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Old
01-25-2008, 09:29 AM
  #1
IknowHockey
 
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The time is NOW!

After watching what the Leafs brass did to the team I am left to wonder if JD is going to make the same mistakes. I mean sign guys to contracts then have them do nothing. Here is my breakdown.

Fwds have a couple of holes but not many. You have a pure scoring line (kariya,mcdonald,boyes) then you have a scoring/defensive type line with Tkachuk,Stempniak,Perron then you are left with basically the same types of players for the next two lines. Hard working, grind it out not very offensive forwards. You want names here you go. Backes, Mayers, Hinote, Johnson, McClement & King. If the fwds continue to play well like they have the Blues will need to realize where the problem is. DEFENSE or lack their off.

You have basically one guy on D who is playing better then everyone else on the team that has had years in the league. JOHNSON is a very good Dman only to get better. All the other D would be playing their way off any other team except the Blues. It's weird all the good teams bench players playing poorly for a few shifts. Then when they play their game is more solid because they don't want to feel that shame again. Well with the Blues it's like they applaud poor play. Barret Jackman and Eric Brewer have got to be the worst possible D in the league right now...Actually Wosniewski from the leafs is just a bad. Stupid penalties, stupid plays in your own end and just looking stupid while playing the game. Backman is young but doesn't have any confidence. McKee was good...key word was good...The years of injuries and the game has changed he should be moved to a contender where his abilities are overshadowed. Like Rivet from San Jose. Bryce Salvador I just don't get. In and out of the lineup, plays tough some games then looks just as bad as Jackman and Brewer.
There isn't any stand out D in the minors that is the "next big thing" he is playing already and his name is Erik Johnson. The system is their for them to use. Murray is a protect your end first coach. If you can't even do this then playing against teams such as San Josh will be like it was last night a complete joke.

They also need to have a proven NHL goalie for a backup. Toivonen hasn't been good at all this year. Even in practice he has no confidence, then again who would if you are sent up and down like pogo stick to the minors. There are plenty of NHL backups in the league that JD should go out and get because Manny can't carry the load the rest of the year.

Sorry just venting. Last nights game was tough to watch. Lots of speed and chances but nothing came of it.

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01-25-2008, 09:39 AM
  #2
WalterSobchak
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Toivonen hasn't been bouncing between the minors. I think he's had one conditioning stint down in the AHL. I don't know if he's played in a game since coming back up though.

I'm taking the rest with a grain of salt but it does make me think we do need to blow up our d-corps and pretty much start fresh.

at this point I'd rather have kids struggling to play defence than men struggling to play defence, but I am a throw them to the wolves type of teacher.

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01-25-2008, 09:42 AM
  #3
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While in Boston Toivonen experienced the same fate...Down to the minors for playing time then back up to the big leagues and get shelled when you do actually play. He came into that game against the Preds when Scott Nichols scored 2 shortys.

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01-25-2008, 09:59 AM
  #4
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Originally Posted by IknowHockey View Post
After watching what the Leafs brass did to the team I am left to wonder if JD is going to make the same mistakes.
I quit reading after the first sentence. To compare the two franchises and the directions their going is laughable

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01-25-2008, 10:03 AM
  #5
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Originally Posted by IknowHockey View Post
After watching what the Leafs brass did to the team I am left to wonder if JD is going to make the same mistakes. I mean sign guys to contracts then have them do nothing. Here is my breakdown.

Fwds have a couple of holes but not many. You have a pure scoring line (kariya,mcdonald,boyes) then you have a scoring/defensive type line with Tkachuk,Stempniak,Perron then you are left with basically the same types of players for the next two lines. Hard working, grind it out not very offensive forwards. You want names here you go. Backes, Mayers, Hinote, Johnson, McClement & King. If the fwds continue to play well like they have the Blues will need to realize where the problem is. DEFENSE or lack their off.

You have basically one guy on D who is playing better then everyone else on the team that has had years in the league. JOHNSON is a very good Dman only to get better. All the other D would be playing their way off any other team except the Blues. It's weird all the good teams bench players playing poorly for a few shifts. Then when they play their game is more solid because they don't want to feel that shame again. Well with the Blues it's like they applaud poor play. Barret Jackman and Eric Brewer have got to be the worst possible D in the league right now...Actually Wosniewski from the leafs is just a bad. Stupid penalties, stupid plays in your own end and just looking stupid while playing the game. Backman is young but doesn't have any confidence. McKee was good...key word was good...The years of injuries and the game has changed he should be moved to a contender where his abilities are overshadowed. Like Rivet from San Jose. Bryce Salvador I just don't get. In and out of the lineup, plays tough some games then looks just as bad as Jackman and Brewer.
There isn't any stand out D in the minors that is the "next big thing" he is playing already and his name is Erik Johnson. The system is their for them to use. Murray is a protect your end first coach. If you can't even do this then playing against teams such as San Josh will be like it was last night a complete joke.

They also need to have a proven NHL goalie for a backup. Toivonen hasn't been good at all this year. Even in practice he has no confidence, then again who would if you are sent up and down like pogo stick to the minors. There are plenty of NHL backups in the league that JD should go out and get because Manny can't carry the load the rest of the year.

Sorry just venting. Last nights game was tough to watch. Lots of speed and chances but nothing came of it.

Given your analysis of our defense, you should probably think about changing your name.

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01-25-2008, 10:04 AM
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I wouldn't expect you to understand what happened in Toronto. You aren't here. If you understood the hockey portion of it then you would understand.

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01-25-2008, 10:06 AM
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Right Checker that makes sense. Sorry that I hurt your feelings about your D. I guess you are a big Brewer and Jackman fan.

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01-25-2008, 10:09 AM
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I wouldn't expect you to understand what happened in Toronto. You aren't here. If you understood the hockey portion of it then you would understand.





Is this guy serious?

Brewer and Jackman not good enough to have roster spots on any other team in the league? Erik Johnson our only true defensman? This stuff is gold.

Brewer has been playing great hockey of late matched up against other team's top lines. He may not be a true #1, but he's good enough to be a 2nd paring guy anywhere. EJ has been darn good for a rookie this season and in a few games has been our best defender. For the season though? Not quite

Take your 26 posts and opinions based on...I have no clue and go back to Toronto.

BTW: Glad Backman gets written off as young, but Jackman and Brewer who are roughly the same age get buried.

Also...ever hear of Polak or Wagner? Didn't think so

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01-25-2008, 10:13 AM
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Please read carefully. Never said they couldn't play in the league. I said they are playing like the worst D in the league.

If you think Brewer is playing better hockey now, then Jackman must be playing worse. Ever since Brewer messed up his shoulder a few years back he hasn't been the same. We are talking about a guy who was on Team Canada. I'm not saying he doesn't have it in him, however something is missing from a few years back.

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01-25-2008, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by IknowHockey View Post
Ever since Brewer messed up his shoulder a few years back he hasn't been the same. We are talking about a guy who was on Team Canada. I'm not saying he doesn't have it in him, however something is missing from a few years back.
Don't bother trying to get that across to this guy. I have tried for a year.

And your right...he used to be great on Team Canada. And that is why Murray wanted him re-signed last spring. But the fact is, he is not that same player.

And that is why I wish Brewer's contract hadn't expired until this summer. Because I think Murray wouldn't be beggin JD to re-sign Brewer like he did last Jan and Feb.

Although it's hard to fault Murray when Brewer played so well under him in the World Championships. And Murray only had less than 2 months to coach Brewer this time last year before Management and Coaching deciding Brewer's future.

Yet people want to argue that Brewer is playing better than "average" dman in the league.

And some don't realize that Brewer is suppose to be a top 2 man for us HENCE his contract and his no trade clause.

Brewer was suppose to be our great guy on the point during the Power Play. He has been anything but that.

I doubt he will ever be the same player he use to be or "was" capable of being.


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01-25-2008, 10:23 AM
  #11
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Originally Posted by IknowHockey View Post
Please read carefully.
OK, I'll try.
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Originally Posted by IknowHockey View Post
Never said they couldn't play in the league. I said they are playing like the worst D in the league.
Well, you're still wrong. Brewer has made some stupid mistakes at times and has had some awful games but is still playing like a better than average defenseman. Ditto Jackman to a lesser extent. Neither may have lived up to their lofty expectations but neither have been poor overall

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If you think Brewer is playing better hockey now, then Jackman must be playing worse.
Logically this makes no sense and no meaning can be found in this. Therefore here's a smiley face

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Originally Posted by IknowHockey View Post
Ever since Brewer messed up his shoulder a few years back he hasn't been the same. We are talking about a guy who was on Team Canada. I'm not saying he doesn't have it in him, however something is missing from a few years back.

What he's missing is the Canadian hype train. He's still got flashes of brilliance. He still makes mistakes. He's still a good defenseman. Has he improved as projected? Maybe not. But it's not like he's gotten alot worse

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01-25-2008, 11:27 AM
  #12
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The problem with the blues defense is they are too slow and cant move the puck like they used to with pronger and mac innis. I agree that johnson is gonna be a good one but he is still learning. I am suprised that guys like salvador, jackman and walker are still playing while guys who can skate like wagner and woywitka toil in the minors
but, dont fret change is on the way the blues deal these guys away before the trade deadline for more picks to make room for the youngsters. I feel next year there will be massive in flux of youngsters and this bad yeam will only a bad memory
GO BLUES

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01-25-2008, 11:38 AM
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I wanted to take the OP seriously, but I just couldn't. Half of what he said is wrong and the other half is common knowledge that doesn't need to be re-hashed. Then he tells someone they don't understand the Leaf situation because they're "not here", yet we're supposed to believe he knows our team inside and out from Canada? I appreciate the effort OP, but next time post with your mind and not your heart, because your venting ruined what could have been semi-interesting.

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01-25-2008, 11:48 AM
  #14
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I know Hockey, at least over our six game losing streak is right. Our defense hasn't been anywhere near good with the exception of the vancouver games. The problem seems to be the judging of potential. EJ has been our best defender and he is only getting better. However our lack of offensive production from the point is inexcusable. Brewer and Jackman are potentially really good, but they haven't played up to their potential. However, this could be linked to the style of hockey and lack of adjustment Murray is/isnt making behind the bench.

I don't think it is solely the defenses fault for the lack of production. it could have something to do with the forwards inability to keep the puck in the offensive zone.(i.e. Dump and chase)

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01-25-2008, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by fan in oregon View Post
The problem with the blues defense is they are too slow and cant move the puck like they used to with pronger and mac innis. I agree that johnson is gonna be a good one but he is still learning. I am suprised that guys like salvador, jackman and walker are still playing while guys who can skate like wagner and woywitka toil in the minors
but, dont fret change is on the way the blues deal these guys away before the trade deadline for more picks to make room for the youngsters. I feel next year there will be massive in flux of youngsters and this bad yeam will only a bad memory
GO BLUES
I tend to agree with you that our D as currently constructed is below average when it comes to moving/passing the puck out of the zone and setting up the transition game. I too would like to see Wagner called back up because I thought he was solid in this department.

However, I DO NOT consider this a bad team or these being bad memories; just the opposite actually. While the early part of this season may have established some unfair expectations, not even the most pessimistic Blues fan can call this a bad year or ignore the potential of this franchise going fwd. If we do not make the playoffs, there will be disappointment, sure, but I think most fans if they're honest with themselves, will agree that we are progressing through this rebuild quicker than ever imagined.

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01-25-2008, 03:14 PM
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I tend to agree with you that our D as currently constructed is below average when it comes to moving/passing the puck out of the zone and setting up the transition game. I too would like to see Wagner called back up because I thought he was solid in this department.

However, I DO NOT consider this a bad team or these being bad memories; just the opposite actually. While the early part of this season may have established some unfair expectations, not even the most pessimistic Blues fan can call this a bad year or ignore the potential of this franchise going fwd. If we do not make the playoffs, there will be disappointment, sure, but I think most fans if they're honest with themselves, will agree that we are progressing through this rebuild quicker than ever imagined.


Well said.

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01-25-2008, 03:18 PM
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IKH, that's a bit of an over-reaction.
IMO, THE problem with this team, and it will always reflect on the D, is that there is absolutely NO transition game. We have nobody on the backline that can carry the puck out of our zone and into the enemys. We have plenty of guys that are decent passers, but once evry team in the league figured us out and prepared for the outlet pass in the neutral zone, guess what happened. This fact will make a lot of decent defencemen look bad. Brewer and Bax should be able to rag, but for whatever reason, they haven't much. The predictability of our break-outs would be laughable if it didn't hurt so much. We need to clear a few roster spaces and let someone else see if they can mobilize the fleet.

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01-25-2008, 04:08 PM
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I gotta say I love the potential the team has at this point, but we need some additional scoring punch from the forwards.

Boyes is playing the best hockey of his short career, we are finally seeing the potential he has as a genuine scoring forward, after years of being the setup man, we see he has a great sense of where to be positioned to score.

but after him, who do we have that can score? Kariya is doing well, but I think we can all agree we need more goals from him. For the money he is making, we need atleast 30 goals from him this season, but we'd be lucky to get 20. We need to get Perron some more PP time and an attitude ajustment, and he could be great, like P.Bergeron in Boston.

Main problem, more goals. You can't expect Manny to play out of his skin for 82 games, he needs a few games with 4-5 goals so he can relief some pressure.

2nd problem - the D-Men.

This is how I would arrange the play of the D this year:

1 - Johnson - above expectations, but needs to look for better options on the Powerplay. You havn't proven you have the shot to warrant taking the blast 9/10 times.
2 - Mckee - Was so good for Buffalo I was pumped to get him, but he isn't as solid as years ago. Still playing good hockey, but no longer a top 2 D.
3 - Jackman - nice guy, gritty player, but I think we have seen the best from him. Needs to throw his body around even more to be effective again.
4 - Salvador - A non player for me - Casper - never notice him do anything good or bad.
5 - Backman - classic 5/6 D, just trying to avoid mistakes - but he can't....terrible
6 - Brewer - Weak on the boards, weak on the puck, strong on the paycheck. He is in the same class as McCabe - one dimentional player who never reached the hights we thought he would. He has played better then some D higher on my list, but considering his paycheck and the role they need him to play, he is the most disapointing.

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01-25-2008, 04:15 PM
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4 - Salvador - A non player for me - Casper - never notice him do anything good or bad.

I was respecting your analysis until this point. Salvy has been the most consistant, best defenseman the team has had all year.

He certainly doesn't fade into the background.


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01-25-2008, 04:34 PM
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I was respecting your analysis until this point. Salvy has been the most consistant, best defenseman the team has had all year.

He certainly doesn't fade into the background.

My problem with Bryce is, while playing good (not great) in his own zone, he does next to nothing in the other two zones of the ice. Yes, sure he has had a teaser rush/goal here or there, but, in reality, he is a depth guy on a good team.

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01-25-2008, 04:34 PM
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buddy, being a defenceman, that is one of the best compliments you can get. a defenceman that isn't noticed is usually mistake free and thats all that really matters especially from a 5/6 dman

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01-25-2008, 04:35 PM
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buddy, being a defenceman, that is one of the best compliments you can get. a defenceman that isn't noticed is usually mistake free and thats all that really matters especially from a 5/6 dman
I agree, having played D myself.

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01-25-2008, 04:38 PM
  #23
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I agree, having played D myself.
Me too. I think thats right on.

And again he doesn't do much outside his own end. Thats the main problem with the d. They don't do much outside our own end.

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01-25-2008, 04:48 PM
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Me too. I think thats right on.

And again he doesn't do much outside his own end. Thats the main problem with the d. They don't do much outside our own end.
Me three. Sal's level of play and his contract are in good harmony, especially when compared to the others. He's not here to provide O from the blue line, that is supposed to be taken care of by Backs, Brew, and to a lesser extent, Jacks and McKee.

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01-25-2008, 04:56 PM
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My point exactly. Salvy is not supposed to be an offensive d-man.

You don't put 6 offensive defensemen out there....you need "stay at home" guys. Bryce is just that.

The problem with the Blues is the lack of (expected) production from the guys who should be offensive d-men. You can't lay that at Salvy's feet. It's not his role, it's not his fault.

I really want him resigned. I want Jax/Bax gone and Polak/Woywitka/Wagner coming in to replace Jax/Bax/Walker.

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