mark messier is the best player ever

[True Blue]

Originally Posted by moosemessier

i feel that messier made players around him better than gretz did.
not only in scoring too. hockey is so much more than just scoring.

i didnt like gretz or mario why? just scoring machines to me. not tough.

There's more to the game than just toughness. To say that Messier made players around him better than Gretz did is simply not true. Gretz could turn ANYONE on the ice into a legitimate scoring threat. Messier did more for the image of a team, but could never actually make a player seem way better than he was. What I mean by that, is that playing w/ TGO, could make almost anyone a 20 goal-scorer. Playing w/ Mess is not the same. As Laches said, Graves learned from him and picked up on the way that Mess was driven and, in turn, was likewise driven.
And to counter what you are saying, hockey is just so much more than physically intimidating a player (and recognize that this is coming from me, and I think that there is a place for intimidation and other physical aspects that others eschew). Would I rather have a player on the ice w/ Gretzky's vision or Messier's intimidation? TGO wins hands down.
To say that Gretky (and even Maryo, even though I LOATHE him) is nothing more than a scoring machine is a great diservice to the greats of the game. Pavel Bure was nothing more than a scoring machine. Gretzky (and Maryo) was much more than that.

"mess on a good power play team? i bet he could have scored those goals. i dont see why not."

Because Messier scoring 8 goals in 13 games is just highly unlikely. You have to understand, MM, that Mess going to another team would have resulted in less PP time for him not more. He would not have been option 1 or 1a. He would not have seen a second of PP time w/ the first unit on a different team. It's arguable wether or not he would have been on with the second unit.

In summary, I think that this thread, while a great debate topic, is making people find faults with the greatest players of all time. It's like having a debate on who's better, Babe Ruth or Tie Cobb? The Cobb fans will no doubt point that Ruth batted one spot ahead of Lou Gehrig and the debates will go on and on. The bottom line is that both Gretzky, Messier, Orr, Howe, and Mary were the greatest of the greats. When you stop to consider the names that are being excluded from that holy fivesome, you realize just what it is that they accomplished. What his thread is forcing people to do is to take the side of one of the other by poking holes in certain players games. I think that we can all agree that for all the nitpicking that we are doing with TGO's or Messier's or Orr's or Howe's game, those players were so great that the faults that we are finding are greatly magnified to prove a point. The bottom line is that all the faults that we are finding are in reality quite miniscule and we are just blowing them all up to illustrate points (and I mean ALL of us).

[Laches]

Originally Posted by Fitzlax99

For every fan that sees Messier as a god, there is another one that looks to bash him at every turn, and does his or her's best to diminish the things that he has accomplished.

That traitor never should have taken the money and left us in '97.
That old man is playing too many minutes, why wont he just retire.
He doesnt want to win, he is just here because Sather will pay him more than anyone.

Its tired old nonsense which leads to statements like [BOLD] It's difficult to point to something tangible that Messier did to make the players around him better. [/BOLD]


As for Richter, I wasnt giving my opinion on the subject, simply stating something to consider. And goalies can learn from forwards the same way they can learn from head coaches. Not everything a goalie picks up in his lifetime has to do with bettering positioning or ways to help get that glove up quicker.

---That statement wasn't intended as Messier-bashing, I was merely pointing out that the ways that Messier made his teammates better that are being suggested here are not as readily obvious as those in which Gretzky did, because they involve somewhat nebulous concepts like "mental toughness". You can point to plays Gretzky made where he set guys up for easy goals and safely say that there is nobody else, before or since, who could have made that pass. However, pointing to a great performance by Richter and saying that had it not been for Messier's influence on his mental toughness, he never would have stopped all of those shots, is a much harded case to prove. That's all I'm saying.

[Sather Hater]

Originally Posted by moosemessier

enough said.

Was this an April Fools Joke??

Messier had an fantastic career, but you cannot put him in the same class as Gretzky. Mark may have won more cups, but it's a team game, so it's not a fair comparision. No one person can win a stanley cup by himself, the entire team has to contribute, from the goaltender all the way to the guys on the fourth line.

[Derk]

If you asked me which one I would pick for my team TODAY, I would probably say Messier. In his prime, he is much more suited to the style of hockey of today - fast, big, tough. I hate to say it, but TGO probably wouldn't be nearly as dominant, and probably not as durable.

That said, all-time, I go with Gretz, having watched those Oiler teams of the 80s. The things he did were just awe inspiring.

[moosemessier]

not a joke - he in my eyes is and always will be better than gretz.

fantastic career, but you cannot put him in the same class as Gretzky. Mark may have won more cups, but it's a team game, so it's not a fair comparision. No one person can win a stanley cup by himself, the entire team has to contribute, from the goaltender all the way to the guys on the fourth line.

Originally Posted by Derk

If you asked me which one I would pick for my team TODAY, I would probably say Messier. In his prime, he is much more suited to the style of hockey of today - fast, big, tough. I hate to say it, but TGO probably wouldn't be nearly as dominant, and probably not as durable.

That said, all-time, I go with Gretz, having watched those Oiler teams of the 80s. The things he did were just awe inspiring.