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Bob Mackenzie on the Hart Trophy

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Old
04-01-2004, 12:52 PM
  #51
David Puddy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rye&ginger
yes, Im just saying goalies should be excluded from skater awards. I dont recall pitcher's winning the MVP in baseball. Is that because they cant, or just arent voted for the award?
Pitchers have won the MVP in baseball 19 times since 1931. That includes 11 in the American League and 8 in the National League, as MLB gives the award to one player from each of its two leagues each season.
(source: Baseball Almanac)

Hockey and baseball share several similarities. A major one is between the importance of goaltending and pitching to their respective sports. It is often said in baseball that you canít win without good pitching. Many in hockey are of the opinion that you canít win with out good goaltending. If the players at either of the positions are utterly bad, the rest of the team is in major trouble.

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04-01-2004, 01:39 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Puddy
Pitchers have won the MVP in baseball 19 times since 1931. That includes 11 in the American League and 8 in the National League, as MLB gives the award to one player from each of its two leagues each season.
(source: Baseball Almanac)

Hockey and baseball share several similarities. A major one is between the importance of goaltending and pitching to their respective sports. It is often said in baseball that you canít win without good pitching. Many in hockey are of the opinion that you canít win with out good goaltending. If the players at either of the positions are utterly bad, the rest of the team is in major trouble.
Not to skew this conversation...but that is a bad analogy. Goaltending is nowhere near the importance of Pitching.

Pitching and goaltending are part of the defensive aspect of their sports. But Pitching determines the quality of the opponents' hits. Similar to the defense of a hockey team determines the quality of shots.

Goaltending is more like the fielding aspect of Baseball. As long as your defense limits quality of shots and your goalie keeps ERRORs to a minimum, your team will most likely have a good GAA.

So Pitching is much more important than Goaltending to their respective sports. I will say that Goaltending is more important than fielding in baseball, but not much.

How often are fielders blamed for hits that are just good hits? Same thing is true for goalies.

The problem is in hockey, goaltending seems to stand out more because good defense is not easy for uneducated fans to see. A great save is always easy to spot. (just like a great fielding effort).

Anyway....sorry to deviate from the topic so much. I just don't like the way goalies are portrayed in the media and such.

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04-01-2004, 04:50 PM
  #53
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Of course Gomez is the only better than 3rd line center on the team (offensively). So it makes sense that Elias would output more with him on the line.
Madden, Kozlov.... both great centers. Zach Parise, future superstar center....


Gomez is amazing. He's quickly becoming the best playmaker in the NHL.

Him and Elias should share the Most Valueable Devil award.

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04-01-2004, 07:10 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DownFromNJ
Zach Parise, future superstar center....
A bit of over-ratedness there IMO

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04-01-2004, 08:07 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DownFromNJ
[Gomez] and Elias should share the Most Valueable Devil award.
On a secret ballot announced today, April 1, by the Defending Stanley Cup Champion New Jersey Devils, Scott Niedermayer is this year's chosen Most Valuable Devil.

It is the first time since Stephane Richer won it in 1994-95 that Martin Brodeur was not selected (Brodeur tied Patrik Elias for the award in the 2000-01 season.)

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Old
04-01-2004, 08:36 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WCJr
This is really a statement on the state of our game, when a waiver pick up turns into the most exciting player its a commentary on the league more than the player...sorry.
Can you honestly say with a straight face that St. Louis is NOT a talented player. I can go on and rave about his skills, in fact part of the reason I think the Lightning have so many goal scorers is because of him. I don't think there is a single team who wouldn't take Marty St. Louis.

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04-01-2004, 08:45 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AGraveOne
Anyway, Elias should be a candidate. He is more valuable to the Devils this year than any other player with Nieds maybe being his equal.
Thats simply not true, Niedermayer is definately the Devils MVP. Although I doubt the Devils make it to the playoffs with out either player, there is some good talent with the New Jersey forwards (well if all their players produced like they should have). Our defense however has taken a 180, going from one of the deepest, to maybe one of the thinnest with all the injuries. Stevens out for an extended period of time and both White and Rafalski taking a few days off, Niedermayer was the string that held the defense together. He also helped improve Paul Martin into a very reliable defenseman. Plus he shouldered a new found respondsibility with the 'C' on his chest and has been drifting around 30:00 minutes of ice-time a night. Elias is my favorite Devil, but Niedermayer deserves more recognition for the Hart than he does.

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Old
04-01-2004, 09:29 PM
  #58
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St. Louis will win it. after tonights game.. 2 G, NHL scoring leader.. and look at his +/-!! and also look at his SHG... he's got freakin EIGHT Short handed Goals...

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Old
04-01-2004, 10:00 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MissionHockey
Thats simply not true, Niedermayer is definately the Devils MVP. Although I doubt the Devils make it to the playoffs with out either player, there is some good talent with the New Jersey forwards (well if all their players produced like they should have). Our defense however has taken a 180, going from one of the deepest, to maybe one of the thinnest with all the injuries. Stevens out for an extended period of time and both White and Rafalski taking a few days off, Niedermayer was the string that held the defense together. He also helped improve Paul Martin into a very reliable defenseman. Plus he shouldered a new found respondsibility with the 'C' on his chest and has been drifting around 30:00 minutes of ice-time a night. Elias is my favorite Devil, but Niedermayer deserves more recognition for the Hart than he does.
I'll give Nieds some credit - no doubt. (And apparently the Devils thought he deserved it as well...so how can i fully dispute that worth) Anyway, the games i have watched it seems to me that Elias was the guy that stepped up when the team needed it. But in all truth, it is much harder to see the impact of a defenseman...so i have no problem with him being claimed as such.

In the games i saw though, Elias still deserves consideration...he is truly awesome. Deft moves that create space and a fantastic shot.

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04-01-2004, 10:02 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DownFromNJ
Madden, Kozlov.... both great centers. Zach Parise, future superstar center....


Gomez is amazing. He's quickly becoming the best playmaker in the NHL.

Him and Elias should share the Most Valueable Devil award.
Where was he (Gomez) the first half of the season?

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Old
04-01-2004, 10:04 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyNucksFan
St. Louis will win it. after tonights game.. 2 G, NHL scoring leader.. and look at his +/-!! and also look at his SHG... he's got freakin EIGHT Short handed Goals...

i personally felt he was GOING to win for about a month now.


problem is i don't think he SHOULD. And i've tried to plead my case (unsuccessfully) to a lot of people.

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Old
04-02-2004, 09:27 AM
  #62
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St. Louis is a lock to win it and has been for over a month now. Argue all you want, there will be some players missed.

1st in points - 93 (Only 30 on the PP)
1st in Assists - 56
Tied for 3rd in Goals 37
1st in +/- +35
1st in SHG - 8
1st in SHP - 11
Tied for 4th in GWG - 7
17.6% Shooting percentage

I know these are all numbers, but he's head over heels the Most Valuable Player to his team and the best player in the NHL this year

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Old
04-02-2004, 09:37 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Owen Wilson
I know these are all numbers, but he's head over heels the Most Valuable Player to his team
If St.Louis doesn't score, then Lecavalier does, or Richards, or Modin, or Stillman, or Fedotenko, or Andreychuk. St.Louis might have been the best forward, but I beg to differ saying he's the most valueble player in the league. He will win the Art Ross for everything he's done, but there are far more important players for their team than St.louis.

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Old
04-02-2004, 10:06 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loveshack2
"Everyone has pet peeves, and I'm no different. Mine is what the Hart Trophy is becoming. Somehow, somewhere, the most prestigious individual regular season honour that was always bestowed upon the best player in the NHL has morphed into some bizarre debate about who means more to his team."

http://www.tsn.ca/columnists/bob_mckenzie.asp?id=78264

Couldn't agree more. Forget about which player means more to his individual team, the Hart Trophy is supposed to go to the best overall player in the NHL. For the record here are his picks for who should win, I dont believe they're in the online article but he gave them on TSN this evening.

1. Martin St. Louis
2. Ilya Kovalchuk
3. Roberto Luongo
4. Peter Forsberg
5. Miika Kiprusoff
UHHHHHHH.... Bob

Maybe it is because that is the reason the Hart is awarded. HMMMMMMMMM????

"The Hart Memorial Trophy is an annual award given to the player judged to be the most valuable to his team. The winner is selected in a poll of the Professional Hockey Writers' Association in all NHL cities at the end of the regular season. "
http://nhl.com/hockeyu/history/trophies/hart.html

The outstanding player trophy is the Lester B. Pearson Award from the NHLPA and is voted on by the players.
http://www2.nhl.com/hockeyu/history/...s/pearson.html

You would think even Bob Mackenzie could get at least that right.

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Old
04-02-2004, 10:52 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loveshack2
"Everyone has pet peeves, and I'm no different. Mine is what the Hart Trophy is becoming. Somehow, somewhere, the most prestigious individual regular season honour that was always bestowed upon the best player in the NHL has morphed into some bizarre debate about who means more to his team."

http://www.tsn.ca/columnists/bob_mckenzie.asp?id=78264

Couldn't agree more. Forget about which player means more to his individual team, the Hart Trophy is supposed to go to the best overall player in the NHL. For the record here are his picks for who should win, I dont believe they're in the online article but he gave them on TSN this evening.

1. Martin St. Louis
2. Ilya Kovalchuk
3. Roberto Luongo
4. Peter Forsberg
5. Miika Kiprusoff
If its going to the best overall player the one dimensional Kovalchuk has no place on the list nor would any goaltender.Thats why it makes sense to award the hart to the most valuable to his team.

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Old
04-02-2004, 10:53 AM
  #66
Owen Wilson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Modano = God
If St.Louis doesn't score, then Lecavalier does, or Richards, or Modin, or Stillman, or Fedotenko, or Andreychuk. St.Louis might have been the best forward, but I beg to differ saying he's the most valueble player in the league. He will win the Art Ross for everything he's done, but there are far more important players for their team than St.louis.
let's see

Tampa's record when St. Louis registers a point: 40-6-3-5
Tampa's record when St. Louis doesn't register a point: 6-15-5-1

So as I said before, when St. Louis isn't on, the rest of the team isn't either. You'll notice that each little slump St. Louis had coincided with a Tampa Bay slump

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