HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > New York Rangers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Malik's Reaction on Being Scratched 2nite

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-08-2008, 12:16 PM
  #101
DutchShamrock
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: New Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 5,170
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Yeah, let's stay on topic. Malik sucks. Let's have 5 more threads this week saying Malik sucks. Let's stay on topic people.
I didn't start this or the other 4 Malik threads, but go through any of them and anybody can find you slamming anti-Malik people by bringing up Prucha, Callahan, Sather, Renney, Jagr or anyone besides Malik. You hardly ever debate Malik himself. You distract everyone with rhetoric and supposed logic like, "if Sather is doing a bad job then you can't boo Malik until you boo him". No, players do not have to be judged relative to the rest of the team or organization. Then can be judged in a bubble.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Maybe you missed the point where I clearly wrote that if these guys turn out to be good then he will have done a good job. hmmmmmm.

Sather was saved from his own stupidity by the lockout. You make it seem like he had some sort of revelation about how to manage. He had no choice. He was no longer able to be downright stupid because of the confines of the cap.

When he couldn't be the same kind of stupid in Edmonton he was a horrendous GM for a decade. Sather is one of the best myths in the game. He stepped in **** when Gretzky and Messier dropped in his lap. The two greatest players ever together on a team and he won as a coach with them. Before coming to NY he had exactly one good draft in his entire NHL career as a GM.
And maybe you missed the part where I utterly destroyed your weak logic. Maybe Sather's moves will pan out an he'll be judged as a sufficient GM for NYR. That's irrelevant to the debate right now. What's relevant is you feel like Sather got a pass for his poor performances unlike Malik. My point is he got judged and judged harshly for his crappy GMing prior to the lockout. I don't care how he turned the corner, the point is Malik is getting beat up by the fans just like Sather did. If Renney handcuffs Malik and it somehow turns him into a decent defenseman the fans won't care... they'll stop booing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
This last section is utter nonsense. To say that Malik doesn't try is just plain stupid unless you are saying that Sather, Renney and all of the Rangers are blathering idiots who can't see what you think you see.
I didn't say he doesn't try, I said he doesn't try his hardest. Girardi battles. He battles to stay in the play if he gets beat, he doesn't allow people to waltz around him. He might lose the 1 on 1, but there is a priced paid by the opposition to get there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Little guys always look like they are trying because their legs have to churn to gain as much ice as larger players do with less strides. This is just plain physics.

If Giradi is playing much better than Malik this year why is his +/- so much worse? The excuse for these stats used to be that Malik is saved by playing with Jagr. What is the reasoning now?

This notion that Malik commits multiple mortal sins, if true, would be evident in statistics. Numbers just don't lie. People's perceptions can be off but numbers are facts. Why isn't he a huge minus if he is playing the way you say?

Girardi is given a pass for two reasons. He is young and he has added an offensive side to his game. He will be a better defenseman than Malik. Right now he just isn't playing well no matter how much you prefer his style over Malik's.
Just because he's a plus doesn't mean he doesn't turn the puck over with regularity. Turning the puck over doesn't always result in a goal against. Not everything is explained by your precious stats. There are stories between the numbers, stories you ignore because they don't serve your point. Just because Malik has a better +-than somebody doesn't mean his passing is safer or better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Would I rather have Girardi than Malik? Of course. Do I think that Malik is as bad as you? No. It is for this reasoning that you and a few others have a problem with what I post on this topic. I'm sorry that I can't always follow groupthink. I have a different opinion than you. Can you imagine that? I don't feel the need to pile on when I think it is undeserved. Blasphemy.

I accept that there will be endless threads bashing Malik. You're going to have to accept that not everyone has to join these threads with hearty endorsements of the mob idea. I am allowed to have a contrary opinion.

Numbers are facts. Observations are opinions. I will continue to voice my opinions until the Mods decide otherwise. Whether you feel my points are tangential is meaningless to me.
You know what, up yours. I could care less what you think. I don't bash you for liking Malik, you're just taking low blows here to give your points validity. I don't beat people into submission, I debate the points. You want to attack me, well I'm done glossing over that, I'm bringing it back to you. Make me out to be some kind of a fascist or narrowminded fool because you out think me on some silly message board.

DutchShamrock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2008, 12:46 PM
  #102
chosen
Registered User
 
chosen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,027
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugerya View Post
You know what, up yours. I could care less what you think. I don't bash you for liking Malik, you're just taking low blows here to give your points validity. I don't beat people into submission, I debate the points. You want to attack me, well I'm done glossing over that, I'm bringing it back to you. Make me out to be some kind of a fascist or narrowminded fool because you out think me on some silly message board.
Low blows are pointing to statistics to advocate my view?

Who is not debating the points? What was the first thing you wrote about me in this thread? Was it complimentary? Did it have anything to do with hockey? Did I write anything similar to you?

Up mine? I could give a great response to that one but the Mods, after they stopped laughing, would be forced to suspend me.

Fletch - I think it was you who wrote something about the relative merits of +/- season to season and what you say is true. I don't look at +/- as something that can be compared from year to year or from team to team within the same year.

The only value at all of +/- is within any given team in any given year. It is not an absolute, foolproof way of judging the value of a player but I think it has gone from being considered an overrated gauge to an underrated gauge.

Simply put, no player could be as bad as some maintain Malik is and not be minus. No player can be as bad as some maintain and lead the team in +/- by a huge margin as he did last year. Over a week or month, perhaps. Over multiple seasons, it can no longer be luck.

At least you manage to disagree with me at times without getting nuts about it. That is why we never have the types of discussions that folks like Mugerya and I engage in. Thanks for respecting an opinion that may differ from yours. I get along with a few kids in the sandbox.

chosen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2008, 01:08 PM
  #103
Fletch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 21,473
vCash: 500
Agree on +/-...

and that was me. I use it as a tool, but not an absolute to say XYZ defenseman is great because of it. I think we're on the same page regarding +/-.

And I have to agree on Malik. I can't say that over the last two years he's been as bad as people have said. He's had more than his share of bad shifts and bad games. He's had more than his share of being bailed out (statistically) by Jagr (on the plus side) and Lundqvist (on the minus side). BUT, you're not a better-than-(+20 or +30) in two consecutive seasons and deemed to be horrible defensively.

I'm not a Malik fan. I've made that clear in many posts. I went through a lot of detail a couple seasons ago to point out each shift to show that overall, he was doing poorly. But you don't consistently put up those stats if you're horrific. Can't be done.

We know why many do not like Malik. His gaffes appear to be highlighted because they are usually pretty big (he's an accurate passer, and I think he has confidence in his passes and thus he makes more high-risk passes (and with Jagr out there with him (in the past), he's more apt to try that pass). Most do not like because he doesn't hit, and he's so big yet we see Gionta beat him along the boards (which is a funny sight). Further, he operates effortlessly. He remains very calm and unpanicked out there, even when it appears there should be more urgency (and everyone likes guys who play like the little enging that could). He has good recovery because if he gets beat, he turns around and can still recover without moving.

Those are the reasons why people don't like him, I believe. Much like those who loved Brad Brown, who couldn't skate or be in position, but fought and sometimes hit hard. And this season has been rough - possibly due to injuries, as this season he hasn't played well at all, for the most part (although much of the defense has not played well overall, save Staal (and I'm not saying that because he's 20 years old - he's been this team's most consistent defenseman this season)). Whatever the reason, I think the writing's on the wall Malik's days are numbered.

Fletch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2008, 02:20 PM
  #104
chosen
Registered User
 
chosen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,027
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
and that was me. I use it as a tool, but not an absolute to say XYZ defenseman is great because of it. I think we're on the same page regarding +/-.

And I have to agree on Malik. I can't say that over the last two years he's been as bad as people have said. He's had more than his share of bad shifts and bad games. He's had more than his share of being bailed out (statistically) by Jagr (on the plus side) and Lundqvist (on the minus side). BUT, you're not a better-than-(+20 or +30) in two consecutive seasons and deemed to be horrible defensively.

I'm not a Malik fan. I've made that clear in many posts. I went through a lot of detail a couple seasons ago to point out each shift to show that overall, he was doing poorly. But you don't consistently put up those stats if you're horrific. Can't be done.

We know why many do not like Malik. His gaffes appear to be highlighted because they are usually pretty big (he's an accurate passer, and I think he has confidence in his passes and thus he makes more high-risk passes (and with Jagr out there with him (in the past), he's more apt to try that pass). Most do not like because he doesn't hit, and he's so big yet we see Gionta beat him along the boards (which is a funny sight). Further, he operates effortlessly. He remains very calm and unpanicked out there, even when it appears there should be more urgency (and everyone likes guys who play like the little enging that could). He has good recovery because if he gets beat, he turns around and can still recover without moving.

Those are the reasons why people don't like him, I believe. Much like those who loved Brad Brown, who couldn't skate or be in position, but fought and sometimes hit hard. And this season has been rough - possibly due to injuries, as this season he hasn't played well at all, for the most part (although much of the defense has not played well overall, save Staal (and I'm not saying that because he's 20 years old - he's been this team's most consistent defenseman this season)). Whatever the reason, I think the writing's on the wall Malik's days are numbered.
Staal is by far our best defenseman, already. He really might turn out to be Sather's best pick as GM, except for Lundqvist. I still think Girardi will turn out very well but his ceiling is well below Staal's. I'm disappointed in Tyutin. He's okay but nothing more. He could still get better but I can't see him ever being a first pair guy.

I agree that Malik is not nearly as good as in previous years. Whether he has regressed, or the game has evolved away from him, or the pressure of being booed by ignorant fans in his own building, or something else isn't important anymore. For everyone's sake it would be better if he left but if he stays and fans continue to boo him (and of course they will) these same fans will only be having a negative impact on the team they profess to support.

It's sad that players like Purinton and Orr are fan darlings while far more talented players can be booed because they don't hit or fight. I've seen it for enough years to understand that that is just the way some fans are and there's nothing that can be done about it.

Of all the ideas tossed around about Malik, the most pathetic is that he doesn't try. You can't be in the NHL without amazing dedication.

chosen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2008, 02:38 PM
  #105
Bury Your Head
 
Bury Your Head's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 2,861
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Staal is by far our best defenseman, already. He really might turn out to be Sather's best pick as GM, except for Lundqvist. I still think Girardi will turn out very well but his ceiling is well below Staal's. I'm disappointed in Tyutin. He's okay but nothing more. He could still get better but I can't see him ever being a first pair guy.

I agree that Malik is not nearly as good as in previous years. Whether he has regressed, or the game has evolved away from him, or the pressure of being booed by ignorant fans in his own building, or something else isn't important anymore. For everyone's sake it would be better if he left but if he stays and fans continue to boo him (and of course they will) these same fans will only be having a negative impact on the team they profess to support.

It's sad that players like Purinton and Orr are fan darlings while far more talented players can be booed because they don't hit or fight. I've seen it for enough years to understand that that is just the way some fans are and there's nothing that can be done about it.

Of all the ideas tossed around about Malik, the most pathetic is that he doesn't try. You can't be in the NHL without amazing dedication.

Malik is holding on by a thread. At least with the Rangers.

Bury Your Head is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2008, 02:41 PM
  #106
Fletch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 21,473
vCash: 500
I agree all around, Chosen...

on Girardi - I think he's trying to provide a bit too much offense and his game is suffering as a result. I think the same of Rozsival - who I thought was quite good defensively the last couple years but has regressed, but is putting up the points (and have alluded to the notion he's padding his stats because of free agency and is thus playing for a contract).

I do think Malik's problem is not 100% his problem but more a problem of the unit of five with which he's played. The unit played well as a group and accumulated stats and wins as a group (from Lundqvist out to Jagr). With Jagr struggling early on, Malik also struggled and the unit as a whole did not function well. I think Prucha's PP woes have been a by-product of similar woes of a unit, as well as Straka, etc.

EDIT: On Purinton - oddly enough I liked him most when he was not fighting (never seemed to pick the right time to fight - i.e., starting a fight in the offensive zone with the Rangers down a goal). When he didn't play like an idiot, and kept it simple, he seemed quite useful. The funny thing about him is that he never played very physical. Wasn't a good or frequent bodychecker. Didn't clear the crease. That was odd to me.

Fletch is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:11 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.