HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Most impressive improvement over previous best...

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-21-2007, 01:44 PM
  #1
Stonefly
Registered User
 
Stonefly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,032
vCash: 500
Most impressive improvement over previous best...

Relative to their positions, which of these guys improvements on the previous best player is most impressive?

Howe
Hull
Orr
Esposito
Gretzky


Last edited by Stonefly: 12-21-2007 at 06:08 PM.
Stonefly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-21-2007, 05:34 PM
  #2
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 25,449
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by willus3 View Post
Relative to their positions, which of these guys improvements on the previous best is most impressive?

Howe
Hull
Orr
Esposito
Gretzky
Not that 164 points is shabby but its hard to argue against Gretzky's jump in points from 164 to 212. Guy Lafleur had quite the jump too from '74 to '75.

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-21-2007, 05:39 PM
  #3
Stephen
Registered User
 
Stephen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 41,905
vCash: 500
Obviously Orr.

Stephen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-21-2007, 06:11 PM
  #4
Stonefly
Registered User
 
Stonefly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,032
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Not that 164 points is shabby but its hard to argue against Gretzky's jump in points from 164 to 212. Guy Lafleur had quite the jump too from '74 to '75.
I went back and edited my op. I meant previous best player. So these guys peak opposed to the best players peak before them. Asked a little awkwardly. Sorry.

Stonefly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-21-2007, 06:15 PM
  #5
The One Who Knocks
Registered User
 
The One Who Knocks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: California
Country: England
Posts: 6,201
vCash: 500
Orr. He revolutionized the offensive defenseman

The One Who Knocks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-21-2007, 06:30 PM
  #6
27roenick97
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 610
vCash: 500
i'd probably agree w/ orr. gretzky was still just an offensive forward, just way better. orr changed the way the position was played, for the better.

i'm suprised patrick roy isn't on that list, since he's pretty muched credited with creating the butterfly style.

27roenick97 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-21-2007, 07:53 PM
  #7
pappyline
Registered User
 
pappyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Mass/formerly Ont
Country: United States
Posts: 4,348
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by willus3 View Post
Relative to their positions, which of these guys improvements on the previous best player is most impressive?

Howe
Hull
Orr
Esposito
Gretzky
First of all Esposito does not belong on this list. I don't care how many points he scored or his heroics in the 72 series. He was a contempory of Howe, Orr & Hull & was never ever a better player than them. Lafleur probably belongs in Espo's spot.

I like both Howe & Hull. I see that as a draw ( I am a big Hull fan). Orr is IMO the best ever so I see Orr as being more impressive than Hull. However, the gap is not as big as most would say. Orr was great but he got to play against some pretty shabby competition. After Orr it is downhill until we get to Gretzy where there is upward trend but still not to the Orr level.

Just my unbiased opinion.

pappyline is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-21-2007, 08:15 PM
  #8
nik jr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Country: Congo-Kinshasa
Posts: 10,798
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 27roenick97 View Post
i'm suprised patrick roy isn't on that list, since he's pretty muched credited with creating the butterfly style.
i've never heard that.

glenn hall and later tony esposito created the butterfly.

nik jr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-21-2007, 09:15 PM
  #9
Stonefly
Registered User
 
Stonefly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,032
vCash: 500
Pappyline I completely agree with you about Esposito. In terms of hockey talent he isn't there with the other guys I listed. Soooo...
I should have waited until I had more time to post what I was actually trying to get at originally.
All of these guys pushed the boundaries of what was there before them offensively speaking.
Howe with his point production.
Hull with his goal scoring production.
Orr with his point production.
Esposito with his point production.
Gretzky with his point production.
Each of these guys bettered the previous best players marks by significant amounts. Maybe HO or Pnep could help with the stats on it. How much did they improve offensive marks, not over their own previous best, but over the marks of the best player before them relative to the position they played. Forward to forward, defenceman to defenceman.
Then looking at that, whose achievement is most impressive?

Stonefly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-22-2007, 07:58 PM
  #10
Bluefan75
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,353
vCash: 500
I have to think it's between Gretzky and Orr. Howe kind of supports a previous poster's argument about similar previous best, because Howe was alittle better than Richard, but his jump was not like what Orr did.

I do disagree, however that there was that much similarity to Gretzky at his position. People like to discount his totals by saying "everyone scored a lot", but even at that, Gretzky's totals were such that his gap between him and the second person would be solid second line production. 65, 72, 79, 73, 74 and 75 point margins go beyond any kind of statistical explanation. He was just so much better than these other guys.

Orr revolutionized his position, and certainly merits an argument in his favor, as his like will not be seen in a very long time if ever on defense. Gretzky was one of the first to turn back and get the following players involved after gaining the zone, rather than just keep charging forward as everyone was taught, and I don't think Edmonton i the same kind of offensive team without him, in which case I don't think the NHL gets rid of 4-on-4 for conincidental minors for 20 years. In the context of this debate, I can see Orr or Gretzky, and frankly am not sure which of the two would win.

Bluefan75 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-23-2007, 06:10 PM
  #11
Stonefly
Registered User
 
Stonefly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,032
vCash: 500
I'd go with Orr as well. He scored like the best forwards and still played outstanding defense.
What was the best offensive season by a defensemen before Orr?
If I'm not mistaken he more than doubled it.

Stonefly is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:56 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. @2017 All Rights Reserved.