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Old
01-05-2008, 12:34 PM
  #51
Handyy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pluckfur
But the defense IS responsible for the transition game out of their own zone. The dmen and the forwards both need to be thinking aggression and offense as soon as they gain possession of the puck. Playing good D doesn't detract from a teams ability to control play and earn quality scoring chances but rather enhances it, and actually makes it a more likely occurrence.
Yep, it is responsible, that's a no brainer. You're right what you're saying there. But what I'm trying to say is, we are too defensive minded. We do it partly in the expense of offense. We are not creating enough offense because we are all about defence. The balance is just not right. Maybe it is either a) Hitch has wanted to make this ultra-defensive system and is going to promote more offensive in the 2nd half of the season, as the base, defense is now working. or b) It's the system Hitch wants to use all season.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pluckfur
Illya is not only in Atlanta for the offense and scoring goals. If that were the case then Bob Hartley wouldn't have benched Kovalchuk repeatedly through the years (and infact benched him in the last regular season game last year) because of selfishness and sloppy defensive play. I don't care how many goals Kovalchuk scores for the Thrashers ... they aren't going to win any Cups (and not even many playoff games) before Kovalchuk becomes the kind of two-way player he ought to be. Yeah, Kovy scores a lot goals but that doesn't seem to help the Thrashers win any more often than the Jackets.

We have seen how Nash plays when he's not expected to contribute to the defense on this team ... we witnessed season after season of it without any clear benefit to the team. I'm not saying I *have* to see Rick on the PK every game ... what I am saying is that it's been my observation that the added ice time and responsibility has only made Rick a more valuable and effective member of this team.
Well, Bob Hartley was really not able to get the best out of Kovalchuk in my opinion. He started to head into a dead-end with his moves. In fact, as soon as he was fired Ilya started scoring loads of goals under interim Waddell. I would love to see him play exactly the same role for Jackets as he is now playing for Thrashers. With his goals, especially on PP we would have won so many games. Or, then you could turn him into a SH player and make him score less... Recently, Jagr has been playing SH as well. I just think it's the same thing with Nash. I don't see that he would be more effective now, he's more valuable for Jackets when he is scoring loads of goals.

In both cases, I don't think you can't say really that because Kovalchuk or Nash weren't true two-way forwards teams weren't winning. Now that Nash is one, Jackets are still under the playoff line. It's a team effort, some players need to score, some players need to play tough and some players need to play defensively. Every team will fail if they don't have good enough players for every role. Ovechkin plays excellent all the time, but as the team otherwise is poor, they don't have any chance getting into playoffs. If Atlanta would now have Jackets defense and goaltending, they would easily be on the playoffs because how Kovalchuk can score goals.

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01-05-2008, 01:08 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Handyy View Post
Yep, it is responsible, that's a no brainer. You're right what you're saying there. But what I'm trying to say is, we are too defensive minded. We do it partly in the expense of offense. We are not creating enough offense because we are all about defence. The balance is just not right. Maybe it is either a) Hitch has wanted to make this ultra-defensive system and is going to promote more offensive in the 2nd half of the season, as the base, defense is now working. or b) It's the system Hitch wants to use all season.


Well, Bob Hartley was really not able to get the best out of Kovalchuk in my opinion. He started to head into a dead-end with his moves. In fact, as soon as he was fired Ilya started scoring loads of goals under interim Waddell. I would love to see him play exactly the same role for Jackets as he is now playing for Thrashers. With his goals, especially on PP we would have won so many games. Or, then you could turn him into a SH player and make him score less... Recently, Jagr has been playing SH as well. I just think it's the same thing with Nash. I don't see that he would be more effective now, he's more valuable for Jackets when he is scoring loads of goals.

In both cases, I don't think you can't say really that because Kovalchuk or Nash weren't true two-way forwards teams weren't winning. Now that Nash is one, Jackets are still under the playoff line. It's a team effort, some players need to score, some players need to play tough and some players need to play defensively. Every team will fail if they don't have good enough players for every role. Ovechkin plays excellent all the time, but as the team otherwise is poor, they don't have any chance getting into playoffs. If Atlanta would now have Jackets defense and goaltending, they would easily be on the playoffs because how Kovalchuk can score goals.
Aha! so you do see the light! If the Thrashers played Defense LIKE THE JACKETS play defense ... they might actually have a team worthy of a Cup. By George, Handyy, I believe you've got it!

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Old
01-05-2008, 02:05 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by contingent_23 View Post
here is the scoring problem in a nutshell...

Aside from Nash and Zherdev, this team has no other constant scoring threats currently...
In the end your spot on..... as a follow up comment, the key to winning is defense so Hitch is a good guy to have around but the defense strategy can't be be so tight that guys are afraid to take a chance.... Some have referred to the lack of defenseman production, good point. Our defenseman must improve moving the puck up ice and must increase their offensive side....

As for Nash on the PK, he is a big part of our top ranking in that department. He is a stud on the PK and puts short handed fear in the mind of every headcoach in the league (even if he never scores....).

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Old
01-05-2008, 02:36 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Handyy View Post
Edited by jacketsgeek for brevity But what I'm trying to say is, we are too defensive minded. We do it partly in the expense of offense. We are not creating enough offense because we are all about defence. The balance is just not right. Maybe it is either a) Hitch has wanted to make this ultra-defensive system and is going to promote more offensive in the 2nd half of the season, as the base, defense is now working. or b) It's the system Hitch wants to use all season.
Handyy - I will grant you a couple things - team scoring is down (3 points in 40 games) and maybe the balance isn't right...

...it isn't right for a Stanley Cup Champion.

The rest of the numbers don't support you here...we are not too defensive minded. It has not been a detrement (sp?) to our offense. There are some individual numbers that are very impressive in support of the system:

Rick Nash -
Goals: 06-07 - 27 Half of 07-08 - 21
Points: 06-07 - 57 Half of 07-08 - 35
+/-: 06-07 - (-8) Half of 07-08 - +2

Nick Z-
Goals: 06-07 - 10 Half of 07-08 - 15
Points: 06-07 - 32 Half of 07-08 - 33
+/-: 06-07 - (-19) Half of 07-08 - +1

Granted +/- may not be the best indicator of improved defensive play but, the other team is scoring a lot less than they did when these two are on the ice.

BTW - Nash's numbers are more amazing when you compare them with the year he won the RR trophy (an offensive award)
Rick Nash -
Goals: 03-04 - 41 Half of 07-08 - 21 (on target)
Assists: 03-04 - 16 Half of 07-08 - 14 (blown away)
+/-: 03-04 - (-35) Half of 07-08 - +2 (nuked)

The most important # is our points - 44 after 41 games this year compared to 36 last year.
The system is right on...it will take time but, it's moving forward.
We'll be in the hunt all season this year (if not in the playoffs).
We'll play well into April next year.
And then...

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Old
01-05-2008, 03:26 PM
  #55
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The problem with looking Nash's numbers is that really, from the last 17 games Nash has been on the scoresheet with goals in only two of them.

Also I believe this season we have played much more at home than last season? Next two months are mostly on away, so 44 points against last season 36 is not that much better if you count the home factor in them. We'll see the truth at the end of the season when it's all evened out. Altough I'm not 100% sure what is the accurate stat between last and this season though, correct me if I'm wrong.

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Old
01-05-2008, 05:13 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacketsgeek View Post
Folks...I think we've danced all around it here...
It's not really about our 'scoring problems' - it's about winning.
Our scoring is down a bit from last year but, our points against is way down.
(I don't have exact numbers here but, someone quoted above we have 103 goals this year as opposed to 106 last year - and looking at our goalies GAAs)

This has computed to Ws (and points.)

It's a combination of playing good defense AND offense. That's the system. You start by establishing the system. 'This is how we are going to play'.
Our GAA average is more then good enough to get us points and into the playoffs.

Now it's time to get the guys to get enough pucks in the back of the net to win more of these one goal games or push more games into overtime so we at least get a point out of the game. Whether that by from 5 on 5 or from the PP, or a combination.

I don't think anyone is expecting this team to be in the top 10 in scoring, however we need to get more 3 goal games. At 3 goals our odds of winning go up dramatically. That's kind of the point of the thread. How do we squeeze all the offense we possibly can out of this team? It's not likely to come through trades, so we either get it from out current players, from our farm system, or we watch other teams play after game 82. Your just not going to win, consistantly, scoring 2 goals a game, or less, on the average night.

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