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The Third Line: Will it work for the Rest of the Season?

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Old
01-14-2008, 09:06 AM
  #26
pcem
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How about the P.D.D. (P.Diddy) line?

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Old
01-14-2008, 09:07 AM
  #27
DontStepanMe
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
You can call them what you want, but Dubinsky line is 4th. Betts line is 3rd ( as it should be, BTW). 4th line should play its 6-7 min per game. If someone does a good job, it doesn't mean he has to be given more work or got promoted right away. You play Dubi and his midgets against best lines and they will get killed and people who, as usual, fail to see that will call for Malik's head again afterwards or whatever... Betts line remains the best line we have. When they are on the ice, our defense and goalie look good. Kudos to them.
If this line can score consistantly than it should be the third line. In the new NHL top three lines are for scoring, while the 4th line is a grinding line. So if they can produce at a pace of a about a goal every other game or so than they are a true third line. Unfortunately the Betts line isn't a true 3rd line but they are being used by one. The Betts line is a true 4th line.

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01-14-2008, 09:38 AM
  #28
Larry Melnyk
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Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
If this line can score consistantly than it should be the third line. In the new NHL top three lines are for scoring, while the 4th line is a grinding line. So if they can produce at a pace of a about a goal every other game or so than they are a true third line. Unfortunately the Betts line isn't a true 3rd line but they are being used by one. The Betts line is a true 4th line.
When the season started, HBO was definetely a typical 4th line. But the way they have played smart postional defesne and check along with being physical, means they can be a little more then ut a 4th line if need be (and we have had that need). Unfortunately, scoring will be minimal..

The best case scenario in my mind is that the DDP line or whatever version of the 3rd line we have can indeed score and play SOME D to go along with their skating ability. And if the HBO line keeps playing the way they have, these two lines would give us alot of options depending on the opponent and matchups..

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01-14-2008, 10:02 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Larry Melnyk View Post
When the season started, HBO was definetely a typical 4th line. But the way they have played smart postional defesne and check along with being physical, means they can be a little more then ut a 4th line if need be (and we have had that need). Unfortunately, scoring will be minimal..The best case scenario in my mind is that the DDP line or whatever version of the 3rd line we have can indeed score and play SOME D to go along with their skating ability. And if the HBO line keeps playing the way they have, these two lines would give us alot of options depending on the opponent and matchups..

You mean non-existant? Let's be real guys. Hollwegs two goals the other night were an aberration. His second goal went off a face and a goalie glove for crying out loud. You CAN NOT use this line as a third line. They CAN NOT be getting as much ice time as they do. I love Renney and I'm one of his biggest supporters but this is one of his biggest problems. You need your top three lines to be able to score goals. The fourth line CAN NOT and WILL NOT do that on a consistent basis. 94now, I don't care how well they forecheck or keep the puck in the zone or play defense or any of that. That's what your FOURTH line should be doing. When we're struggling and we need to try and get momentum back, that line goes out and tries to change thing. They have a role on this and every team. And it's NOT to be playing 13 minutes a night. I don't see how anyone can defend Renney's use of this line when in lots of games where we fall behind, this line still gets consistent ice time. When this team falls behind by a couple goals you CAN NOT give this line a regular shift and expect to come back and win a game. It seems like they're on the ice every other shift in most cases and this is more than too much. Look at the Lightning game. Renney was obsessed with matching that line with that Lecavalier line and it was as if our 4th line was on the ice the entire first and second period. Do you think John Tortorella really cared? You think he was sweating bullets because Renney was willing to match his top line with the HBO line? Give me a break, he was thrilled. In the THIRD period is when Renney had no choice but to put our top lines out there and we should've come back to tie it if this team could just convert one of multiple powerplays at the end. THAT'S HOW THIS TEAM SHOULD FLOW EVERY GAME. Even Gomez made a comment last week about riding these top lines. You can't put the fourth line out there as much as we do and expect to win hockey games. It just won't happen. You've got to put your best players on the ice the most and let them win games for you. And also, the DDP line showed just as much ability forechecking and controlling the puck. Prucha and Dubi are fearless.

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01-14-2008, 10:38 AM
  #30
Larry Melnyk
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Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
You mean non-existant? Let's be real guys. Hollwegs two goals the other night were an aberration. His second goal went off a face and a goalie glove for crying out loud. You CAN NOT use this line as a third line. They CAN NOT be getting as much ice time as they do. I love Renney and I'm one of his biggest supporters but this is one of his biggest problems. You need your top three lines to be able to score goals. The fourth line CAN NOT and WILL NOT do that on a consistent basis. 94now, I don't care how well they forecheck or keep the puck in the zone or play defense or any of that. That's what your FOURTH line should be doing. When we're struggling and we need to try and get momentum back, that line goes out and tries to change thing. They have a role on this and every team. And it's NOT to be playing 13 minutes a night. I don't see how anyone can defend Renney's use of this line when in lots of games where we fall behind, this line still gets consistent ice time. When this team falls behind by a couple goals you CAN NOT give this line a regular shift and expect to come back and win a game. It seems like they're on the ice every other shift in most cases and this is more than too much. Look at the Lightning game. Renney was obsessed with matching that line with that Lecavalier line and it was as if our 4th line was on the ice the entire first and second period. Do you think John Tortorella really cared? You think he was sweating bullets because Renney was willing to match his top line with the HBO line? Give me a break, he was thrilled. In the THIRD period is when Renney had no choice but to put our top lines out there and we should've come back to tie it if this team could just convert one of multiple powerplays at the end. THAT'S HOW THIS TEAM SHOULD FLOW EVERY GAME. Even Gomez made a comment last week about riding these top lines. You can't put the fourth line out there as much as we do and expect to win hockey games. It just won't happen. You've got to put your best players on the ice the most and let them win games for you. And also, the DDP line showed just as much ability forechecking and controlling the puck. Prucha and Dubi are fearless.
To be real, means dealing with reality. The reality is that prior to the last 1.5 games, Prucha, Cally,Hossa, etc. have sucked individually and collectively on a any line. I'm not ready to give the 3rd line any keys until they can prove they can play both ways..Which I hope they do...Yes, you need three lines that can score but defesne and goaltending wins. And you also need a line that can play against top lines..I would love for it to be a line other then HBO, but that ain't reality yet. Maybe it will be soon, and the 4th can be a 4th line with some added defensiv rresponsibilities....Basically, I'm saying it's not a switch and it's up to guys like DDP and even the 2nd line to perform both ways and make it easy for Renney to use his 4th liners as 4th liners...

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Old
01-14-2008, 11:08 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
You mean non-existant? Let's be real guys. Hollwegs two goals the other night were an aberration. His second goal went off a face and a goalie glove for crying out loud. You CAN NOT use this line as a third line. They CAN NOT be getting as much ice time as they do. I love Renney and I'm one of his biggest supporters but this is one of his biggest problems. You need your top three lines to be able to score goals. The fourth line CAN NOT and WILL NOT do that on a consistent basis. 94now, I don't care how well they forecheck or keep the puck in the zone or play defense or any of that. That's what your FOURTH line should be doing. When we're struggling and we need to try and get momentum back, that line goes out and tries to change thing. They have a role on this and every team. And it's NOT to be playing 13 minutes a night. I don't see how anyone can defend Renney's use of this line when in lots of games where we fall behind, this line still gets consistent ice time. When this team falls behind by a couple goals you CAN NOT give this line a regular shift and expect to come back and win a game. It seems like they're on the ice every other shift in most cases and this is more than too much. Look at the Lightning game. Renney was obsessed with matching that line with that Lecavalier line and it was as if our 4th line was on the ice the entire first and second period. Do you think John Tortorella really cared? You think he was sweating bullets because Renney was willing to match his top line with the HBO line? Give me a break, he was thrilled. In the THIRD period is when Renney had no choice but to put our top lines out there and we should've come back to tie it if this team could just convert one of multiple powerplays at the end. THAT'S HOW THIS TEAM SHOULD FLOW EVERY GAME. Even Gomez made a comment last week about riding these top lines. You can't put the fourth line out there as much as we do and expect to win hockey games. It just won't happen. You've got to put your best players on the ice the most and let them win games for you. And also, the DDP line showed just as much ability forechecking and controlling the puck. Prucha and Dubi are fearless.
I agree, but damn is it brutal reading all that without paragraph breaks

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Old
01-14-2008, 11:30 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Larry Melnyk View Post
To be real, means dealing with reality. The reality is that prior to the last 1.5 games, Prucha, Cally,Hossa, etc. have sucked individually and collectively on a any line. I'm not ready to give the 3rd line any keys until they can prove they can play both ways..Which I hope they do...Yes, you need three lines that can score but defesne and goaltending wins. And you also need a line that can play against top lines..I would love for it to be a line other then HBO, but that ain't reality yet. Maybe it will be soon, and the 4th can be a 4th line with some added defensiv rresponsibilities....Basically, I'm saying it's not a switch and it's up to guys like DDP and even the 2nd line to perform both ways and make it easy for Renney to use his 4th liners as 4th liners...

You can't keep matching lines with the opponents top line every shift. At certain points in the game, yes. But not every shift. You CAN'T do it. Because whoever we're playing's top line is a million times better than Hollweg Betts and Orr. If you play this way consistently, in the long run you're going to lose more than you win. You can only do this at certain times during the game. NOT when you're behind by two goals in the second period.

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Originally Posted by PruBlue25 View Post
I agree, but damn is it brutal reading all that without paragraph breaks
No doubt. I get going and forget about that.

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01-14-2008, 12:12 PM
  #33
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robruckus...

to take it further, Renney does not match each game. At home, he does try to get Betts out there for a lot of shifts against top lines. But he also plays them against fourth lines. I've seen occasions where Jagr goes against fourth lines, and I've seen occasions where Drury (with Prucha and Cally) went against top lines. Further, at about 8-9 minutes per game, they're barely playing 1/2 the ES shifts of other teams' top lines. Now to the point: Orr is -11 - is that a good stat for a guy going against top lines through 45 games? I'm not sure. Prucha has sucked, but somehow is a +1 in his 8-10 minutes of ice time - so to me that sounds like he's doing something out there; perhaps it's sound defense since he's not scoring and is still a plus. Sure he's here to score, but while he's struggling to score at least he's not out there hurting the team defensively.

But the real point is very few notice this if the top two lines are going. If they're going, other problems aren't accentuated, and the way this team was created and is coached, the reliance is on those guys (and perhaps rightfully so).

So many expected 20-30 goals for Prucha. Not sure how that's possible. My expectations at the beginning of the season were closer to 15. Why? Because he didn't have a real spot on the PP and he wasn't on the top two lines. What can one expect from a third liner with some PP time? 15 goals, 25 points. Will he hit that? We'll see, but to expect 25-30 goals is unfair. Of course everyone will shoot back with then what good is he? That's a question for Sather and for Renney. I can only base expectations on the manner in which I believe a player will be used.

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01-14-2008, 12:41 PM
  #34
Larry Melnyk
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Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
You can't keep matching lines with the opponents top line every shift. At certain points in the game, yes. But not every shift. You CAN'T do it. Because whoever we're playing's top line is a million times better than Hollweg Betts and Orr. If you play this way consistently, in the long run you're going to lose more than you win. You can only do this at certain times during the game. NOT when you're behind by two goals in the second period.


.
We don't disagree. The problem is, that same line has been two million times better then the third line. I don't want HBO to be our checking line, but they have been the only line to put in the effort and results defensevily. Hell, they've been scored on TWICE in the last 13 games while averaging about 10 mins a night(But yes, they only scored THREE themselves)..Still, that's pretty damn good and a good contribution for a line going up against top lines a third to a half of the time. The other lines were't doing the job offensively

That being said, I agree, only specific times during games and only against certain opponents should they be used in that fashion. Maybe not at all if another line takes over the mantle--which would be fine with me. That would be the best becasue it means our talented players have bought into the defense---which they need to do.

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01-17-2008, 01:41 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Larry Melnyk View Post
We don't disagree. The problem is, that same line has been two million times better then the third line. I don't want HBO to be our checking line, but they have been the only line to put in the effort and results defensevily. Hell, they've been scored on TWICE in the last 13 games while averaging about 10 mins a night(But yes, they only scored THREE themselves)..Still, that's pretty damn good and a good contribution for a line going up against top lines a third to a half of the time. The other lines were't doing the job offensively

That being said, I agree, only specific times during games and only against certain opponents should they be used in that fashion. Maybe not at all if another line takes over the mantle--which would be fine with me. That would be the best becasue it means our talented players have bought into the defense---which they need to do.
I think the PDD line is fantastic and it will work out our offensive woes for this season, as demonstrated by last night's game.

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01-17-2008, 03:10 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by RangersFan View Post
another reason for the success is they don't have to defer to a vet on the line. they could simply play the way they've been coached. let's just hope they're consistent...
honestly, i didnt even think about this, excellent point man.

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01-17-2008, 03:19 AM
  #37
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I think Dawes certainly deserves to stay up for the rest of the season if he keeps playing like he has.

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01-17-2008, 03:20 AM
  #38
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This line has terrific chemistry. Dubinsky is the perfect center for these guys, he helps both of them make plays. Now all that's needed is for Renney to give them more playing time.

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01-17-2008, 05:21 AM
  #39
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I think Dawes certainly deserves to stay up for the rest of the season if he keeps playing like he has.
Yes, but I have a feeling that Renney is going to try sticking Hossa in there for Dawes since he won't touch the HBO line and theres no room for him in the top 6 now that Avery and Shanny are back.

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01-17-2008, 01:52 PM
  #40
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Yes, but I have a feeling that Renney is going to try sticking Hossa in there for Dawes since he won't touch the HBO line and theres no room for him in the top 6 now that Avery and Shanny are back.
Hossa being scratched last night tells me that maybe Hossa's exemption is over. I don't think Renney would break up his most productive/cohesive line just to slot Hossa back. Maybe after the All-Star break, but certainly not before.

I love the energy and buzz this line is playing with right now; I just wish they saw the ice a bit more.

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01-17-2008, 01:54 PM
  #41
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Hossa being scratched last night tells me that maybe Hossa's exemption is over. I don't think Renney would break up his most productive/cohesive line just to slot Hossa back. Maybe after the All-Star break, but certainly not before.

I love the energy and buzz this line is playing with right now; I just wish they saw the ice a bit more.
Unfortunately we are dealing w/ Tom Renney. He doesnt really do things that make sense that often. Other than that I agree with you.

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