Cook, Conacher, Kurri, Bathgate and Hull) from one another so the same could be asked of any of the above players - why isn't he a first round pick?

At least outside of the top 5-6 goalies, I agree with you. If I can't get one of Plante, Hasek, Roy, Sawchuk, Hall or Dryden I'm probably not going to look at another goalie until the 3rd or more likely the 4th round, but many GMs will disagree with this assessment.

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Take Yzerman as an example in the first round. You are not magically going to get his best offense year(s) AND his defense all at the same time. Offensively he might have ended up near Dionne if he hadn't changed his game. As a two-way player he was a winner but not really a first round pick. Geoffrion was.
We've already kicked the tires on exactly this discussion of Yzerman's legacy - ie. he wasn't a great offensive and defensive player simultaneously. I really like Steve Yzerman as a player, but I think it's possible that he may be one of the modern players who is drafted a bit high because GMs can remember seeing with their own eyes how great he was. Someone may tackle that argument someday, but it won't be me.

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11-15-2007, 03:14 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Evil Speaker
Hey it looks like he even outmatched The Rocket. Wasn't he the best clutch player ever?
I've got Roy, Kennedy and Gretzky as the top three clutch players ever, in no particular order. The Rocket, Geoffrion, Lemieux, Moore, Broda and a few others constitute the second tier, I think.

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11-15-2007, 03:32 AM
  #104
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Personally, there's more players below Geoffrion that I'd take above him (Ie Newsy Lalonde) then there are players above him that I'd take below him (Ie Tim Horton)

Oh and, do we rate our own division or not?

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11-15-2007, 04:41 AM
  #105
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do we rate our own division or not?
we always have - just not your own team

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11-15-2007, 04:43 AM
  #106
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To anyone who's interested, I found a great New York Times review of a 2005 book called "The Boys of Winter" which talks about the famous 1980 Olympics from both sides - including extensive interviews of both Canadian and Russian players. I haven't read the book yet (though I desperately want to), but the review article (which you can read here) is quite interesting and funny, in itself.

Moreso than competing with other GMs for the Milt Dunnell Cup, it is finding information like this that makes me enjoy the process of hockey research so much. I got a good chuckle out of snippets from the article that talk about how the Russians were housed in what would eventually become a prison and how they left behind over a hundred empty bottles of vodka in the drop ceiling after they left.

There's some pretty engaging commentary on Tretiak in there, as well, and the bit at the end about Vasiliev grabbing Tikhonov by the neck and saying, "I will kill you right now," is also pretty amusing.

When all is said and done, I do this stuff because I love hockey, not because I want to imagine my imaginary team drinking from an imaginary cup at season's end. I apologize to any of you who I may have aggravated by taking myself too seriously. We are, at times, as much a debate club as a group of hockey fans, which I guess a good way to dig truth up where it lies and to honor the players, but often enough, I'd rather just be a fan.

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11-15-2007, 05:27 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
To anyone who's interested, I found a great New York Times review of a 2005 book called "The Boys of Winter" which talks about the famous 1980 Olympics from both sides - including extensive interviews of both Canadian and Russian players.
Thanks. I just ordered it. Will take 4-6 weeks to get here in Korea. Just in time for Christmas.

I also ordered Deacock's Great Teams in Hockey History (2005), McFarlane's History of Hockey (1997) and Total NHL: the Ultimate Source (2003). Any others to suggest?

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11-15-2007, 06:15 AM
  #108
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Thanks. I just ordered it. Will take 4-6 weeks to get here in Korea. Just in time for Christmas.

I also ordered Deacock's Great Teams in Hockey History (2005), McFarlane's History of Hockey (1997) and Total NHL: the Ultimate Source (2003). Any others to suggest?
As as aside, VanI, are you a soldier?

Anyway, I highly recommend Dryden's biography/memoir (entitled The Game, if I recall correctly - it's been about twenty years since I read it), though I wasn't nearly as impressed with Phil Esposito's book (no, this doesn't color my opinion of Phil the hockey player). A People's History of Hockey is absolutely indispensible.

Those are pretty much my recommendations. I haven't been thrilled with other books that I've read, though I am pretty excited about The Boys of Winter, as I'm still trying to get a clear picture of Soviet hockey.

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11-15-2007, 06:31 AM
  #109
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As as aside, VanI, are you a soldier?
I teach English to Koreans.

Frightened Inmate #2 is aiming to become a soldier. He was to have bootcamp this fall. Wonder how that's coming for him.

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11-15-2007, 06:55 AM
  #110
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I teach English to Koreans.
So a soldier for properly conjugated verbs then?

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11-15-2007, 10:45 AM
  #111
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One thing about Beliveau is his leadership. He is in my opinion the greatest leader in NHL history, a fact which cannot be ignored when building a "real team" (an ironic term for what we're doing, I know) and not just a collection of talent. Beliveau's GM can probably give you more reasons why he deserves to remain an ATD top-10 sacred cow.
Absolutely. I'm not arguing against Beliveau, only that its not clear that he "made" Geoffrion the player he is.

From my own statistical analysis, allowing for lots of other factors beyond numbers as well, after Howe I think Jagr, LaFleur, Geoffrion, Bossy, etc are all pretty close together.

I think they're a fair bit in front of the next group with Conacher, Bathgate et al. But then, there is a lot of room for differences of perception and methodolgy in analyzing players.

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11-15-2007, 11:06 AM
  #112
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It has much to do with the nature of the "team building" aspect of the draft. There was a rush on goalies and defensemen. 27 of the 47 players taken before Geoffrion were goalies or defensemen, including 14 of the 19 taken in the 2nd round.

A top 100 players list would look very different from the first 100 picks of the draft.

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11-15-2007, 02:44 PM
  #113
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It has much to do with the nature of the "team building" aspect of the draft. There was a rush on goalies and defensemen. 27 of the 47 players taken before Geoffrion were goalies or defensemen, including 14 of the 19 taken in the 2nd round.

A top 100 players list would look very different from the first 100 picks of the draft.

I've done a couple of ATDs, one here and one elsewhere (the one here was pretty damn good learning experience, I got my ass kicked), and I found one thing that tends to happen with a lot of GMs (thought not all) is that watching goalies go in particular you'll see the dominos start to fall after the first five all-time greats are taken. Obviously it speaks to team building as you said, but in the end you don't want to be caught without someone to dance with once the music starts.

EDIT: Also, once the play-offs matches are set I'd be happy to take a load of PMs to determine the winner and to be of assistance with the write-ups.

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11-15-2007, 03:36 PM
  #114
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It has much to do with the nature of the "team building" aspect of the draft. There was a rush on goalies and defensemen. 27 of the 47 players taken before Geoffrion were goalies or defensemen, including 14 of the 19 taken in the 2nd round.

A top 100 players list would look very different from the first 100 picks of the draft.
Bingo. In fact, I think Geoffrion's status gets elevated with a playoff format. I think Boom Boom is one of three players to have double digits in playoff points in eight straight years. Very impressive. I wouldn't say he's a top 10 all-time forward. But I would say he's top 10 all-time for RWs, and you could make a case for him ahead of someone like Kurri, Conacher and Cook (other well-rounded RWs in the top 10) because of Geoffrion's big-game mentality. (And yes, I know Kurri was great in the playoffs).

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11-15-2007, 03:38 PM
  #115
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I've done a couple of ATDs, one here and one elsewhere (the one here was pretty damn good learning experience, I got my ass kicked), and I found one thing that tends to happen with a lot of GMs (thought not all) is that watching goalies go in particular you'll see the dominos start to fall after the first five all-time greats are taken. Obviously it speaks to team building as you said, but in the end you don't want to be caught without someone to dance with once the music starts.

EDIT: Also, once the play-offs matches are set I'd be happy to take a load of PMs to determine the winner and to be of assistance with the write-ups.
TC, where the hell have you been? Welcome back. We missed having you around.

I wouldn't say you got your ass kicked in ATD #6. You finished ahead of Mr. All-Time Draft, LL, in the regular season (okay, LL and BM share the Mr. ATD status), and you took LL's Toronto Turmoil, er, Maple Leafs, to a seventh game. Of course, if you would have beat Toronto, you would have lost to Trail in quick fashion in the next round, but I digress.

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11-15-2007, 04:35 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
He's one wing on arguably the best line in the draft, in my opinion. I should also mention that I find the makeup of the Mahovlich - Abel - Geoffrion line quite cool. Ignoring Maurice Richard, you've got the three greatest Golden Age players at their respective positions (and on their respective teams) from the three great Golden Age teams. It's kind of frightening.
Nothing against Mahovlich - Abel - Geoffrion line obviously, but that's even more non-sense or discredit thrown (indirectly this time) at me on your behalf.

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11-15-2007, 05:14 PM
  #117
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TC, where the hell have you been? Welcome back. We missed having you around.

I wouldn't say you got your ass kicked in ATD #6. You finished ahead of Mr. All-Time Draft, LL, in the regular season (okay, LL and BM share the Mr. ATD status), and you took LL's Toronto Turmoil, er, Maple Leafs, to a seventh game. Of course, if you would have beat Toronto, you would have lost to Trail in quick fashion in the next round, but I digress.
I was *away* from HF for awhile, did another ATD at another board, didn't get to the point where we actually finished the playoffs, but we did do the draft and I had a much better idea of what I was trying to build, next time around I'll hopefully catch on here as a GM or help someone else out as a Co-GM since that seems to be the direction the ATD is going with its increase in popularity.

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11-15-2007, 05:34 PM
  #118
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Geoffrion absolutely does deserve mention among the greatest playoff performers in history, and I get the impression that he'd have played more regular season games (and obviously put up better numbers) if not for the fact that the Habs often rested him to get him healthy for the postseason. I think the same thing likely happened with Dickie Moore. It's not as if those Habs teams were fighting for a playoff spot in the regular season. I wasn't alive or was very young at the time all of this was going on so it's mainly conjecture on my part, but that's the impression I've always gotten. Maybe pappy has a clearer picture?

.
Don't ever remember teams resting players for the playoffs back in those days. Could be wrong though as I was a kid. Habs were probably the only team with enough depth to consider that option. Still, I doubt it was done.

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11-15-2007, 08:09 PM
  #119
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Personally, there's more players below Geoffrion that I'd take above him (Ie Newsy Lalonde) then there are players above him that I'd take below him (Ie Tim Horton)
What if you had Doug Harvey on your team? Could you decline a chance at reuniting arguably the greatest powerplay tandem on the point of all time?

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11-15-2007, 08:11 PM
  #120
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Here's something I worked on for the Dick Duff HHoF thread. All these guys won 6 or more Cups.

Finals Scoring on First & Game Winning goals
PlayerGoalsAssistsPointsFirst GFirst AFirst Pts%GWGGWAGWPts%
Dick Duff14193351354.5%3936.4%
Jean Beliveau303262151141.9%9827.4%
Maurice Richard3411459428.9%8324.4%
Henri Richard1926454520%4826.7%
Bernie Geoffrion2421457935.6%6728.9%
Dickie Moore1021314632.3%2316.1%
Frank Mahovlich1625412824.4%2312.2%
Good work BM. Thanks for that.

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11-15-2007, 10:06 PM
  #121
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He's one wing on arguably the best line in the draft, in my opinion. I should also mention that I find the makeup of the Mahovlich - Abel - Geoffrion line quite cool. Ignoring Maurice Richard, you've got the three greatest Golden Age players at their respective positions (and on their respective teams) from the three great Golden Age teams. It's kind of frightening.
maybe i don't understand this, but are you saying abel>beliveau, geoffrion>howe, mahovlich>lindsay?

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11-15-2007, 10:10 PM
  #122
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maybe i don't understand this, but are you saying abel>beliveau, geoffrion>howe, mahovlich>lindsay?
I think he's saying that it's the best player at his position from each of the three great Golden Age teams - so Abel is the best center from the dynasty Wings etc.

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11-15-2007, 10:25 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Transplanted Caper View Post
I was *away* from HF for awhile, did another ATD at another board, didn't get to the point where we actually finished the playoffs, but we did do the draft and I had a much better idea of what I was trying to build, next time around I'll hopefully catch on here as a GM or help someone else out as a Co-GM since that seems to be the direction the ATD is going with its increase in popularity.
Where else do they do ATD?

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11-15-2007, 10:27 PM
  #124
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I think he's saying that it's the best player at his position from each of the three great Golden Age teams - so Abel is the best center from the dynasty Wings etc.
thx, pitseleh, that makes sense.

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11-16-2007, 01:49 AM
  #125
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Nothing against Mahovlich - Abel - Geoffrion line obviously, but that's even more non-sense or discredit thrown (indirectly this time) at me on your behalf.
What pit said.

It was a hard idea to get across, but what I meant was that except for Geoffrion (who is clearly not as good as Richard), he's got three forwards who were the best at their position on their team from each of the great golden age teams. Mahovlich is the best Leafs LW, Abel the best Wings C and Geoffrion the 2nd best Habs RW. No, I was not making a comparison of Dickie Moore and Frank Mahovlich, nor Pocket vs. Abel.

Obviously Moore - Richard - Richard is among the best lines in the draft. If I had a second favorite line after pappy's (ignoring my own), that would be it. Dickie and the Rocket are a couple of my favorite all-time players, because of both talent and personality. I wasn't in love with where you took Henri Richard, but nevertheless, I think the three will play extremely good 2-way hockey.

Can we put this to rest, MXD? At no point has it been my intention to discredit you, and I don't recall saying anything about your team other than that Phil Watson was a lousy coach (luckily he's your 4th line center, and a very good one - he's got third line skill) and that Zubov can be pushed around by stronger forwards.

I'm not going to apologize for my annoyance at your comments on Harry Cameron, which had nothing to do with hockey and little to do with reality as far as I can tell. I realize that you were probably using "he'll show up drunk at a few games" as a general statement about Cameron's reliability as a team player (which you are right to criticize) given what we already know about him, but I find it a little offensive when anyone takes a cavalier attitude to something as serious as alcoholism. It's almost macabre at times how personal we get in our evaluations of these players as individuals and in a team setting; I do it too. Nevertheless, I think there is a line which should be respected when discussing their qualities as people.

I will apologize for the "inconsistent" comment. What I said was rather harsh, at least insofar as how I said it. I'm sorry.

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