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Old
04-01-2004, 09:06 PM
  #26
swinginutter*
 
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"KingsFan7824"................i'll just say all your points are well taken. Your comments are really good.

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Except come playoff time, if you don't have depth, you're not going to win. Murray kept the LAPD line togther in that series against the Avs. And they might have won too. Except that Deadmarsh got hurt, and then Allison went down. They had no depth.
You can play anyone you want together on the power play. And there's nothing that says when you need to late in the game, you can't put the top players together. But over the course of the game, if you only have 1 line, it's too easy to shut your team down in the playoffs.
I think we've sorted out the depth thing the last two seasons, and hopefully more to come. I personally don't believe that we're a one line wonder team, even when we had the LAPD line. To me it had more to do with our goaltending. And, I don't believe in scattering the talent. TOP SIX.....SHOULD BE TOP SIX (Players)

Quote:
How does Murray taunt them? In practice, does he dance in a circle around the player, chanting, "you're not going to play today...nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah"? "I have all the power...ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!"? Has Murray ever benched a player for talking to the media? If he has, please refresh my memory. I'm seriously asking, because if he has, I just flat out don't remember it.
Maybe the word taunting is a bit much, but going public has the same effect. He singles out certain players is all i'm saying. They're big boys, and they probably don't even give a ***** anyways. But what *****ing game is he watching half of the time. Next game simply just watch the players that i've bashed....yet they seem to do no wrong. Example for the next game.......just keep your eyes on Aaron Miller.....He's absolutely disgraceful! And, he's been overrated from day one here! He'll log loads of minutes too!

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04-01-2004, 09:36 PM
  #27
punchy1
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(I can't get the underline option on my compy to work so please take any words you see in caps and simply imagine underlines under them instead. Im not yelling or anything like that, I just want to add some punctuation in some places and can't. Sorry for the bother on that.)




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Originally Posted by KingsFan7824
Because nobody played well.

Let me understand this right, you feel that I and many others are being critical of Andys asset management and using Frolov and Straka as two of the examples because the team weren't playing well? Are you having a piss mate? If you aren't, what do you possibly think that has to do with what I asked you in the slightest?

I mean, I don't even know where or how to respond to it.


Did Avery get benched for saying that the lineup they had in Calgary(absent Frolov) should be the lineup they go with for the rest of the season because in that game it seemed the the players actually tried?

Again mate, What are you talking about? Is it right that Andy singles out some players in the press while giving others who are playing SIGNIFICANTLY WORSE and have all season long a free ride AND THEN says that none of them are allowed to talk to the press about the team? Your answer is again either meant as a pissup (sorry if I am not getting it mate) or you simply truly don't see the difference between the two. It is an issue of hypocrisy. Is Andy, a bloke who says that he is where the buck stops and a member of our team actually in fact a member, or, is he not and allowing some (he allowed Belanger to question the play of their "young players" in the press with no retribution as well as Allison to say some pretty daft things with no punishment either, obviously I am not just reffering to the Avery situation)



The Kings needed their best players playing at the best when the Kings needed them the most. No coach calls out the play of the role players, but they do say they need more from their top players.

Again let me make certain I understand this, what you are saying is that it is fine for Andy to single out Frolov in the press and by cutting his ice time and then benching him because he is a top player when he has a slight drop off in his game (Obviously due to the fact that ANDY were playing MUSICAL LINEMATES pairing a 21 year old SOPHMORE with Anson "I truly suck" Carter and cutting his ice time down by over 4mins a game as well) and yet, players like Belanger, a player that were supposedly a top sixer who Andy gives more than 17:00 ATOI to all season long and who Andy his self has said is "Eric is one of the best at what he does in the league"(he might have said game but either way, it means the same) and NEVER cuts his ice time, calls him out in the press or is critical of in ANY WAY AT ALL because YOU don't see him as a top player? Well mate, Andy certainly does.
Andy don't call him a "role player" and in fact, all I EVER hear Andy say about his players is that ALL of them are equally important to the teams success.

Frolov got screwed by Andy. Period. You can't even begin to tell me that you think Andy were right in cutting his ice time down to less than 15mins a game and then calling him out in the press and benching him when Belanger, OUR WORST DEFENCIVE PLAYER got his ice time increased and not a word were said about his lack of production for the entire season let alone that short stretch of games that Andy was talking about. Truly mate, you CANNOT be serious about that one.



Some players should be held to a higher standard than others. If they're the top players, they need to produce that way when it comes down to crunch time.

Here is the crux of your problem I reckon mate. ALL players should be held to the SAME level of accountability. ALL of them perform a critical function for our team and ALL of them should have to play like a "professional" all of the time. If you want to use ANYTHING as a supporting arguement to establish WHO should and SHOULDN'T be held more accountable over the other players, then wouldn't you use the amount of ice time that they receive per game and what they do with it as the high water marks and not the name on their sweaters? OF COURSE YOU WOULD.

Eric Belanger on the season averages 17:00 even per game. He has scored 31 points and is a team leading -18! That is more than -20 worse than Sean Avery! - 16 worse than his line mate Lappy! Though of more importance is this dandybob of a stat, during this ten game stretch in which Frolov (amoung others) were singled out by the perfect Andy, Belanger produced exactly TWO POINTS (atoi 17:21) and went a typical for him -6!

Lets have a look at the "struggling and not producing for us" Frolovs stats during that same time. He had 6! points (4g 2a) and were a minus 4 while receiving ATOI of 16:21. He had several games where accountability Andy gave him a whopping 12:22 mins of ice and yet, you would say that it is FROLOVS FAULT he weren't scoring? He STILL outscored Belanger/Carter/Klatt/Armstrong/Luc and several others during that stretch AND had a better plus minus even though he were paired with that stinking pile of perimeter play Carter for 3 games.

Sorry mate, you "arguement' simply lacks any supportive evidence in the slightest little bit. Andy is without a doubt a poor manager of his assets and it is a fact and provable beyond arguement. Gleasons game over Modrys. Strakas game over Carter, Belanger, Tripp, Chartrand etc etc etc to name but a few.



What's Murray supposed to do to himself? He can't bench himself.

Oh I don't know, stop being a hypocrite and hold his self up to the standards that he asks of his team? How about he admits that he were wrong in how he gave struggling players like Belanger, Carter, Tripp etc WAAAAAY to many chances that cost us games (a stat I have for you if you would like it is one that shows who were on the ice during game winning goals this season, it won't suprise you to know that for the season Belanger is the top and during this stretch it is Carter) and instead of holding each of them accountable equally for their play and contributions, he singled out Frolov Luc and Straka unfairly. That would be a nice start.



What do you define as "lately"? Is it the last 10 games? The last game? I don't know what Murray means by the word lately. He could mean almost anything.


I don't know mate, again I think you are simply having a piss. Of course he means during this stretch as that is when he were commenting and to your other point, the reason I fancy you as joking, of course he might have SAID that them lot had to step up but did he bench Carter? Did he bench ANY of the other players besides Frolov and Straka of the ones he named? NO, NOT AT ALL.

And he's called out other players too. After a month of saying Stumpel was their best forward, he said he had to step up his play. Same for Straka. Same for Carter. Same for Robitaille.



Where do they list Frolov as a healthy scratch? Every pregame they say he's out with an ankle injury. Go to ESPNs hockey site. Go to the Kings, go to the box scores of each of the games Frolov is out. It says "Scratches" then lists the players names and next to it says why they are out. Frolov is a healthy scratch. Go to the NHL.com site, Frolov is a healthy scratch. If Frolov is a healthy scratch now though, it is of little difference to me. Andy called him out in the press and then benched him. Whatever else happens is of no importance, Andy publicly singled out Frolov and his efforts and benched him. It is total bullscat that he did that to Frolov yet left Carter/Belanger/Tripp/Chartrand and several other players on the team and didn't single them out also by giving them the same treatment.



And if you want to know how Murray feels about Frolov, I suggest you check out the most recent "The Hockey News". Big story on the back cover about Frolov. Other than his reluctance to shoot on occasion, Murray has nothing but great things to say about him. If you can't check it out, I'll write the article here.

I read it and it is nice, what do you expect him to say though? The ENTIRE HOCKEY WORLD says that Frolov is a budding star and do you think Andy is going to say any different? Of course not, Andy isn't stupid. He is a great coach with a couple of massive flaws in my opinion, the way he has handled Frolov/Gleason/Camelleri/Rosa and a couple of others is only one of them.



Are those the only two he points out? No. He's said that plenty of players haven't done what the Kings needed them to do.

You are mincing mate. He may have SAID that the others needed to "be more accountable" for their games, he BENCHED Frolov and Straka when they were still producing, playing performing and any other stat or word you want to use to define their contributions SIGNIFICANTLY more than SEVERAL of the players that Andy DIDN'T bench. It SINGLES them out as the WORST offenders. The others may need to step up their games but THESE TWO need to sit they are playing so bad.



And the Kings got new players in trades, got players off the IR, all at the same time. The chemistry they had prior to that was lost when so many new players came into the lineup. It happens. They had no time to figure out who could play with who. They were in such a tight race, that if a player wasn't having a good game, he might not play as much. They didn't know where to put Straka, or who to play with Stumpel, or how to use Carter. They had to rush it, nothing worked, and they went on to lose 9 straight games. Too many players came back at once. If you want to say that's evidence that Murray can't coach talent, then you're not giving Murray any room.


Andy is a coach in the NHL. Other coaches have the same things happen all of the time and they typically tend to ease players back into the line up. They will use them on the third line and give them PP time and let them work their way back. Not Andy. He throws the new and returning players right up top and when it doesnt work who did he blame? He blamed the lads who have bled and produced for him All season long. He blamed Frolov. RUBBISH.


Was Murray supposed to know that Carter wouldn't score a goal? He tried it. He had to. Again, the Kings, out of nowhere, started to get as healthy as they've been for almost 2 years. With that many changes, you need to figure out who can play where. You blame Murray for putting players in a position to fail. Well, had he not put Carter(*****before***** we knew he wouldn't score) with players that could help him score, how is that fair to Carter? Had everyone known that Carter wouldn't even score A goal, then you have a point.


No, he had Carter on the third line where there were room for him and it forced Carter to play a small game of defence first and what happened? CARTER SCORED.

He then started giving Carter an average of 20:00 MINUTES PER GAME ON THE TOP LINES WHILE HE SAT STRAKA AND FROLOV. (as well as Stumpel and others)

What do YOU think the message is sent by doing that?


What, put him with a guy they brought in at the deadline to try and push the King to the playoffs? That was before we knew Carter wouldn't score a goal. I think that's a nice reward. I think that's Murray saying that he feels pretty good about Frolov, that he'll put him with the new guy and see if they can have some chemistry. It didn't work. Nobody had any chemistry because of all the lineup changes.

Really mate? Really? Then why in gods name did Andy BENCH FROLOV when CARTER IS THE ONE WHO DIDN'T SCORE? For gods sake mate, Frolov were producing, putting Carter on the line wasn't the problem and has never been claimed to be it, it is what Andy did AFTER Carter ruined the chemistry and flow/production of that line that is RUBBISH.



If Frolov was thinking about a bonus when the Kings needed wins, then I'd rather not have Frolov on the team. Who cares about bonuses. That's the least of the worries.

Are you having a piss with me mate? Truly, are you? Because if you aren't I have been waisting my time debating any of this with you if that is your actual response.


He sat Frolov for 1 game due to his play. He has an injured ankle. Seeing what Brown went through with an injured ankle this year, if the Kings are out of the playoffs, I'd rather not see Frolov injure the ankle worse.

Again, *********IF******* that is true then Andy should place Frolov on the IR and let the world know that Frolov was sat due to injury instead of letting us believe that he is simply not worthy of the ice time. Of course, that would mean that Andy would have to admit a mistake and I don't see it happening.



And what kind of an empty milestone is 50 points? Who cares about the individual numbers. He hit 45 points in his second year. That milestone is just as good.

It **********ISN'T********** an "empty milestone" to a kid in his second year with a contract that gives him a significant bonus for reaching it. He has a young family and is a PROFESSIONAL hockey player. That means he gets money to do the job and I don't bloody care if it is one or one million points, if HE feels it is important enough a milestone to make it a clause in his contract where HE earns more dosh for reaching it then IT IS an important one. I wouldn't EVER presume to be so cavalier with other peoples money if I were you.



That nobody on the team was playing well. Someone had to be benched. Benching a role player isn't going to send that message.

Right, so instead of benching the players who are and have sucked ALL SEASON LONG you spin the wheel and say "hummm, I certainly can't bench Belanger/Carter or any of the other lads because some might see them as "role players" even though I have never referred to them as such. I better bench a player who hasn't had even close to a fair shot since they came back from injury and a kid who has and is having a truly brilliant season for us so that the team will "get the message".

What message exactly do you think that sends mate? I truly don't get it.



Frolov was benched 1 game for his play. So was Straka. Straka came back the next game. If Frolov wasn't hurt, my guess is that he would've been back in there as well. Why do I think that? Because I don't think Murray has it out for Frolov. He benched him for A game, when the Kings were basically done anyway. It's really not that big of a deal.
We also differ here because while THIS season is over, Frolov and Straka WILL be on the team next season and THEY have been screwed over in favour of players who either may or may not be here. What message are you sending to them?

What do you think Frolov feels about this? Lets say he is fine and the unsubstantiated rumours of his being injured are simply that, rumours. What message is being sent to him. "I know you were playing really hard and were two points away from making some nice coin and that you exceeded everything that any of us really thought you would this season and played hurt and all, but I want to send a message to my role players who arent producing and you have to do it for me. Sorry about the money and the way I called you out in the papers"?

It is important mate. It does send a message, a truly awful one that is pure scat and rubbish.

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Old
04-01-2004, 10:15 PM
  #28
Sydor25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingsFan7824
Did Avery get benched for saying that the lineup they had in Calgary(absent Frolov) should be the lineup they go with for the rest of the season because in that game it seemed the the players actually tried?
No, but Avery did get benched for saying that the Kings lacked team toughness. And Avery was just saying what everyone else in the world was saying. The Kings are not a tough team to play against anymore.

Why does Avery only get 10 minutes of ice time? If you just look at this goal/point production, he should be getting more ice time. He is 10th on the Kings in points and 8th in goals, yet he is 24th in ice time (among players with at least 10 games).

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04-02-2004, 10:34 AM
  #29
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Next game simply just watch the players that i've bashed....yet they seem to do no wrong. Example for the next game.......just keep your eyes on Aaron Miller.....He's absolutely disgraceful!
I'm not saying Miller shouldn't sit. But Manchester is getting ready for the playoffs. If the Kings want to send Gleason down so he can build some chemistry with that team, that's fine. After last year, the Monarchs need to come togeher as a team for the playoffs. It's not like Gleason hasn't played almost 50 games in the NHL this year. He's gotten his NHL experience in his first season. That doesn't leave much in the way of spare players on the Kings that can play if needed. Murray went with the veteran in crunch time, and Miller has been there before. It didnt work. Miller probably isn't completely healed, and looking back, he probably shouldn't have come back(or Straka). But at the time, getting Miller back sounded pretty good.

Quote:
We also differ here because while THIS season is over, Frolov and Straka WILL be on the team next season and THEY have been screwed over in favour of players who either may or may not be here. What message are you sending to them?
You worry about next year, next year, if there is a next year. They're not being screwed over.

Quote:
What do you think Frolov feels about this? Lets say he is fine and the unsubstantiated rumours of his being injured are simply that, rumours. What message is being sent to him. "I know you were playing really hard and were two points away from making some nice coin and that you exceeded everything that any of us really thought you would this season and played hurt and all, but I want to send a message to my role players who arent producing and you have to do it for me. Sorry about the money and the way I called you out in the papers"?
If Frolov isn't in the lineup anymore and he's not hurt, I'll agree with you. But every pregame, and everyday in the paper, they say he's hurt. I just don't believe that Murray has it out for Frolov.

Quote:
It is important mate. It does send a message, a truly awful one that is pure scat and rubbish
But that's assuming Frolov isn't hurt. Other than the Calgary game, when he was scratched because of his recent play, he's out with an injured ankle. If there was reason to believe that Frolov isn't hurt, then once again, I'll agree with you.

I think that's where the major disagreement is. You think Murray has taken food out of the Frolov family's mouth, disrespected him as a player, has it out for him because he just can't wait to go to the media to rip on a 2nd year forward, and is lying about Frolov's injury. If he is, then Murray shouldn't be the coach.

I think he sat him for a game because of his play when the Kings were already out of it, hasn't gone out of his way to rip anyone over anyone else in the papers, and probably doesn't even know about the bonus in Frolov's contract(I didn't either). And, if Murray has a problem with Allison because he MIGHT have tanked the season with a less than serious injury, why would he lie about Frolov's injury?

Quote:
No, but Avery did get benched for saying that the Kings lacked team toughness
Fair point. But it's not like he was banished from the team, never to play again.

Quote:
Why does Avery only get 10 minutes of ice time? If you just look at this goal/point production, he should be getting more ice time. He is 10th on the Kings in points and 8th in goals, yet he is 24th in ice time (among players with at least 10 games).
It's not fair to say 24th on the team in ice time. Defensemen, no matter who it is, always get more time than the forwards, outside of the top forwards in the game. But either way, he is one of the lowest forwards in ice time. But there's a reason for that.

Why only 10 minutes? Because most players get around 10-15 minutes a night at even strength. You make up the rest on the PK and PP. Avery doesn't kill penalties yet, because he's in the box most of the time, and you can't always trust him not to take a penalty while he's killing a penalty anyway. He has 259 PIM's in 74 games. That's an average of 3.5 minutes a night in the penalty box. Add those 3-4 minutes, plus that you can't play him on the PK yet, and it takes away from his total minutes.

But he has been good at even strength. He's one of their top scorers 5-5.

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04-02-2004, 11:20 AM
  #30
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Even though it has been proven to you by stats and actual reported news pieces. Even though there are facts, not opinion, not conjecture that prove these facts to be true, you respond with this,

"I just don't believe that Murray has it out for Frolov".


Firstly, that isn't what is being said, it isn't a case of Andy having it out for Frolov, it IS a case of Andy during an awful job at managing his assets. It is a case of Andy Murray benching and calling out players that are producing while rewarding those that are costing us actual points.

You simply are not showing any signs of begining to come close to understanding the position that is being shown by many of us and I have spent every second of time that I am going to on this. If we were getting anything close to a susbtantive response where you actually refute the facts as well as the real problems, then of course it would be a fun an interesting debate.


As it is, we are getting nowhere and I am done with that mate.


We are Kings fans and we don't agree with each other on this one and will get nowhere since you will not address the facts. Also, it simply doesn't matter.

In the end, we are just Kings fans who have different opinions and that is fine with me mate. Time will show what the propper course should have been.


This time, we will simply have to agree to disagree in my case, I can't do anything more than use facts to back up my position, if that isn't enough then there is nothing more to do.


Sorry mate, I am done. (extending hand so we can shake and find other topics to debate or chat about.)

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04-02-2004, 02:39 PM
  #31
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Quote:
I'm not saying Miller shouldn't sit. But Manchester is getting ready for the playoffs. If the Kings want to send Gleason down so he can build some chemistry with that team, that's fine. After last year, the Monarchs need to come togeher as a team for the playoffs. It's not like Gleason hasn't played almost 50 games in the NHL this year. He's gotten his NHL experience in his first season. That doesn't leave much in the way of spare players on the Kings that can play if needed. Murray went with the veteran in crunch time, and Miller has been there before. It didnt work. Miller probably isn't completely healed, and looking back, he probably shouldn't have come back(or Straka). But at the time, getting Miller back sounded pretty good.
JASON HOLLAND.

I never said anything about Tim Gleason. I'm fine with him playing with Manchester at this point. But the damage has been done. Again, AM makes these decisions. Bottom line is only a handful of players decided to show up in the end. (Last 15 games). The whole ongoing roller-coaster simply has to do with who AM chooses, and that's all! And, I still stand behind my comments of horrid assessment of players. AM makes the rules......I can live with that. Just make sure it includes every player on that ice!

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04-02-2004, 03:35 PM
  #32
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That is the point that is being entirely missed. To argue that Andychrist does a great job because he benches his top players because it doesn't mean anything when you bench your "role" players is absolutely daft when it IS your ROLE PLAYERS WHO ARE SUCKING!

"You lot, you have been giving it your all and producing well enough, not as much as I would like mind you, but, since I am not giving you the propper time and tools to achieve what I have set forth for you and you aren't scoring more and playing without ANY mistake in your own end, I am going to make an example out of you to show those other guys I mean business".


"Whats that? Of course I know that THEY have played significantly worse than you have all season long and were actually on the ice for several of the game winning goals against us during this important stretch and you weren't. Of course I know that they receive more ice time and chances to succede than you do. Of course I am aware that Belanger is MINUS 19! this season and his ATOI is over 17 mins a game when you have scored 20 more points than him while getting less ice time on average and being tossed around the lines. Yes I know that Carter has sucked twice as bad as ANYONE else on the team has".

"That has nothing to do with this. I mean, if I bench them, I can't send them or anyone else a message, can I? I am going to call YOU out in the papers for "failing the team" to show those guys, the lads who have failed since they got here or all season long that I mean business!"


About as daft an arguement as I have ever seen and effectively what is being positioned from the other side in this debate.



Andychrist or Accountability Andy has done an awful job at managing ALL of his assets this year and it is due to this that we once again were only good enough to make everyone believe that we might could maybe be able to sneak into the playoffs again.

To me, you are either in a position win the cup, or getting yourself in that position. None of this "we are professionals who are hard to play against" rubbish. We should be that anyways as part of being a pro athelete.



In fact, he has done a poor enough job at this that you have to wonder what will happen with our top young talent.



We have Hogeboom (21) Kanko (20) Clarke (22) Camelleri (22) Gleason (21) Grebeshkov (21) Rome (21) Karlson (22) Steckel (22) Zizka (24) and a few others who are ready to either be on the team or be getting call ups next year not to mention players like Rosa and Muir who though good enough will never see the light of an NHL arena unless they buy a ticket and I am truly wondering if Mr Accountability is the right man for the job.


Oh and don't give me the old "he did a grand job with his highschool team" because they were ALL HIGHSCHOOLERS and this is a totally different set of dynamics where we have seen the type of players that HE favours.

Andy will play the CJ's Emmerson Belangers Carters and other struggling to costing the team points veteran players instead of giving a kid a fair shot and then KEEPING HIM IN THE SPOT ONCE HE PROVES HE BELONGS THERE.


Enough, I am done, Andy is fine, lets see how this goes next year and after he is fired for taking us nowhere again, lets see A) how many of our lads are still OUR lads and B) how many IF ANY of them are with the team or in the minors and out of them, how many have their games totally ruined along with their confidence.

Of course, Andy IS one of them coaches who will start showing us dead soon to be a guy who blames his players for his mistakes and when they don't produce what he wants from them, he will either relinquish them to the minors until they are able to leave or deal them off and as in the case of Jason Blake and a couple of others, we will see how grand they truly are.

Of course, that will be while they are on another team.


And all I and the rest of us will be able to do is say I told you so. I think so anyways.

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