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No contract talks with Sean Avery

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Old
01-05-2008, 02:30 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Kostik View Post
Even now Rangers are sorely missing proper puck moving d-man and PP QB. So they will part away with Rozsival who is the best going-to-be UFA this season?
And no, Girardi is not in Rozsival league...
Rozsival isn't a puck-moving, PP QB.

Three of the team's 4 best defenseman are 25 or younger. There is reason to believe that they will get better.

And for all the talk of a PP QB, as long as Jagr is here, the PP will run through him.

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01-05-2008, 02:33 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Rozsival isn't a puck-moving, PP QB.

Three of the team's 4 best defenseman are 25 or younger. There is reason to believe that they will get better.

And for all the talk of a PP QB, as long as Jagr is here, the PP will run through him.
Yeah, the ****** one. The one that scores goals (inconsistently but still) is the Shanahan, Gomez, Drury, Tyutin and Girardi one.

And Gomez is the QB on that one.

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01-05-2008, 02:38 PM
  #53
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Count L.A. out of the Avery sweepstakes. Him and Brown seriously do not get along. I'd rather keep our first line winger happy by not signing a guy who's had problems in L.A. before.

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01-05-2008, 03:31 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by SBatesSBergenheim View Post
Forgot to add one thing, I also don't thinking signing Avery to a long term deal is the way to go. He's the type of player who can wear out his welcome and it would become very hard to get a decent return for him (given his reputation)
Completely agree. Wouldn't give him a contract over 2yrs at 3mil apiece. Especially since Shanny will be gone very soon. I think Shanny really keeps his a$$ in line in the locker room. I see Avery as a Terrell Owens of hockey. He can be a cancer in the locker room if unchecked and not kept in line. Anything over 3mil would be insane to pay for him. He just doesn't put up the #'s to warrant it.

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01-05-2008, 03:33 PM
  #55
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I agree with Rangerboy, if Avery is looking to get Hartnell money they he's not going to be a NYR next season.

2.5-3 million at point is as high as I am prepared to go for a 40+ point guy that can't stay healthy.

I like Avery and the way he plays the game, but he's not someone that we should lock up to much cap space in.

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01-05-2008, 03:58 PM
  #56
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anyone thinks that signing avery over rozsival is nuts

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01-05-2008, 04:02 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Glad you know the defense will be weakend. Any chance of you enlightening me on next week's lotto numbers?
No, but I can safely enlighten you to the UFA defenseman list for 08, which currently residing on top of is none other than BROOKS ORPIK.

Thanks, Ill take Rosival. If you have any other stellar ideas on how to fill that spot aside from trading young assets and getting someone that will fit with Drury, Gomez and hanks impending contract (omg such bold predictions!) and can play as well, please, I'm all ears.

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01-05-2008, 04:03 PM
  #58
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Completely agree. Wouldn't give him a contract over 2yrs at 3mil apiece. Especially since Shanny will be gone very soon. I think Shanny really keeps his a$$ in line in the locker room. I see Avery as a Terrell Owens of hockey. He can be a cancer in the locker room if unchecked and not kept in line. Anything over 3mil would be insane to pay for him. He just doesn't put up the #'s to warrant it.

This is so ace-on...

Rangers lose shanny, you might as well turn Avery loose as a sideshow circus.

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01-05-2008, 04:05 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Rozsival isn't a puck-moving, PP QB.

Three of the team's 4 best defenseman are 25 or younger. There is reason to believe that they will get better.

And for all the talk of a PP QB, as long as Jagr is here, the PP will run through him.
Unfortunatelly it doesn't say much about quality of defense.
You need to have d-man veteran presence in the team.
Team with this young d-man core would have hard times to pass first PO round.

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01-05-2008, 05:11 PM
  #60
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this is the first time i actually thought hard about our future financies. and quite frankly i think we're ****ed

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01-05-2008, 07:18 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by SBatesSBergenheim View Post
See, I think if Avery toned his game down just a notch (by that I mean trash talking et.al) he'd be a better player. It's obvious the guy has more than just average skill, is he a superstar? No, but he isn't just average. If the guy would lay off just a bit on being an agitator I think he'd be that much better.

JMHO, and I need to go take a shower as I feel dirty
I gotta take this in a different direction.

Avery needs to play on the edge of being suspended or he is worthless. After his Tucker incident and fine, he was very polite and quiet for a few games.

After his antics Wednesday in Calgary leading to a 10 minute game misconduct, he wasn't himself the next night in Vancouver (invisible?). Bill McCreary was the ref both nights and had his eye on hin in Van.

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01-05-2008, 08:04 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by VisionQuest View Post
is it a bigger mistake to not resign avery, or not resign a 29 year old solid defenseman thats on pace for 51 pts?

I know what Avery "brings to the table" Im a Rangers fan, I live in Los Angeles, Ive seen every game this guy has played since traded from Detroit.

The bottom line is, the Rangers are going to be in a money crunch come this off season and some tough decisions are going to have to be made, put your avery fanboyness aside and think pro-actively about the rangers and their future. He gets the crowd going, that gets the team going, they win games, I get it. Again, this may be a very different team next season, loads of teams that have had more success than the rangers the last two seasons havent had an "avery" in the lineup.

If you need a guy like this to win hockey games, you aren't a very good hockey club to begin with. So addressing THOSE concerns should be your #1 priority.
Had my post been a response to yours I would have quoted it...similar to what I'm doing now.

However, since you feel the need to condescend...I suppose I can oblige your ignorance with a reply that will put you in your place.

The proof is in the pudding where the statistics are concerned with Sean Avery: the Rangers are a much more successful hockey club when he is in the lineup, rather than when he is out.

Furthermore, if the Rangers make the correct choices this off-season they should have more than enough room to sign both Avery and Roszival whilst having room to spare.

However, if you're world is unequivocally black and white (appearances are deceiving but this seems to be the case): I'd choose Avery over Roszival. Guys with Sean's combined attributes are extremely difficult to find. Players like Michael Rozsival are not: there are an abundance of puck moving #4-5 defenseman in this league that when given top powerplay and even strength minutes alongside Jaromir Jagr, would produce 50 points in a season.

By no means am I advocating Sean Avery deserves huge money, but his value to this hockey club exceeds the level of his point or penalty minute totals.

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01-05-2008, 08:29 PM
  #63
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Personally I'd rather not sign either Roszival or Avery for more than two years. The idea of ponying up to Roszival 5 mil per or more in the post Jagr near future is ludicrous. He is a good player but he ain't no all star and he ain't a legit No. 1 d-man. I'd look for his offensive numbers to go down after Jagr leaves and while good defensively he's far from a shutdown player. Avery concerns me in the respect that I see the possibility of him blowing up on us one day. He needs to be kept on a shorter leash than some. There's no denying that the Rangers play with a lot more guts and gumption when he's in the lineup and that is an intangible quality that few players in the league can provide and if in the future of this team he's a 2nd liner then I don't know if 3 or 3.5 is too high a cost. In any case to me he comes before Roszival if only because there's only a handful of players like him around.

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01-05-2008, 08:33 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Had my post been a response to yours I would have quoted it...similar to what I'm doing now.

However, since you feel the need to condescend...I suppose I can oblige your ignorance with a reply that will put you in your place.

The proof is in the pudding where the statistics are concerned with Sean Avery: the Rangers are a much more successful hockey club when he is in the lineup, rather than when he is out.

Furthermore, if the Rangers make the correct choices this off-season they should have more than enough room to sign both Avery and Roszival whilst having room to spare.

However, if you're world is unequivocally black and white (appearances are deceiving but this seems to be the case): I'd choose Avery over Roszival. Guys with Sean's combined attributes are extremely difficult to find. Players like Michael Rozsival are not: there are an abundance of puck moving #4-5 defenseman in this league that when given top powerplay and even strength minutes alongside Jaromir Jagr, would produce 50 points in a season.

By no means am I advocating Sean Avery deserves huge money, but his value to this hockey club exceeds the level of his point or penalty minute totals.
Agreed that you won't find another Sean Avery...however

Rozsival isn't a number 4 or 5 defenseman, and he's isn't a puck moving defensemen. Playing with Jagr is hardly worth noting anymore, since he isn't the offensive threat as of late, and he's still on pace to put up 50 points, Jagr or not, this guy will put up big points now and in the future without Jagr.

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01-05-2008, 09:05 PM
  #65
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Agreed that you won't find another Sean Avery...however

Rozsival isn't a number 4 or 5 defenseman, and he's isn't a puck moving defensemen. Playing with Jagr is hardly worth noting anymore, since he isn't the offensive threat as of late, and he's still on pace to put up 50 points, Jagr or not, this guy will put up big points now and in the future without Jagr.

When Jagr goes I would expect the Rangers to become a more grind it out North-South team. I don't see any of our current d-men putting up big numbers. One who may eventually would be Sanguinetti. Roszival's offensive game is predicated on being a support player much more than anything else--we've spent 2 1/2 seasons watching him pass up glorious scoring chances to give the puck to Jaromir--better positioned for a good shot or not. Without the huge threat that Jagr is--and whether he's scoring or not--I expect the whole offense will suffer when he leaves. If you don't have a big gun--you better learn how to play defense.

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01-05-2008, 09:21 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
When Jagr goes I would expect the Rangers to become a more grind it out North-South team. I don't see any of our current d-men putting up big numbers. One who may eventually would be Sanguinetti. Roszival's offensive game is predicated on being a support player much more than anything else--we've spent 2 1/2 seasons watching him pass up glorious scoring chances to give the puck to Jaromir--better positioned for a good shot or not. Without the huge threat that Jagr is--and whether he's scoring or not--I expect the whole offense will suffer when he leaves. If you don't have a big gun--you better learn how to play defense.
Yes, exactly, with Jagr being the "big man" on the team, Rozsival may feel the need to dish it off instead of shoot. This wouldn't decrease his production if Jagr was gone, it would increase it, being as he wouldn't have another "go to man" instead of shoot. Rozsival's confidence level is never high because the guy never takes matters into his own hands and shoots, if you look at defenseman in top scoring this year, they all have 100+ shots plus basically, Rozsival has less than 60, and he's never shot like over 125 in his career I think.

Unless we sign another big name after the departure of Jaromir Jagr, I don't see Rozsivals' numbers being decreased, but I see them remaining similar or increasing.

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01-05-2008, 10:22 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Bruno Ranger View Post
Agreed that you won't find another Sean Avery...however

Rozsival isn't a number 4 or 5 defenseman, and he's isn't a puck moving defensemen. Playing with Jagr is hardly worth noting anymore, since he isn't the offensive threat as of late, and he's still on pace to put up 50 points, Jagr or not, this guy will put up big points now and in the future without Jagr.
The point is this: the minutes he is getting with the top even strength and power play units are reflected on his stat sheet.

He's playing on the Rangers' top pair because we simply have no one better on the blueline at the moment. However, this is a situation that is rapidly changing. You could make the argument that he has been surpassed by Tyutin and Girardi. Within a year, perhaps a little longer, Staal will exceed him as well.

Furthermore, place a better, more offensively-gifted player in Rozsival's place and you'd see significantly higher numbers than that which he is showing.

This speaks to the fact that he's just not that good...

He's a 4th to 5th defenseman ideally suited for the third pairing. Those type of minutes, against that type of opponent, will allow him to minimize his defensive mishaps while also adding an offensive element from the back line.

I'm curious: on what grounds does Rozsival qualify as anything other than a puck-moving defenseman? To classify a player as a puck-mover does not necessitate his ability to be top notch.

No (and I repeat myself) he's an average, third pairing puck-mover: capable of making sufficient outlet passes or taking the puck up on his own. However, he lacks the speed, puck handling ability, and vision to become an elite puck mover.

Similarly, he lacks the gap control, corner play, and crease clearing ability to consider him any kind of defensive defenseman.

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01-06-2008, 12:02 AM
  #68
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I gotta take this in a different direction.

Avery needs to play on the edge of being suspended or he is worthless. After his Tucker incident and fine, he was very polite and quiet for a few games.

After his antics Wednesday in Calgary leading to a 10 minute game misconduct, he wasn't himself the next night in Vancouver (invisible?). Bill McCreary was the ref both nights and had his eye on hin in Van.

Fair enough, I'm sure you watch a lot more of the Rangers than I do. Just it seems that he becomes so involved with his antics that it takes away from his skill. Maybe he just needs to find a happy medium, no?

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01-06-2008, 02:10 AM
  #69
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Fair enough, I'm sure you watch a lot more of the Rangers than I do. Just it seems that he becomes so involved with his antics that it takes away from his skill. Maybe he just needs to find a happy medium, no?
He's a hack, everyone thinks Avery has some hidden untapped offensive skills somewhere the truth is he doesn't.

He does get caught up in his antics and he almost took a bad penalty late in the third tonight to prove it.

I'm certainly not in support of Avery coming back and I'm certain I'll get flamed for this post but I fail to see what he has brought to the team this year certainly not the same spark as last year.

Sign him to a huge contract and watch him become the biggest joke in the NHL guaranteed.

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01-06-2008, 03:33 AM
  #70
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The point is this: the minutes he is getting with the top even strength and power play units are reflected on his stat sheet.

He's playing on the Rangers' top pair because we simply have no one better on the blueline at the moment. However, this is a situation that is rapidly changing. You could make the argument that he has been surpassed by Tyutin and Girardi. Within a year, perhaps a little longer, Staal will exceed him as well.

Furthermore, place a better, more offensively-gifted player in Rozsival's place and you'd see significantly higher numbers than that which he is showing.

This speaks to the fact that he's just not that good...

He's a 4th to 5th defenseman ideally suited for the third pairing. Those type of minutes, against that type of opponent, will allow him to minimize his defensive mishaps while also adding an offensive element from the back line.

I'm curious: on what grounds does Rozsival qualify as anything other than a puck-moving defenseman? To classify a player as a puck-mover does not necessitate his ability to be top notch.

No (and I repeat myself) he's an average, third pairing puck-mover: capable of making sufficient outlet passes or taking the puck up on his own. However, he lacks the speed, puck handling ability, and vision to become an elite puck mover.

Similarly, he lacks the gap control, corner play, and crease clearing ability to consider him any kind of defensive defenseman.
Sather should hire you to help him with arbitrations, i think you can very well downplay player abilities ;-)
Rozsival is not third-pairing puck mover - first i thought you are not serious with this assesment, but obviously you are.
Toots and Girardi didn't pass him, they are getting exposed way more lately as they have more icetime against top units. To me it seems that they can't log big minutes against top lines yet(and it can be a case that they will never be) without getting burned few times per game.
Again, you don't sign Rozsival, whats your solution with defense? Check the UFA list for this summer and you will find out that only Boyle and Redden can compete with Rozsival. http://www.nhlnumbers.com/freeagents...=ufa&type=none
I would not have problem with upgrade over Rozsival for next season, but there is only Redden avalaible - but he would not sign for less than 6M$.
I don't say that Rozsival should be signed for huge contract, but 4-5 years for 4-4,5$ per? You gotta do it.

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01-06-2008, 03:35 AM
  #71
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By the way, for those who are arguing that with Avery Rangers have better record, you can check same stats from last season about friggin Marek Malik.
I love Sean, but it seems that his magic worked last season, not this one.

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01-06-2008, 06:35 AM
  #72
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I could see Avery/Morris using Sturm as a comparable in their negotiations.Sturm signed a 4 year/$14 million extension with Boston last year before the trading deadline.He was facing group III FA and re-upped in Boston.Darcy Tucker took $3 million per to stay in TO and he looks like toast.

If Roszival/Rich Winter are angling for Pavel Kubina/Roman Hamrlik money,then he should find some other team to give him $5-$5.5 million per in a 4-5 year deal.I really like Roszival but he isn't worth that type of money.He has been a very good player for the Rangers since the lockout.His knee is a concern.Had ACL surgery.Had a minor knee surgery during the 06 camp.Missed a game in TB earlier this season with knee pain

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01-06-2008, 07:25 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Kostik View Post
Sather should hire you to help him with arbitrations, i think you can very well downplay player abilities ;-)
Rozsival is not third-pairing puck mover - first i thought you are not serious with this assesment, but obviously you are.
Toots and Girardi didn't pass him, they are getting exposed way more lately as they have more icetime against top units. To me it seems that they can't log big minutes against top lines yet(and it can be a case that they will never be) without getting burned few times per game.
Again, you don't sign Rozsival, whats your solution with defense? Check the UFA list for this summer and you will find out that only Boyle and Redden can compete with Rozsival. http://www.nhlnumbers.com/freeagents...=ufa&type=none
I would not have problem with upgrade over Rozsival for next season, but there is only Redden avalaible - but he would not sign for less than 6M$.
I don't say that Rozsival should be signed for huge contract, but 4-5 years for 4-4,5$ per? You gotta do it.
Roszival for me is definitely a top 4. On an excellent team (Red Wings for example) he might fit in as the offensive guy on the second pairing. What he does while it might be worth 5 mil per to another team--I don't believe it will be worth it for us. He's 29 now and giving him a 5 year contract for that kind of money is not something I would do. I could see him not being an effective player at all at 34. I don't agree he's a 3rd pairing (though he might be in 2 or 3 years) but I think BigE's assessment of his play is on the money. He is not fast, he's good but not great in his own end. If he wants to play here Sather should hold him to less in years and less in money. 2 years and between 7 and 8 mil overall.

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01-06-2008, 08:06 AM
  #74
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Roszival for me is definitely a top 4. On an excellent team (Red Wings for example) he might fit in as the offensive guy on the second pairing. What he does while it might be worth 5 mil per to another team--I don't believe it will be worth it for us. He's 29 now and giving him a 5 year contract for that kind of money is not something I would do. I could see him not being an effective player at all at 34. I don't agree he's a 3rd pairing (though he might be in 2 or 3 years) but I think BigE's assessment of his play is on the money. He is not fast, he's good but not great in his own end. If he wants to play here Sather should hold him to less in years and less in money. 2 years and between 7 and 8 mil overall.
I bet Rozsival is looking for long term contract, 4 years at least. This is his payday, contract of his career. Lets see how greedy is and how much Sather wants him.

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01-06-2008, 08:33 AM
  #75
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I bet Rozsival is looking for long term contract, 4 years at least. This is his payday, contract of his career. Lets see how greedy is and how much Sather wants him.
I'm sure he is. And for the next couple years he might be fine. What kind of player he is 4-5 years from now is a question. We're already tied down to Drury until he's 36 or so. That could be a lot of money for players who might have by that time hit the skids. It will have a big impact on our making other moves--that is unless the salary cap goes up and up and up. As an aside I expect that will happen because other teams--not just the Rangers can't control themselves and our making bad decisions--both expensive and long term. We missed out on 05-06 for that. My take on this is it's better to target younger UFA's for longer term contracts as in the case of Gomez. Once the player is in the 30 year old range--you have to be careful.

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