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Old
12-03-2007, 11:02 PM
  #76
Sens Rule
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Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
Looking over the list of HOFers, I'll admit there are a lot more guys who I would deem borderline than I expected to find. Bill Mosienko certainly stood out as surprising to name one. Yeah, based on what the Hall actually is, I'll concede that Sundin probably deserves to be in there afterall. But going back to what I said earlier, based on that, you probably have to induct 30 guys from the 1990-2005 span, which just seems insanely high to me, but maybe that's the way it has always been.
The HHOF is kinda nutty to me. No way should Mark Howe who was a top 5 D-Man in the NHL for nearly a decade and played great in the playoffs... and has 6 more years as a star WHA forward be waiting for induction.

With Goalies they seem to be really, really strict and the only goalies we will likely see inducted from the mid 80's - date will be Fuhr, Brodeur, Roy, Hasek, Belfour. Joesph, Barrasso, Richter, Vernon, Moog will all likely never get inducted. But then you look at the forwards and the Federko's and Sundin's and Modano's and so on will get inducted. Is a consistently great goalie... if only in the regular season not more important or at least as important as a forward. If Federko makes it shouldn't Mike Liut?

35 goalies have been inducted in history. 1970's goalies inducted are only Esposito, Dryden, Cheevers, Parent. How amny 1970's forwards were inducted? Vachon isn't worthy of the HHOF?

Goalies are by far the most important players in winning games. They should be over-represented in the HHOF instead of under-represented.

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Old
12-04-2007, 12:00 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
that's my point exactly...Goulet's overall status in the game looks much better compared to LW's than it does compared to centres.

The majority of great forwards play centre because it generally has the most impact on the game (and is therefore a position they're placed in as a youth superstar).

10 of the top 20 scorers in the NHL are centres, and this is about average for any given year.

There's 70 centres in the hall, and 75 LW and RW combined. So it stands to reason that it's a lot harder to crack the top-20 at the centre position than it is on the wings. It's also the reason why guys like Mickey Redmond and Steve Shutt have more allstar selections than centres like Yzerman and Stastny.
We actually have the same arguments/opinions. We just have opposite "conclusions". I don't think there should be one LW for one C (and one RW, and so on...), but playing an under-reprensented position should be a clincher.

And just what exactly Darryl Sittler did more than Michel Goulet?? AFAIK, both have no Cups, but at least one of them can brag about being one of the two faces of one club (The Nords), while the other can brag about being one of the 46 faces of the Leafs.

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12-04-2007, 02:14 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Badger Bob View Post
Why would Sundin and Modano be considered borderline?
Sundin is a lock, so is Modano.

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Old
12-04-2007, 02:19 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Cup 2008 Sens Rule View Post
The HHOF is kinda nutty to me. No way should Mark Howe who was a top 5 D-Man in the NHL for nearly a decade and played great in the playoffs... and has 6 more years as a star WHA forward be waiting for induction.
Wow...I had no idea he wasn't in the HHOF. He was great for a long time. Did he ever win a Cup?

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12-04-2007, 02:51 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by shanwon View Post
Wow...I had no idea he wasn't in the HHOF. He was great for a long time. Did he ever win a Cup?
No. He got to the finals twice with the Flyers but they always ran into the Oilers. The 1987 final series is one of the best ever. If you ask me he really should be in the Hall. 3 First All-Star teams in the 80's and 3 times a Norris Runner-up should get you in.

But I think that he won the AVCO-Trohpy(WHA) alongside his father , correct me if I'm wrong.

Edit : I looked it up ,he won the AVCO-Trophy twice.

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12-04-2007, 02:56 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Alex Mogilny - Forget debating Bure, why not Mogilny? Peak wise he was as good as Bure or pretty close. He battled with bouts of inconsistency but when he was good he was fabulous. 2nd team all-stars in '93 and '96. He had 100 points seasons twice. He won a Cup with New jersey but surprisingly wasnt as effective as he should have been. In 2001 he had 43 goals and coincidentally it was his contract year and he excelled in the playofs that year to helping NJ back to the Cup final. He lacks overall playoff numbers and that hurts him.

Sergei Zubov - So far only has one 2nd team all-star to his credit ('06) but will that be good enough? Consider this: He has been a two time Cup winner and a good playoff performer. He led the Rangers in points as a defenseman the year they won the Cup. Offensively he's put up some very good numbers. He hasnt really been dogged by inconsistent seasons either. But was he ever great at any time in his career? I dont know

Zdeno Chara - A first team all-star and a second team all-star so far in his career. Chara has been an imposing prescence all of his career. I think he hurt his career badly when he left Ottawa. But so far despite his good seasons I have yet to see some good playoff calibre hockey from him. So far that will hurt him. The only thing is that at the end of his career he'll be remembered as the biggest player of all time and even if he has a below calibre career that may push him over the top. So far its 50/50

Markus Naslund - He's had one of the weirdest careers ever. So good at one time and then fell off theface of the earth after that. After the lockout he's been okay and he's only had 3-4 seasons of elite Hockey. But in those years he was a first team all-star three times. He won the Pearson in '03, he was a top 3 scorer in three years in a row. Yet he has no Cups, lacks playoff succes and even when Sweden won the Gold in '06 he wasnt on the team. That and he's well below a point per game in his career. He may have been hurt the most by Bertuzzi's "thing". You want to see him in there but you just feel you cant justify him getting in.
Zubov is extremely close.

No to the others. Especially Naslund and Chara, who aren't even close.

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Old
12-04-2007, 05:10 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Cup 2008 Sens Rule View Post
Is a consistently great goalie... if only in the regular season not more important or at least as important as a forward. If Federko makes it shouldn't Mike Liut?
I'd like to object to Federko being labelled as not great in the post season, he led the playoff in scoring in 1986 without making the finals. He is the picture perfect example of a clutch scorer on a poor team.

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Old
12-04-2007, 10:17 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
I'd like to object to Federko being labelled as not great in the post season, he led the playoff in scoring in 1986 without making the finals. He is the picture perfect example of a clutch scorer on a poor team.
I made my comment about the regular season reflecting on goalies like Joesph of Liut. I didn't mean to infer Federko was not a good postseason player.

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Old
12-04-2007, 10:57 AM
  #84
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My list of potentials.

Selanne - dedication, best rookie season in history, 76 goals in one season is remarkable for anyone, but a rookie!?
Lindros - simply the most dominant physical force the NHL ever seen.
Sundin - no rings, but leafs records, first european captain of the leafs, he's got to be in there.
Sakic - he's a lock in.
Shanahan - took over Cam Neely's mantel as THE power wing in the NHL, and is still well up there with the young guys, cups, goals, he should be in.

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Old
12-04-2007, 03:49 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
And just what exactly Darryl Sittler did more than Michel Goulet?? AFAIK, both have no Cups, but at least one of them can brag about being one of the two faces of one club (The Nords), while the other can brag about being one of the 46 faces of the Leafs.
I'd actually put Sittler as the better player to be honest. Nothing against Goulet and I would enver have a problem with his face gracing the HHOF walls but you have to remember Sittler was at least closer to being the best player in the game during his prime. I would put Sittler in the top 10 players in the game more times than Goulet. I'm not sure if Goulet ever had a season as good as Sittler's 1977-'78.

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Old
12-04-2007, 05:19 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I'd actually put Sittler as the better player to be honest. Nothing against Goulet and I would enver have a problem with his face gracing the HHOF walls but you have to remember Sittler was at least closer to being the best player in the game during his prime. I would put Sittler in the top 10 players in the game more times than Goulet. I'm not sure if Goulet ever had a season as good as Sittler's 1977-'78.
Sittler had one great year, one great game and one great playoff. Beyond that his resume is incredibly bland for a Hall of Famer.

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Old
12-06-2007, 04:06 PM
  #87
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Until the HHOF cares about international play all those nice stats you put out there are useless.
ok so with that logic how does Valeri Kharlamov (No NHL Games) & Viacheslav Fetisov 14 seasons in Russia, with only 228 points in the NHL get in if the HHOF doesn't care about International play?????

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Old
12-06-2007, 04:10 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by cupcrazyman View Post
ok so with that logic how does Valeri Kharlamov (No NHL Games) & Viacheslav Fetisov 14 seasons in Russia, with only 228 points in the NHL get in if the HHOF doesn't care about International play?????
It only took 25 years after Kharlamov's career ended to be inducted. The HHoF does not put very much weight on international achievements or there would be quite a few more Soviet/Czech stars in the Hall.

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Old
12-06-2007, 05:01 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by cupcrazyman View Post
ok so with that logic how does Valeri Kharlamov (No NHL Games) & Viacheslav Fetisov 14 seasons in Russia, with only 228 points in the NHL get in if the HHOF doesn't care about International play?????
Only 6 european trained players in the HHOF.

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Old
12-07-2007, 02:57 PM
  #90
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after the three year wait,these players should get in next.

Yzerman,Hull,Robitaille,Gilmour, Oates.

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12-07-2007, 03:02 PM
  #91
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what about these goalies ? just a thought .check out the career wins bottom of the page.link.
http://www.hhof.com/html/r&rW.shtml

Mike Vernon
John Vanb
Andy Moog
Tom Barrasso
Rogie Vachon

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12-07-2007, 03:45 PM
  #92
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state the case because I do not see it.

Sundin has the better career
Naslund has the better peak
Gladly. This has become a discussion topic on the Sens board recently, and, I always love this topic.

To start off, Alfie is not yet a hall of famer. He has an impressive list of accomplishments, but, like you said, he can't get in on his peak play alone, since he doesn't have the relevant hardware or accomplishments, nor does he have the longevity. But, his list of accomplishments get him close, as of right now.

On the longevity and career stat front, he suffers from coming into the league much later than a lot of other comparable players. He was a late bloomer, he only was drafted at 21, and debuted at 22. When he did arrive to the NHL, it was at the start of the dead puck era, and, for many of his early seasons, struggled with injuries.

However, once he got past some early career injuries, he's established himself as a perrenial offensive force in the league. Since the 2001-02 season, he is third in points in the league. Only Joe Thornton and Jaromir Jagr are ahead of him, and, if you take into account playoff points, he actually jumps ahead of Jagr in this category.

In terms of awards and recognition, he has a few things to his name. He has a Calder win. He's been nominated for the Byng. He has a second team all-star selection. While he hasn't been nominated for the Selke, he's received significant votes towards it (I think he's finished fourth before), and, has been viewed as one of the best two-way players in the game now for a number of years. He's finished top 5 in Hart voting, which is his best showing in this category. His playoff goal total from last year is tied for the highest amount since prior to 2001 (couldn't dig back farther on NHL.com, and didn't feel like continuing to dig). Unfortunately, that accomplishment is diminised because Pisani also shares that record. He tied for the league in scoring, and, was just generally seen as the best forward in the playoffs this past year.

Prior to that, people seem to selectively recall the Sens failures, but, Alfie produced pretty consistently for a long time in the post-season for the Sens, which is the reason why he survived many of the transitions that occured. I used to have the stats, but, between 1997 to 2002, Alfie contributed about 40-50% of the team's offence in the post-season. He was clearly a guy that was forced to go it alone, due to the lack of other players who could step up in the playoffs. His goals per game actually is higher in the playoffs, than the regular season (about .43 to .38). Unfortunately, he went through a dry spell for a couple of seasons in the post-season, and, those are the ones that people focus on. Even then, he was still producing somewhat, just not his usual standards.

But, add all of that up, and, it still falls short of a HHOF resume. What makes him an interesting case though, is, at the age of 35, he's playing his best hockey of his career. He's having a season where he is a serious contender for things like the Art Ross, Hart, Pearson and Selke trophies right now. He's showing no signs of slowing down, and, has a supporting cast right now, where he can continue to make a mark in the playoffs.

There exists the strong potential for Alfie to reach some serious accomplishments that will be hard to ignore. For a guy that has only come in during the dead puck era, he is only 12 points shy of a point a game pace. Who knows how many seasons he has left, but, at his pace post-lockout, it will only be a few more seasons before he hits the 1000 game plateau. I think he's almost a sure bet to end up in top 3 in scoring through the decade of the 2000's, with it still possible to end up as the highest scorer for the entire decade. I haven't crunched the numbers starting from the begining of the decade, but, based on what I can see, he likely is in the top 3 right now.

But, I think his HHOF chances rest with his ability to deliver a cup. If he does that, his case will be pretty strong. The original comparison was to Sundin and Naslund, and, his last year's playoff is already better than the best either guy has played in the playoffs.

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Old
12-07-2007, 04:18 PM
  #93
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If Alfredsson retired tomorrow he isnt in the Hall of Fame. If he retires in 3-4 years and plays at the level he's playing at we'll see. I would put him in there if he wins a Conn Smythe or a Hart but so far his peak value doesnt stack up and I'm afraid that might hold him back. He needs to be a stellar player from the age of 35 and on to make the HHOF.

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