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[GDT 32:] 12/18/07 Phoenix Coyotes @ Philadelphia Flyers 7:00 PM-ET (TV: CSN)

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Old
12-19-2007, 12:47 PM
  #501
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Originally Posted by Storm in a Teacup View Post
Maybe we'll get Doughty afterall.
I really think Doughty is exactly what this roster needs, but I've watched a lot of Schenn; to tell you the truth, I love what I've seen. He's like a pissed off Marc Staal.

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12-19-2007, 01:43 PM
  #502
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
The Flyers never dominated this game at any time.


Alex Picard spontaneously combusting on the 2nd goal is one reason I said what I did about him (somewhere else on this board), but he seems to be a dominant AHL player, he should at least know how to play a 2 on 1.

The other alarming thing (or annoying thing) is that Randy Jones had a chance to bail out Picard and he failed also. Picard did exactly what Jones did in New Jersey. We complained that there is not enough offense from defensemen, however watching Picard and Jones the last two games, maybe we should be grateful because those two guys suck in transition, especially Jones, he blew a play twice in 2 games on the same play.
I think Jones or whoever was on the other point should take most of the blame. At least Picard busted his but and Tried to get back. Anyone else on the team could of Raced Sjostrom back and helped Picard out.

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12-19-2007, 03:07 PM
  #503
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
They both blew the play. The defensemen's job is to play the pass and neither did that.
That was never Picard's job because when Picard was in the play it was a 1 on 1. Picard got deked out by a great move, then Doan waited for a trailer. At that point, Jones should've seen the trailer and stopped the 2 on 1. Instead, he went to Doan and Sjostrom was wide open.

It's a classic case of Jones not using his head. If Jones even has the common sense to look towards the blue line that goal never happens.

I'm not saying Picard played it perfectly, but getting deked out by a great move from a very good player is understandable for a rookie defenseman. If Picard made Jones' mistake, I'd be pissed at him because it should be second nature for any defenseman to see if there is a trailer in that situation. For a guy with 130 NHL games under his belt, it's inexcusable.

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12-19-2007, 03:11 PM
  #504
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Originally Posted by Winston Wolf View Post
That was never Picard's job because when Picard was in the play it was a 1 on 1. Picard got deked out by a great move, then Doan waited for a trailer. At that point, Jones should've seen the trailer and stopped the 2 on 1. Instead, he went to Doan and Sjostrom was wide open.

It's a classic case of Jones not using his head. If Jones even has the common sense to look towards the blue line that goal never happens.
i'm baffled by the belief that Picard had some "pass" to play... if he "plays the pass" then Doan can go straight in on Biron unmolested. the only thing he can be criticized on with that play is that his motion carried him past Doan and out of the play... but that's a pretty harsh criticism as it ignores the very good play that Doan made to put Picard in that position.

it wasn't a "2 on 1" until Doan stopped... it was a 1 on 1 going to the net and Picard was on a bee-line to intercept Doan before he could cut in front of Biron... when he stopped THEN the pass came into play as the trailer, who Jones didn't pick up, was an option for Doan to make a pass to.

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12-19-2007, 03:51 PM
  #505
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
i'm baffled by the belief that Picard had some "pass" to play... if he "plays the pass" then Doan can go straight in on Biron unmolested. the only thing he can be criticized on with that play is that his motion carried him past Doan and out of the play... but that's a pretty harsh criticism as it ignores the very good play that Doan made to put Picard in that position.

it wasn't a "2 on 1" until Doan stopped... it was a 1 on 1 going to the net and Picard was on a bee-line to intercept Doan before he could cut in front of Biron... when he stopped THEN the pass came into play as the trailer, who Jones didn't pick up, was an option for Doan to make a pass to.
Yeah, it's pretty cut and dry. Ask any coach at any level what pisses him off more, a defender getting deked out on a 1 on 1 (by the opposing team's best player nonetheless), or a defender not picking up the trailer on a 2 on 1 and you'll get the same answer everytime.

I'm curious if the people placing blame for the goal on Picard have even analyzed what actually happened.

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12-19-2007, 04:17 PM
  #506
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It was a bad play by picard. He is young and will learn part of the process. He could have taken him out and just been penalized. I thought he was lazy getting back into the play after doan stopped. Well you wontí get no argument from me about jones. He is what he is so in essence what he didnít do doesnít surprise me. He is a borderline nhl dman. Why he is playing 20 minutes a night who knows. Maybe dan kordic passed along those pictures of Clarke in drag to him. He plays more than smith, not that smith is great but better than jones. I honestly donít know what they see in him. People can say he is not the same since the hit, well to me he is as this is the kind of play I expect from him IMO.

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12-19-2007, 04:25 PM
  #507
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Originally Posted by DuklaNation View Post
If the Flyers continue to play their top 2 lines over 20 minutes per game, you're destined for problems down the road.
When your third line center can't get it on net when he's standing two feet in front of, it's hard not to play your top two lines to excess. That, and constantly trailing of late, have meant added minutes for Danny and Richie.

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The Yotes during the preseason were very good (outshooting opponents) but losing. During the regular season, they've played some games where they completely dominated the other team (Nashville + Dallas, I think)... of course they smoked the Devils + Rangers + Flyers recently.

Their problem is consistency... and goaltending (now fixed). The Flyers just underestimated them and got blown out.
Smoked? 3-2 is getting "smoked?" Wow-ee that's a new one for me.

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12-19-2007, 04:44 PM
  #508
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Picard was trying to catch Shane Doan and attempting to get between him and the net... that wasn't some classic 2 on 1. In that spot, you need to get to the man... If Doan doesn't pull a nice stop and spin move on Picard, Picard goes straight through him... he puts on the breaks, but is going to slide by due to the laws of physics and the fact that ice is, in fact, slippery.

If he takes a path that takes him to where Doan ended up, then Doan could have beaten him to the inside and cut in front of the net... credit Doan with a savvy play... they do happen at times.

Jones not manning up on the trailer... as that was a TRAILER, not a 2 on 1, is the real problem there.
At some point, you have to play the angles and percentages. He should have given Doan the shot and stayed to the middle. When both guys are below the circles, it's a mini 2 on 1 and one of 2 defensemen need to block the pass.

These are plays we're so critical of Niittymaki of all the time.

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12-19-2007, 05:09 PM
  #509
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
At some point, you have to play the angles and percentages. He should have given Doan the shot and stayed to the middle. When both guys are below the circles, it's a mini 2 on 1 and one of 2 defensemen need to block the pass.

These are plays we're so critical of Niittymaki of all the time.
if he stays in the middle he's going to be landing in Biron's lap... his only play was to try and get to Doan, who he denied the front of the net to and it resulted in Doan making a smart play and it resulted in a goal...

not only that, read what you just wrote... it's a "mini 2 on 1" with 2 defenseman present? no, it was a 2 on 2 and Jones didn't pick up his man and deny him the pass.

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12-19-2007, 05:21 PM
  #510
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So... how about everyone shut up about the Picard/Jones debacle. The game is over. Some people blame Picard, some blame Jones, others blame both. Whatever... the endless circular debate is getting tiresome. Let's move on.

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12-19-2007, 05:26 PM
  #511
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
At some point, you have to play the angles and percentages. He should have given Doan the shot and stayed to the middle. When both guys are below the circles, it's a mini 2 on 1 and one of 2 defensemen need to block the pass.

These are plays we're so critical of Niittymaki of all the time.
Why in the world would you give the forward the shot on a 1 on 1?

Picard had one job there: cut down Doan's angle to limit his chance to score. Picard did just that, as Doan was never in any position to score, which is exactly why he cut back to the boards to pass. It was his partner's responsibility to anticipate the pass and cover any trailers.

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12-19-2007, 08:59 PM
  #512
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not only that, read what you just wrote... it's a "mini 2 on 1" with 2 defenseman present? no, it was a 2 on 2 and Jones didn't pick up his man and deny him the pass.
Picard was out of the play at that point.

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12-19-2007, 09:59 PM
  #513
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Originally Posted by socraticirony View Post
So... how about everyone shut up about the Picard/Jones debacle. The game is over. Some people blame Picard, some blame Jones, others blame both. Whatever... the endless circular debate is getting tiresome. Let's move on.
Yeah, really...it seems every goal against there's some player that's scapegoated and vilified on here. A few losses and people are firing coaches, getting rid of young d men etc. Ridiculous. We knew this year was going to be challenging...give em a break!

BTW on that Picard play where it came to him at the point and got through him (leading to the goal), the puck took an unfortunate bounce about 8 inches off the ice right before it got to him. I don't know if the ice was really bad there or what but I'm pretty sure he would have kept it in if the puck remained down along the ice.
Picard is 22..he's going to learn from these experiences and be better for them. Such is life when you have a young team trying to prove themselves. I'm not saying don't criticize when legit mistakes are made, but some moderation is called for imho.

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12-19-2007, 10:13 PM
  #514
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Originally Posted by exlund View Post
Yeah, really...it seems every goal against there's some player that's scapegoated and vilified on here. A few losses and people are firing coaches, getting rid of young d men etc. Ridiculous. We knew this year was going to be challenging...give em a break!

BTW on that Picard play where it came to him at the point and got through him (leading to the goal), the puck took an unfortunate bounce about 8 inches off the ice right before it got to him. I don't know if the ice was really bad there or what but I'm pretty sure he would have kept it in if the puck remained down along the ice.
Picard is 22..he's going to learn from these experiences and be better for them. Such is life when you have a young team trying to prove themselves. I'm not saying don't criticize when legit mistakes are made, but some moderation is called for imho.
I'm pretty sure that was Jones at the point.

And my god, can we stop this argument please, it's gotten petty and dumb and it's obvious that the 2 sides aren't going to agree, let's move on, 1 mistake isn't the reason our team looks like they're tanking.

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12-19-2007, 11:43 PM
  #515
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Picard was out of the play at that point.
fine.

Picard was the reason it was a 2 on 1 and not a free pass to the goalie.

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12-20-2007, 12:19 AM
  #516
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I'm pretty sure that was Jones at the point.

And my god, can we stop this argument please, it's gotten petty and dumb and it's obvious that the 2 sides aren't going to agree, let's move on, 1 mistake isn't the reason our team looks like they're tanking.
You're right, it's Jones, I'm sorry...but it still holds true, I don't totally blame him for letting it go through him, the way the puck came in there it looked like he could have easily stopped it with his stickblade until a weird bounce just before it reached him You could say he could have sealed against the boards and stopped it from getting through but it seemed like that wasn't necessary until the last second. I thought Picard did a good job and showing good closing speed in getting back to get in Doan's way, preventing a clear shot and forcing him to make a slick move to find space to dish...yeah, he overskates but Doan's quick stop was a top notch play and tough to anticipate for any player let alone a 22 yr old D man.. Jones sees Doan peel out and looks up ice at the trailer and tried to play the pass...he comes very close to getting a piece of Doan's pass but it goes between his skate and the heel of his stick. I noticed Umberger was following that trailer into the zone...but it looked to me like he was coasting instead of pumping to catch up and maybe make a play on him to stop the goal... Anyway..***** happens...I don't think we played as bad a game as people think. the Yotes are more talented than people think, esp with a legit goalie now.

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12-20-2007, 09:13 AM
  #517
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Originally Posted by exlund View Post
Jones sees Doan peel out and looks up ice at the trailer and tried to play the pass...he comes very close to getting a piece of Doan's pass but it goes between his skate and the heel of his stick.
Jones' job is to see the trailer and stop the pass. Period.

I understand your objections, as Jones is clearly held to a higher standard than any other defenseman on the team, but that's his play to make.

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12-20-2007, 09:15 AM
  #518
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Unforunately Jones is the whipping boy and I guess the plantation owners believed i was trying to find them a new one, which I was not.
WELL SAID

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12-20-2007, 03:07 PM
  #519
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WELL SAID
Why thank you.

It's funny how he went from having "no business being on the ice" to savvy vet that was put out with a rook to make up for his mistakes while said partner gets a pass for being young and playing on slippery ice when the same excuse was bashed when used to explain Jones' inability to stop going into Bergeron.

Ah well, what ever helps the arguers most recent argument.

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12-20-2007, 11:58 PM
  #520
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Jones' job is to see the trailer and stop the pass. Period.

I understand your objections, as Jones is clearly held to a higher standard than any other defenseman on the team, but that's his play to make.
Jones had to consider that Doan would've curled back into the slot and taken a backhander. IF he had just skated over in Sjostrom's direction and let Shane walk in, he would have been crucified for that.

Just keep in mind that there are people out there who actually understand something about the game and who appreciate how well Jones has played.

And funny that everyone forgets the brutal plays Kimmo has been burned for lately. Esp. that goal vs. Montreal where he fell asleep completely.....

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