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Old
12-18-2007, 01:06 PM
  #76
BenedictGomez
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
Madden, as great as he on D, I did/do not expect him to score more then 40. He is 35pts per season player who is having a career year. Madden line will slow down and so will Pondofolo (who by the way also having a career year in scoring).
Once injuries occur and I do mean ANY injury to any top 9 players NJD will have troubles.
I agree with some of what you said, but on Madden keep in mind that until this year he has had primarily defensive assignments. He still does really, but under Sutter he is free to open it up, unlike in the past. Before the Devils molded him into the PK and defensive forward he had been a 1st line scorer. In his last AHL season he had 98 points, and he is still one of the fastest skaters in the NHL.

On Pandolpho, he IS injured and has missed the last 10 games now.

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
you were whining about the officiating in a game that has nothing to do with this thread on the Flyers board..
It did have to do with the post that I was directly replying to (which wasnt one of your posts)

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12-18-2007, 01:09 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
A team with even worse scoring problems than the Devils thus far... pretty much proving my point. You can get away with murder as a goalie if your offense can pick you up, neither team has done so... nor would I expect them to in the Devs case (Rangers are very surprising, IMO).

To an extent what I'm saying is an obvious point, yes. However, writing off the struggles of October to simply meshing is overlooking the more obvious reason for the struggles... Brodeur wasn't playing all that great... hurt that White and Langenbrunner weren't around either. Might the Devs weather another Brodeur slump in the future better? maybe. If you go back, though, and breakdown the Devs seasons their win streaks and everything else all directly correlate to Brodeur really getting his game together... he's become a somewhat streaky goalie, albeit we're talking about long stretches.

The Devils have ridden one of those stretches to the top of the standings in the Atlantic... maybe Brodeur settles into a consistent .920+ for the rest of the year, but he's been doing these months of .930 and months of .895 in the past few seasons... always averages out to a good season and when he's on when the playoffs strike, the Devs are pretty much unbeatable. However, when he's off when the playoffs strike... away they go.
Jester, the reasons I listed before are the main reasons for our struggle, sure it hurt that we were missing Langenbrunner and White but if they were healthy there is no doubt in my mind we would have still struggled from the outset.

And winning for the Devils has always centered around Brodeur, I mean you say I made your piont, but your point is quite an obvious one that everyone pretty much knows. It's like me looking outside and declaring it's daytime, I mean duh....

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12-18-2007, 01:12 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by BenedictGomez View Post
I agree with some of what you said, but on Madden keep in mind that until this year he has had primarily defensive assignments. He still does really, but under Sutter he is free to open it up, unlike in the past. Before the Devils molded him into the PK and defensive forward he had been a 1st line scorer. In his last AHL season he had 98 points, and he is still one of the fastest skaters in the NHL.

On Pandolpho, he IS injured and has missed the last 10 games now.
shooting pct on both is out of line with past performance... both are good players, but their offensive production is above their talents to this point (it happens).

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It did have to do with the post that I was directly replying to (which wasnt one of your posts)
i realize who and what you were responding to... however, going down that path is a classic thread hijack and the sentiments of that post have nothing to do with a thread which is essentially the OPs issue with my denunciations of the job Stevens is doing against the talent on the Flyers roster... therefore, it has nothing to do with the game the other day, and complaints about officiating going against the Devs don't really belong in this thread - nor do they really have a place in this board outside of maybe the GDT for that game, even then no one cares.

subject and place are important as ever... and that's all there is to say about it.

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12-18-2007, 01:16 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Ronnie Bass View Post
Jester, the reasons I listed before are the main reasons for our struggle, sure it hurt that we were missing Langenbrunner and White but if they were healthy there is no doubt in my mind we would have still struggled from the outset.

And winning for the Devils has always centered around Brodeur, I mean you say I made your piont, but your point is quite an obvious one that everyone pretty much knows. It's like me looking outside and declaring it's daytime, I mean duh....
these two paragraphs contradict one another... the first one argues against my thesis... the second supports it.

I'm calling in Occam's Razor... Brodeur is the simplest and most obvious explanation. You really think the Devs have those struggles in October if he puts up a .929? You can say he is traditionally a slow starter, but it's pretty difficult for me to accept meshing and learning under a new coach, or the road (not that big a deal in modern athletics as travel is so easy now - especially for Atlantic teams), or whatever... but when the performance of Brodeur as an individual is night and day... and the correlating results are night and day... it's pretty tough to ride out any other thesis with any strength.

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12-18-2007, 01:18 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Ronnie Bass View Post
I remember you in the summer selling us short like you are trying to do now. After being proven wrong you think you would learn your lesson about doubting the New Jersey Devils.
Yes I did and I was wrong.

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Originally Posted by Ronnie Bass View Post
A few things:

1) How exactly is a Zubrus a clown? He has been a VERY effective player for us.
Through out his career he was inconsistent, lazy player. Borderline 3 line player mainly because of his size. He has nothing else going for him. 3M per year and 6 goals?
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2) Your say Madden and Pando will cool off, again, you know this how?
I do not know. My prediction based on their career and style of play, D first.
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3) If the Devils Dmen is playing over their head it's because of Larry Robinson, not Sutter.
Devils coaching stuff is far better, no one is arguing. Why, you do not agree that they are playing above their heads?
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4) We are already without one of our top players in Pando and we haven't exactly struggle, so there goes that theory down in flames.
Langenbrunner was out and Devils were in last place. There is my example.
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I'm mean seriously, we have won the Atlantic division two years running and have shot to the top in a matter of weeks, but yet here we are again with a familiar theme.
History has nothing to do with it. In this particular case Flyers have a better talent and it comes down to lack of coaching staff and experience. Stevens and Murray against Sutter and Robinson? Nothing to say there

If only Snider did not fire Hitch.

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12-18-2007, 01:41 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
Through out his career he was inconsistent, lazy player. Borderline 3 line player mainly because of his size. He has nothing else going for him. 3M per year and 6 goals?
Yeah, and so was Briere, does that mean we get to still label him as like you want to label Zubrus?

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I do not know. My prediction based on their career and style of play, D first.
Different systems this year, before this year they were expected to always concentrate on defense and don't give any thought to the offense. But this year Sutter wants everyone to get involved one way or another, that's why your seeing them off to a great start. Don't sell these guys short, they are far from being like Parise, but they do have the talent to score, it's just no one ever really put them in a position to do that until this year.

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Devils coaching stuff is far better, no one is arguing. Why, you do not agree that they are playing above their heads?
They have been playing great, but even if they are playing over their heads I see no reason it will stop, the biggest key to their success is playing within themsleves and unity with our forwards.

Devils D is not just our defensmen, it's everyone.

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Langenbrunner was out and Devils were in last place. There is my example.
And like I said to Jester, it wouldn't matter if he was healthy this team still would have struggled. I mean we do it every year.

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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
History has nothing to do with it. In this particular case Flyers have a better talent and it comes down to lack of coaching staff and experience. Stevens and Murray against Sutter and Robinson? Nothing to say there
I'm not sure that is the case, I mean whatever edge you might think you have with forwards or whatever, you lose BIGTIME when it comes to the goaltending position, and enough to perhaps tilt the talent factor our way.

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If only Snider did not fire Hitch.
Meh, I was never a big fan of his.

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Old
12-18-2007, 01:43 PM
  #82
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Zubrus is overpaid for what he brings to the table (i wonder if he sends a portion of his check to Ovechkin?), but i don't understand the hate for him... he's turned himself into a quality defensive player who can chip in offensively.

Right now he's doing exactly what should have been expected of him offensively.

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12-18-2007, 01:46 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
these two paragraphs contradict one another... the first one argues against my thesis... the second supports it.

I'm calling in Occam's Razor... Brodeur is the simplest and most obvious explanation. You really think the Devs have those struggles in October if he puts up a .929? You can say he is traditionally a slow starter, but it's pretty difficult for me to accept meshing and learning under a new coach, or the road (not that big a deal in modern athletics as travel is so easy now - especially for Atlantic teams), or whatever... but when the performance of Brodeur as an individual is night and day... and the correlating results are night and day... it's pretty tough to ride out any other thesis with any strength.
There is no way Brodeur could have gotten a .929% in October with the way the team was playing in front of him, problem is your assuming he was the main reason for our struggles, now he was a reason for it, but there are bigger factors in this than that, mostly the team playing like crap in front of him.

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12-18-2007, 01:52 PM
  #84
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There is no way Brodeur could have gotten a .929% in October with the way the team was playing in front of him, problem is your assuming he was the main reason for our struggles, now he was a reason for it, but there are bigger factors in this than that, mostly the team playing like crap in front of him.
same argument used to defend Nitty around these parts last season... SVPCT is a statistic that a goalie largely has individual control over... is it perfect? of course not. however, .885 to .929 is, of course, a MASSIVE difference... especially in the ultra-competitive world of the NHL, in a league that has begun to shift back to the first goal is determining way of life this season...

moreover, almost everyone is disorganized to start the season... it's one of the reasons that you always have these silly starts both good and bad... it's why the Flyers could sprint out to 6-1 before people figured out how to slow them down.

none of this is to say that Brodeur is going to have a crap year... fully expect him to be a .920 goalie and the Devs are right where I'd expect them to be at this point... however, that's qualified by the fact that the rest of the division has either come out flat (Rangers/Pens), came out hot and the inability to make adjustments has cost them (Flyers), then you have the Isles... who are lacking in talent some, but are a very well coached club in their own right. the Devs have shot to the top of the standings because Brodeur got hot and they got a couple key bodies back... perhaps paired with Sutter getting everyone a bit more on the path (true of every team at this point of the year).

the basis of this thread, as stated above, is the OP doesn't agree with my assessment that Stevens is costing the Flyers massively right now with his inability to get this team playing a tight cohesive game... his belief is they don't have the talent to compete against these other clubs, which I think is outright crap. this Flyers team should have been able to drop the hammer in November based on the performances they've been getting from guys like Richards, Briere, etc... but instead they've been a floundering .500 team that can't beat teams that are willing to stay in front of them and not getting into a track meet with them.

we're a slightly less talented version of the Sabres last year... except they were capable of creating puck possession, which meant they could hang with system teams because they didn't spend so much time chasing the puck. Flyers have shown signs of improving in specific instances, but it's a long way from being a trend.


Last edited by Jester: 12-18-2007 at 02:00 PM.
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Old
12-18-2007, 02:49 PM
  #85
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I disagree. Kevin Weekes wins that game too. I dont think Philly had much sustained offense until about 10 minutes left in the game. The penalty shot? It was one of the lamest efforts you'll ever see on a PS. Briere himself admitted he probably was thinking too much and kinda changed his mind. I could just as easily say that without the refs handing the Flyers gifts that game like Halloween candy it probably should have been a 4 goal Devils win. The 4 minute penalty kill on the Elias Major for high sticking when it was a Flyers stick that whacked another flyer in the face? The Gionta goal that was disallowed on a phantom hooking call? etc.....
thats because marty brodeur was in net, he has that effect on shooters

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Old
12-19-2007, 08:13 AM
  #86
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Yeah, and so was Briere, does that mean we get to still label him as like you want to label Zubrus?
Briere.. Lazy no, diver yes, not very good on D, yes.
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Originally Posted by Ronnie Bass View Post
Different systems this year, before this year they were expected to always concentrate on defense and don't give any thought to the offense. But this year Sutter wants everyone to get involved one way or another, that's why your seeing them off to a great start. Don't sell these guys short, they are far from being like Parise, but they do have the talent to score, it's just no one ever really put them in a position to do that until this year.
I am not selling anyone short.. Sutter is a great coach and his record speaks for him self.. No need to discuss this.
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They have been playing great, but even if they are playing over their heads I see no reason it will stop, the biggest key to their success is playing within themsleves and unity with our forwards.
We will see...
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Devils D is not just our defensmen, it's everyone.
Wrong.. It's one man Brodeur. You know it and I know it. If Brodeur has an average game and I do mean average. Devils D-nce looks like crap.
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Meh, I was never a big fan of his.
Thats because he was the only coach who knew how to play Devils and win. Stevens on the other hand knows *****. He is a below average coach.

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12-19-2007, 08:30 AM
  #87
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Stevens is doing a miserable job with this team... and this team doesn't have realistic Cup chances the way they're playing today... any team that plays a tight game is going to cause them massive problems.
But Jester, who ever said anything about a Cup chance??? Jeez oh Pete - just before the year when a poll was taken here, most people said 6-8 seed. Remember? Those who hoped for more were just too optimistic.

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The frustrating thing is, if everyone was on the same page and looked more like a team, i think we could have realistic cup chances. We have the players
Come on, man!!!

Timonen Hatcher Smith Coburn Jones Kukkonen Picard Fitzpatrick Vandermeer

That is not a blue line corps that by any stretch has realistic cup chances.

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12-19-2007, 08:37 AM
  #88
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Come on, man!!!

Timonen Hatcher Smith Coburn Jones Kukkonen Picard Fitzpatrick Vandermeer

That is not a blue line corps that by any stretch has realistic cup chances.
I disagree..

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12-19-2007, 09:53 AM
  #89
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But Jester, who ever said anything about a Cup chance??? Jeez oh Pete - just before the year when a poll was taken here, most people said 6-8 seed. Remember? Those who hoped for more were just too optimistic.
Predictions aren't made in a vacuum... this is the complete failure of your logic here. Those predictions weren't made in a world where anyone was assuming Mike Richards was going to turn into a PPG forward... Martin Biron wasn't going to be a top 10 goalie... etc. etc.

The context has changed, this team is one of the best offensive clubs in hockey... but cannot keep shots down against to save its own life. Preseason predictions are made without knowledge... if you've been watching this team and not reevaluated what you expect from players like Richards night in and night out... hell, even Randy Jones...

If players exceed expectations, then teams SHOULD exceed expectations. How do you not see this.

Moreover, I'm not saying anything about this team winning a Cup with a new coach... I just want this team to look like they know what they're doing as a collective group. You know, "team building," the stuff that coaches do... this team far too often looks confused and ill-prepared...

Quote:
Come on, man!!!

Timonen Hatcher Smith Coburn Jones Kukkonen Picard Fitzpatrick Vandermeer

That is not a blue line corps that by any stretch has realistic cup chances.
JXC, you need to go look around at Eastern Conference defense corps. We don't have the best... but it's certainly in the upper bracket... and our forwards are more talented than very few other teams in the east (the fact that we're 4th in scoring would be a hint to that fact).

it is a TEAM, after all.

What we have is a very solid group of defenseman with a versatile mix of abilities. Are they young? absolutely... but Kukkonen and Jones aren't THAT young. Moreover... our problems aren't the inconsistency that would warrant blaiming problems on youth... our problems are consistent... night-in and night-out... the things that coaches should lean on.

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12-19-2007, 05:49 PM
  #90
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Predictions aren't made in a vacuum... this is the complete failure of your logic here. Those predictions weren't made in a world where anyone was assuming Mike Richards was going to turn into a PPG forward... Martin Biron wasn't going to be a top 10 goalie... etc. etc.

The context has changed, this team is one of the best offensive clubs in hockey... but cannot keep shots down against to save its own life. Preseason predictions are made without knowledge... if you've been watching this team and not reevaluated what you expect from players like Richards night in and night out... hell, even Randy Jones...

If players exceed expectations, then teams SHOULD exceed expectations. How do you not see this.

Moreover, I'm not saying anything about this team winning a Cup with a new coach... I just want this team to look like they know what they're doing as a collective group. You know, "team building," the stuff that coaches do... this team far too often looks confused and ill-prepared...



JXC, you need to go look around at Eastern Conference defense corps. We don't have the best... but it's certainly in the upper bracket... and our forwards are more talented than very few other teams in the east (the fact that we're 4th in scoring would be a hint to that fact).

it is a TEAM, after all.

What we have is a very solid group of defenseman with a versatile mix of abilities. Are they young? absolutely... but Kukkonen and Jones aren't THAT young. Moreover... our problems aren't the inconsistency that would warrant blaiming problems on youth... our problems are consistent... night-in and night-out... the things that coaches should lean on.
This is flawed logic. The team goes as far as the weakest link, not the strongest. Players are exceeding expectations, but they aren't defensemen. Jones has been less than advertised, Smith has turned the puck over a ton, and Hatcher isn't around all the time. The defense has been below expectation, and that is our limiting factor.

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12-19-2007, 05:54 PM
  #91
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This is flawed logic. The team goes as far as the weakest link, not the strongest. Players are exceeding expectations, but they aren't defensemen. Jones has been less than advertised, Smith has turned the puck over a ton, and Hatcher isn't around all the time. The defense has been below expectation, and that is our limiting factor.
Jones was nothing short of a revelation at the outset of the season... he's come back to earth in bigger minutes against better players. Timonen has been fine... Coburn has had stretches of questionable play, and then pairs that with very strong play. Smith is just as advertised. Hatcher is Hatcher... and Kukkonen's play has been strong in my opinion.

The defense has largely done a good job of clearing lanes and they block a ton of shots, especially with Kukkonen in the lineup.

it's been a versatile group that has put more points up on the board than expected... as a team this group doesn't control the puck enough, and that isn't just the defenses fault. the forwards rarely if ever establish possession in the offensive zone (not the defense's fault), and the forwards allow the gap to grow too much at times and don't help out enough getting the puck out of the zone.

they aren't the best in the league, but they don't get nearly enough help from the forwards when it comes to moving the puck from the defensive zone to the neutral zone... and the forwards are too much of a quick strike/rush offense, which leads to relatively constant pressure on the defense.

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12-19-2007, 06:30 PM
  #92
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The context has changed, this team is one of the best offensive clubs in hockey...

JXC, you need to go look around at Eastern Conference ... and our forwards are more talented than very few other teams in the east (the fact that we're 4th in scoring would be a hint to that fact).
Actually, we're tied for 5th in the east, 9th overall, with Buffalo, in GF at 99.

Buffalo has a game in hand tonight vs. the Isles so let's call it 6th and 10th.

In the top 3rd in scoring, but 9th in the East in GA/20th overall. Despite having a great goalie. Mmm, wonder if the problems are on D?

In the standings, we're 15th overall (tie with TML and EO) with a game or two in hand on the teams directly above us.

To me, that's better for this time of year that most of us expected at the start, and the context has not greatly changed. Any increase in production by Richards or improvement by Jones has to be tempered with Gagne's injury, Hartnell's prolonged slump, Hatcher's knee, etc.

The team plays well at times and at other times not. If the problems were systemic, they'd happen all the time - which is what systemic problems are.

The quotes from the stable of captains in today's papers are very illuminating. They all seem to think it's up to the players to look in the mirror and come to the rink ready do the little things right, and play for 60 full minutes. Just the kind of problems you'd expect from a team with lots of newcomers and kids. And just the kind of things that are correctable.

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12-19-2007, 06:41 PM
  #93
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The team plays well at times and at other times not. If the problems were systemic, they'd happen all the time - which is what systemic problems are.
if the problems weren't systemic... it wouldn't be so predictable who we'd look alright against and who we don't look alright against. the reason we've looked strong in the 7 games against Pitt/Carolina this year is because both those teams play a more wide open game that allows our pond hockey style to flourish... whereas tighter teams cause us problems because we have no structured game to fall back on against them. the problems do happen all the time... we're merely talented enough that teams can't run with us safely and our goalie and offense have bailed us out of a few other games.

as of now, we're 5th at 3.09 GFG, 18th at 2.84 GAG... 23rd in SOGF and 30th in SOGA...

what would you do as a coach looking at those numbers? i'd slow my team down and try to cut down the number of shots my group was taking... i'd tell my forwards to slow down and start developing more sustained pressure, rather than relying on scoring off the rush so much, which leads to possession coming back the other way.

the moment cliches muttered to sports reporters start to actually tell you what is going on with a club... well, pigs will fly.

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