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Calgary-Philadelphia Proposal

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Old
01-03-2008, 11:46 AM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Charisma View Post
It's not terrible value-wise, but if I'm Calgary I keep looking.

What is your reasoning behind this proposal?
damnit i get mad when someone says that! or when people say that he's not on the trade block, why do you think genius? this is Hfboards where a bunch of fans chat and learn, if he says it it's to now what fair value is, it's not like the proposal is actually going to happen anytime soon.

As for the proposal itself, very nice for what is probably your 1st try, i think the Flyers give alot but for Phaneuf it's worth it

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01-03-2008, 12:43 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
1. What is wrong with Timonens/Gagnes contract?
2. If Flyers give up Parent, JVR, and Carter for Phaneuf how are we going to sign him with out moving at least one contract.

I understand you are looking for top prospects because you are giving up an excellent young player but there is no way we can sign Phaneuf unless we move someone. mAybe 3 way trade would be a better option.

Lets say Flyers trade Smith to Washington
1.Washington gives up a decent d-sive prospect to CAL (Seabrook/Godfrey/Schultz) plus 2nd or a prospect that CAL GM wants and Washington GM is willing to give up... Not sure.
2. Flyers move Timonen, Carter, Giroux and 1st to CAL.

CAL gets: Good prospect plus 2nd from Washington and Timonen, Carter, Giroux and 1st. Tough to lose Phaneuf who is great but hey this deal can be done.

.
The whole premise here is that the Flames move Phaneuf because they can't afford to sign him to a long term deal, or don't have cap room. In that case, it would make no sense for them to bring in another huge contract in the deal. In addition, if they move Phaneuf, that is a sign that they do not think they can win it all with the current lineup and need to retool. So, they'll want a new young core - not vets.

Timonen's cap hit is something like $6.3 million a year, and his actual real-world salary is $8 million. In real world dollars, I believe he will be the highest paid dman in the league this year.

Here is what ESPN.com (who recently listed Timonen's contract as one of worst in the league in terms of cap implications had to say):

Kimmo Timonen, Philadelphia Flyers

Contract: $6.33 million per season through 2012-13


OK, so the Flyers finished dead last in the NHL last season in goals against and points. So, the solution is throwing Bobby Orr-type cash at Kimmo Timonen? If you think we're exaggerating, keep in mind Timonen's 2007-08 salary would be the highest on 10 other NHL teams. The two-time All-Star is a crafty defenseman with better-than-average skills. He can quarterback the power play and is durable. The downside -- he is undersized and has never helped elevate a team to greatness. Timonen has never been on a team that has won a playoff series and it's unlikely he will ever live up to the huge dollars he is receiving in Philly.



If the Flames could fit that contract on their payroll, they could certaily afford to resign Phaneuf for a longterm deal. And, I'm sorry, Timonen is simply not good enough to be one of the highest paid dmen in the NHL. A fine two-way dmen, yes, but a true Norris contender or a top five dman, no. Holmgrem did when he had to - and overpaid to get a sub-elite dman on the roster. But, Timonen's contract is very poor bang for the buck and not a player you want if you have budget problems.

Gagne makes 5.25 million a year. Although I think he is worth that much, why would the Flames spend 5.25 million on Gagne when they could spend a bit more than that and get Phaneuf signed?

And, yeah, you are right that the Flyers probably wouldn't be able to trade for a Phaneuf-type, and keep all their big contracts. This is another reason why none of these deals can happen.

BTW, why would a non-playoff team like Washington give up a 2nd rounder and a good prospect for an impending UFA?


Last edited by Darth Milbury: 01-03-2008 at 12:59 PM.
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01-03-2008, 01:02 PM
  #53
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Ohh here we go again... ESPN says Timonens contract is the worst in NHL...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
And, yeah, you are right that the Flyers probably wouldn't be able to trade for a Phaneuf-type, and keep all their big contracts. This is another reason why none of these deals can happen.
Thats why I offered Gagnes, Timonen contracts in return to make it work..

I could say JVR, Carter, Parent, Giroux, and 3 1st rounds picks add Coburn too. why the hell not.

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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
BTW, why would a non-playoff team like Washington give up a 2nd rounder and a good prospect for an impending UFA?
Anythign can happen in that weak division. Do you think Smith would not help that young team? I'd give up 2nd round pick for Smith then signing Poti to 3-4 year deal...


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01-03-2008, 01:11 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
Ohh here we go again... ESPN says Timonens contract is the worst in NHL...

Thats why I offered Gagnes, Timonen contracts in return.
Right, but that is making the trade work for Philly. It still doesn't make sense for Calgary to eat Timonen's $8 million contract this year. The goal of trading Phaneuf is to make payroll room - not to even out payroll by eating an expensive contract from an older player. That aspect of your deal is one-sided: it only take's Philly's perspective into account.

You still haven't told us why Calgary would do this. If they can't afford to give Phaneuf a long-term deal at 6 million+, why would they eat a similar contract in Timonen?

And, for what little is worth, I think ESPN is basically correct about Timonen. I think he is a very good dman, but they are right that the Flyers overpaid by a significant margin. For that reason, I think Timonen probably has negative trade value right now.

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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
Anythign can happen in that weak division. Do you think Smith would not help that young core of players??
Vets are good for a young team to have around. But, trading picks and prospects for a guy who will likely be gone in 40 games makes no sense for a rebuilding team. Again, that is another aspect of your proposal that is purely driven by Philly's needs.

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01-03-2008, 01:14 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
You still haven't told us why Calgary would do this. If they can't afford to give Phaneuf a long-term deal at 6 million+, why would they eat a similar contract in Timonen?
I told you why Flyers CAN NOT do this. Plus I am not sure how much Phaneuf is looking for. Maybe it's 7M a year.

What do you mean to eat Timonens contract... Because ESPN says it's bad? Next year Timonens scores 65pts and you will hear different story from ESPN.

What did ESPN had to say about Schneider contract.
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
And, for what little is worth, I think ESPN is basically correct about Timonen. I think he is a very good dman, but they are right that the Flyers overpaid by a significant margin. For that reason, I think Timonen probably has negative trade value right now.
Name me teams who did not overpay for top UFAs.. Including your team.


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01-03-2008, 01:20 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
I told you why Flyers CAN NOT do this. Plus I am not sure how much Phaneuf is looking for. Maybe it's 7M a year.

What do you mean to eat Timonens contract... Because ESPN says it's bad? Next year Timonens scores 65pts and you will hear different story from ESPN.

Timonen has never scored 65 points in his career. He is on pace for 40 this year, which has basically been his career average. So, its nice that you project him to that level but there is no evidence at all that he could ever get there. I'm sorry, but a smallish dman who puts up those numbers and does not dominate in his own end is simply not worth 6.3 million a year in today's NHL.

To get back to my earlier question, if the Flames have payroll room for $8 million a year, and cap room for $6.3 million a year, why don't they just sign Phaneuf? I seriously doubt that Phaneuf wants 7 million, but even if he did, that still wouldn't be a lot more than Timonen makes. In fact, with the other players in the deal, you've put together one of those special salary dump deals that actually adds payroll.

Flames downgrade from Phanuef to Timonen and add an expensive contract to boot. That makes no sense for Calgary at all.

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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
IName me teams who did not overpay for top UFAs.. Including your team.
Yup. Many teams, including the Islanders, overpay for UFAs. And, then those UFAs go on to have zero trade value unless they are moved as end-of-season rentals. Sutton, Comrie, Guerin, all have nil trade value at this point in the season - just like Timonen.

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01-03-2008, 01:32 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
Timonen has never scored 65 points in his career. He is on pace for 40 this year, which has basically been his career average. So, its nice that you project him to that level but there is no evidence at all that he could ever get there. I'm sorry, but a smallish dman who puts up those numbers and does not dominate in his own end is simply not worth 6.3 million a year in today's NHL.
Don't be sorry. He is one the best d-man in Atlantic division. Flyers did not play 40 games yet. Thats our 1st year after finishing dead last.

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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
To get back to my earlier question, if the Flames have payroll room for $8 million a year, and cap room for $6.3 million a year, why don't they just sign Phaneuf? I seriously doubt that Phaneuf wants 7 million, but even if he did, that still wouldn't be a lot more than Timonen makes. In fact, with the other players in the deal, you've put together one of those special salary dump deals that actually adds payroll.
Same rerason why would Flyers give up 5 picks or young players to trade for Phaneuf and not be able to sign him. *** are we? NYI?

Thats why I offered Timoenens or Gagnes contract. To make #s work.

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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
Flames downgrade from Phanuef to Timonen and add an expensive contract to boot. That makes no sense for Calgary at all.
There is no 2nd Phanuef in NHL ,so CAL will downgrade no matter what if they want to move him. They will however upgrade in every other position.

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01-03-2008, 01:40 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
Don't be sorry. He is one the best d-man in Atlantic division..
Probably true. But, the Atlantic divison, for whatever the reason, does not have many elite dmen in it. There are quite a few dmen in the conference that I'd well above him though: Kaberle, Chara, Phillips, Redden, JayBo, Boyle, Markov, and none of these guys will be taking home eight million this year.

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Same rerason why would Flyers give up 5 picks to trade for Phaneuf ..
Again, you keep telling us why the Flyers can't make the move unless it is built around Timonon/Gagne etc. But, once again, why would Calgary do this? There are two teams in a deal. If you want a trade to work, it had to make sense for both teams. And, a deal in which Calgary lands a very expensive vet will make no sense whatsoever for them.

You've structured something that works for Philly, but never bothered to think about the other team's perspective.

The challenge in this sort of thread is to come up with somethng that works for Philly AND works for Calgary. You've not come close to that.

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What are we? NYI? ..
Easily the most immature comment in the entire thread. You opinions aren't holding up so you drop down to chidish shots about the other poster's favorite team. Low class, to say the least.


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There is no 2nd Phanuef in NHL ,so CAL will downgrade no matter what if they want to move him. .
True, and that is why Calgary won't move him.

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01-03-2008, 01:53 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
Probably true. But, the Atlantic divison, for whatever the reason, does not have many elite dmen in it. There are quite a few dmen in the conference that I'd well above him though: Kaberle, Chara, Phillips, Redden, JayBo, Boyle, Markov, and none of these guys will be taking home eight million this year.
I have a feeling that you are not going to see those kind of players as UFA

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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
Again, you keep telling us why the Flyers can't make the move unless it is built around Timonon/Gagne etc. But, once again, why would Calgary do this? There are two teams in a deal. If you want a trade to work, it had to make sense for both teams. And, a deal in which Calgary lands a very expensive vet will make no sense whatsoever for them.
Maybe CAL fans would love to have someone like Gagne or Timonen and bunch of young prospects or players. Maybe not.

As a Flyers fan I would love the idea to have a player of Phaneuf caliber.

That’s why I posted this offer. Trying to figure out what would work for both teams.
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
So far he is the best forward in 2008 WJC.

Phaneuf is great but Flyers giving up 25 goal scorer in Carter (he will score that much this season), JVR looks like a real deal, Parent has all the tools to become a very good top 4 stay home d-man not to mention picks. Carter is 6'3 so is JVR and Parent is about 6'2. We would have to sign Phaneuf to a long term around 6M a year.. No cap flexibility. As good as Phaneuf is I think we better off.

Flyers would have to move Timonen in this deal. Timonen plus young players and picks? I think we should start with Timonens contract going back to CAL.

JVR plus Timonen for Phaneuf?
Carter + Timonen and 1st for Phaneuf?

Or if CAL interested in Gagne, he is making 5M.
Gagne + Carter and 1st? Roughly 7.5M in contracts.
I am not even going to reply to those "low class" comments. It's not like I did not acknowledged that this trade is impossible. See in bold.

If Pronger was traded for: Joffrey Lupul, Ladislav Smid, a 1st round selection in 2007, a conditional 1st round selection and a 2nd round selection in 2008.

Why can't Phaneuf be traded in theory..

Come off your high horse.. and lets have a normal discussion.


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01-03-2008, 01:59 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
I have a feeling that you are not going to see those kind of players as UFA.
Not that it has anything to do with your trade ideas, but Chara already did hit UFA and Redden will likely move in that direction next year. Florida is having trouble getting JayBo under contract and Ottawa had to give Phillips a multiyear deal to get him to avoid UFA.

I think the general shortage of elite dman on the UFA market is why the Flyers made a reasonable move in signing Timonen (even if they did overpay). But, that still doesn't make Timonen's contract tradeable.

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Maybe CAL fans would love to have someone like Gagne or Timonen and bunch of young prospects or players. Maybe not. .
I wonder how CAL fans (as if that matters) would feel about having their stud young dman shipped out?

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As a Flyers fan I would love the idea to have a player of Phaneuf caliber.

That’s why I posted this offer.
I understand, but again, it takes two to tangle. And, all you've done is post a deal that works for the Flyers. It has to work for both teams to have a chance. Anybody can make up a proposal that only helps their team.

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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post

If Pronger was traded for: Joffrey Lupul, Ladislav Smid, a 1st round selection in 2007, a conditional 1st round selection and a 2nd round selection in 2008.



Why can't Phaneuf be traded in theory...
Oh, I do think Phaneuf can be traded (at least in theory). I just think it has to involve a deal that makes
sense for both teams. The Pronger deal is sort of a good example because EDM got lots of inexpensive
assets in return. They didn't move salary for salary. The Pronger situation was also special becaue
he demanded to be traded. Phaneuf hasn't done that.

So, yeah, Phaneuf COULD be moved in theory. But, it would have to be a deal that helps both teams.
A trade built that actually adds payroll to Calgary wouldn't do that.


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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post

Come off your high horse.. and lets have a normal discussion.
With that, I'm done interacting with you. If you can't exchange ideas without the snitty comments and the chidish shots at other posters
favorite teams, what is the point?


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01-03-2008, 02:27 PM
  #61
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Not that it has anything to do with your trade ideas, but Chara already did hit UFA and Redden will likely move in that direction next year. Florida is having trouble getting JayBo under contract and Ottawa had to give Phillips a multiyear deal to get him to avoid UFA.
Redden will ask for more $. He did not take it easy on Sens when cap was 44M or something. His career high is 50pts
Same goes for Chara who BY THE WAY never scored more then 50 pts in his life
What about Souray and his one good season as well as his outstanding +- stats.

You removed Markov and Kaberle.. Hometown discounts.

But somehow you posted that crappy ESPN article about Timonen and how he is overpaid but whatever... calling him 40pts d-man. How much would Chara or Redden ask 7-8?
Who is childish? Who is taking shots at who? Grow the ***** up.

Wait until summer, when cap will go up and get ready because your jaw will hit the ground. Timonens contract will be very reasonable.
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I think the general shortage of elite dman on the UFA market is why the Flyers made a reasonable move in signing Timonen (even if they did overpay). But, that still doesn't make Timonen's contract tradeable.
Wait another 2 years.

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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
I wonder how CAL fans (as if that matters) would feel about having their stud young dman shipped out?
Maybe you should go through the whole thread.

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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
I understand, but again, it takes two to tangle. And, all you've done is post a deal that works for the Flyers. It has to work for both teams to have a chance. Anybody can make up a proposal that only helps their team.
I offered our best d-man and our best LW plus picks and players asking if a deal like that would work. what have you done besides trying to hit me with your purse?
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With that, I'm done interacting with you. If you can't exchange ideas without the snitty comments and the chidish shots at other posters favorite teams, what is the point?
Not like you had anything constructive to add...

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01-03-2008, 02:37 PM
  #62
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I'm completely with Darth on this. If we take on any more than $6-7 million in salary in a Dion Phaneuf trade.... well, we might as well keep him.

Kaktus, Timonen doesn't exist in Calgary as long as Aucoin exists, financially speaking. Sorry.

Phaneuf isn't going anywhere, and I'm sorry, but Darth is completely right in everything he's saying.

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01-03-2008, 02:41 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
Redden will ask for more $. He did not take it easy on Sens when cap was 44M or something. His career high is 50pts
Same goes for Chara who BY THE WAY never scored more then 50 pts in his life
What about Souray and his one good season as well as his outstanding +- stats.

You removed Markov and Kaberle.. Hometown discounts.....
Chara's typical season is about 40 points. Offensively, he produces about as much as Timonen but he is also about a foot taller than Timonen and completely dominates in his own end.

Anyway, all this discussion about other UFAs is sort of besides the point. Bascially, Timonen is a overpaid but the Flyers made a reasonable move signing him. As you've pointed out, most top pairing dmen never reach UFA status. So, when one comes available, GMs sometimes bite the bullit and overpay. You get a good asset for your team, but probably wind up with a player who would be extremely hard to trade later.

It was a good signing for the Flyers, but trading for him would not make sense for Calgary.

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But somehow you posted that crappy ESPN article about Timonen and how he is overpaid but whatever... calling him 40pts d-man. Who is childish? Who is taking shots at who? Grow the ***** up. Wait until summer, when cap will go up and get ready because your jaw will hit the ground. Timonens contract will be very reasoable
Wait another 2 years....
Can you explain to me how calling a player who has annually scores between 30 - 40 points a year, is on a 40 point pace this year, and has a career high of 44 points, and a career average of close to 30 points, a 40 point dman is "childish," "taking shots," or requires "growing the ***** up." Even when the truth hurts, it is still the truth. Timonen IS a 40 point dman, whether you like it or not. And ESPN does have a point, whether you like it or not. You want to take offense at reality, knock yourself out.

I also fail to see how quoting ESPN or other resaonable sites is a personal attack of some kind.

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I offered our best d-man and our best LW plus picks and players asking if a deal like that would work. ...
For the 900th time, let me be clear: Why would a team trade a great asset for salary reasons and acquire player who will add huge amounts of payroll as a result? Timonen + Carter and the other assets you've discussed will easily cost more than Phaneuf. Once again, not from the Flyers perspective, but from the other team: If you are Calgary, where is the logic in this move? Calgary prime motivation in this scenario is clearing payroll and making salary cap room. So, why in the world would they trade for a dman who will make 8 million this year?

This is the point I've made from the start, but you've never once even hinted at a reasonable response.

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what have you done besides trying to hit me with your purse? Not like you had anything constructive to add...
I rest my case. I don't have to call you out for snitty stuff like this, because it is obvious to anybody who reads. It would be nice if you could exchange ideas without the snitty comments, personal insults, and childish jabs.

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01-03-2008, 02:42 PM
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damnit i get mad when someone says that! or when people say that he's not on the trade block, why do you think genius? this is Hfboards where a bunch of fans chat and learn, if he says it it's to now what fair value is, it's not like the proposal is actually going to happen anytime soon.
Wow, sour grapes?

I asked for a simple explanation, that's all. It's nice to know where the original poster is coming from, and why he/she thought of it.

I guess asking for an explanation is too much to ask. Didn't realize you actually supported the degredation of post quality on HF, as opposed to increasing itby provided logical and sensible supporting rationale.

Whoops, silly me, I guess.

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01-03-2008, 02:53 PM
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I'm completely with Darth on this. If we take on any more than $6-7 million in salary in a Dion Phaneuf trade.... well, we might as well keep him.

Kaktus, Timonen doesn't exist in Calgary as long as Aucoin exists, financially speaking. Sorry.

Phaneuf isn't going anywhere, and I'm sorry, but Darth is completely right in everything he's saying.
It's not about who is right or who is wrong... It's about what would it take.
1. Just prospects and players who makes under 1.5M answer.. Flyers can not do it.
2. How much salary CAL willing to take because in this particular trade Flyers MUST move a contract. If CAL is willing to take a contract then it is possible.
3. If it is a mix of players (I do not just mean Timonen but I also offered Gagne, Darth probably missed that part) plus picks and players then in theory we can swing this HF deal.
4. No one is arguing.. This trade is close to Mission Impossible and yesterdays game agaist Rangers was a perfect example. That hit on shanny was a beauty and so was that scoring chance.

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Can you explain to me how calling a player who has annually scores between 30 - 40 points a year, is on a 40 point pace this year, and has a career high of 44 points, and a career average of close to 30 points, a 40 point dman is "childish," "taking shots," or requires "growing the ***** up." Even when the truth hurts, it is still the truth. Timonen IS a 40 point dman, whether you like it or not. And ESPN does have a point, whether you like it or not. You want to take offense at reality, knock yourself out.
The reality is that this season is 37 games young for the Flyers and we spend most of our season at the bottom last year. It takes time sometimes a season to get things going. Calling Timonen a 40pts based on 37 games with the Flyers is just plain stupid. I guess you do not see it. Chara was -21 last year. Is he a minus player? I mean I guess he is based on yoru logic..

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I rest my case. I don't have to call you out for snitty stuff like this, because it is obvious to anybody who reads. It would be nice if you could exchange ideas without the snitty comments, personal insults, and childish jabs.
I thought you left?


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01-03-2008, 03:19 PM
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The reality is that this season is 37 games young for the Flyers and we spend most of our season at the bottom last year. It takes time sometimes a season to get things going. Calling Timonen a 40pts based on 37 games with the Flyers is just plain stupid. I guess you do not see it. Chara was -21 last year. Is he a minus player? I mean I guess he is based on yoru logic..
I thought you left?
Dude... please stop.

Timonen IS a 40-50 point player. That's what he's historically been. He projected for 43 points this year. Why is this even being debated? He's most certainly NOT the 65-point player you project him to be.

And... it takes a season to get things going? For the sake of my team, I would hope not. By Game 63 or 64, you should more or less know if you're going to be in the playoffs or not.

Darth is bang on with his comments.

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01-04-2008, 07:03 PM
  #67
numbrman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IlkaScoraGoala View Post

Calgary can't afford to have a payroll near the $50 million dollar mark. Calgary can't afford to allow Phaneuf to set his own price because they cannot afford to match $7-8 million dollar a year deal. So, if Phaneuf doesn't get extended before the season is over, Calgary would have to think about trading him before losing him for nothing. And Calgary is cheap, I wouldn't be surprised to see them take a package of prospect and picks.
You lost all credibility with this statement. Calgary CAN afford to spend to the cap. They can't when the dollar is worth 0.60, they most certainly can with the dollar at (or over) par. Calgary is absolutely booming economically. You have over a million hockey mad fans. They have a huge waiting list for seasons tickets. You sir, do not have a clue what you are talking about. And on top of that, the Flames ownership group is very wealthy, and are not looking to make an operating profit from the team. As long as the team breaks even, they are happy.

As for Calgary being cheap, just ask Kipper and Iginla if Calgary is "cheap". You obviously are just one of the many "anti-Calgary" idiots that troll this board. What a turd.

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01-04-2008, 08:09 PM
  #68
Lunatik*
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by numbrman View Post
You lost all credibility with this statement. Calgary CAN afford to spend to the cap. They can't when the dollar is worth 0.60, they most certainly can with the dollar at (or over) par. Calgary is absolutely booming economically. You have over a million hockey mad fans. They have a huge waiting list for seasons tickets. You sir, do not have a clue what you are talking about. And on top of that, the Flames ownership group is very wealthy, and are not looking to make an operating profit from the team. As long as the team breaks even, they are happy.

As for Calgary being cheap, just ask Kipper and Iginla if Calgary is "cheap". You obviously are just one of the many "anti-Calgary" idiots that troll this board. What a turd.
i think he is stuck in the late 90s when Calgary couldn't afford to spend 55+ million American

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01-04-2008, 08:33 PM
  #69
HuskyFlames
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I would do this deal if the Flames have a trade lined up for Langkow for a top 4 defenseman.

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Old
01-04-2008, 08:41 PM
  #70
mercury
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I think that Philly COULD deal for Phaneuf, but would not. We'd have to give up so much, and pay him a ton. He's great, though. He'd instantly make us so dangerous. It's fun to just read the spitballing and hypotheticals here.

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01-04-2008, 09:46 PM
  #71
Wyrm
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Originally Posted by mercury View Post
I think that Philly COULD deal for Phaneuf, but would not. We'd have to give up so much, and pay him a ton. He's great, though. He'd instantly make us so dangerous. It's fun to just read the spitballing and hypotheticals here.
Dangerous in the offensive zone, in the defensive zone, or in both?

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