HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Edmonton Oilers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Sniping forward question

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-14-2004, 03:05 AM
  #1
LoudmouthHemskyfan#1
Registered User
 
LoudmouthHemskyfan#1's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: E-town
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,645
vCash: 500
Sniping forward question

Okay, here's the proposition:

We can get an elite young goal-scoring winger or center, but it's gonna cost us either Mike York or Ryan Smyth, would you do it?

(I think you can place the names I'm thinking of)

LoudmouthHemskyfan#1 is offline  
Old
04-14-2004, 06:41 AM
  #2
Allan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Edmonton
Country: United Nations
Posts: 1,405
vCash: 500
It depends on the names. There are a couple who I would be encouraging the deal to be made for, but not too many.

Allan is offline  
Old
04-14-2004, 07:49 AM
  #3
H-Bear
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: North Bay ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,503
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoudmouthHemskyfan#1
Okay, here's the proposition:

We can get an elite young goal-scoring winger or center, but it's gonna cost us either Mike York or Ryan Smyth, would you do it?

(I think you can place the names I'm thinking of)
Damn straight I would.

Spezza would be well worth either of those two guys. We would probably have to part with quite a lot, but one of those two guys (Smyth/York) would be a very tempting start for a team who lacks true quality on the LW. My guess would be that Smyth would probably interest them more. My offer would be along the lines of:

To OTT: Smyth, Laraque, 1st (whichever one it takes ... hell, even both if need be).
To EDM: Spezza, Neil.

H-Bear is offline  
Old
04-14-2004, 08:12 AM
  #4
The Imp
Registered User
 
The Imp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Country: Denmark
Posts: 3,392
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by H-Bear
Damn straight I would.

Spezza would be well worth either of those two guys. We would probably have to part with quite a lot, but one of those two guys (Smyth/York) would be a very tempting start for a team who lacks true quality on the LW. My guess would be that Smyth would probably interest them more. My offer would be along the lines of:

To OTT: Smyth, Laraque, 1st (whichever one it takes ... hell, even both if need be).
To EDM: Spezza, Neil.
Problem is; Spezza will play 1st or 2nd center - and thus he'll almost certainly meet his bonus requirements. That puts a dent in the salary budget - say, a Nedved sized dent, imo. I firmly believe that the best option is to go for a two year contract for Nedved.

The Imp is offline  
Old
04-14-2004, 08:31 AM
  #5
H-Bear
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: North Bay ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,503
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by petelars
Problem is; Spezza will play 1st or 2nd center - and thus he'll almost certainly meet his bonus requirements. That puts a dent in the salary budget - say, a Nedved sized dent, imo. I firmly believe that the best option is to go for a two year contract for Nedved.
You are also forgetting we are shipping out Smyth ($3,450,000) and Laraque ($1,275,000) in the deal. That should be more than enough to pay for his bonuses.

H-Bear is offline  
Old
04-14-2004, 08:36 AM
  #6
kyle
Registered User
 
kyle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 636
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by petelars
Problem is; Spezza will play 1st or 2nd center - and thus he'll almost certainly meet his bonus requirements. That puts a dent in the salary budget - say, a Nedved sized dent, imo. I firmly believe that the best option is to go for a two year contract for Nedved.
.. we can't be a team that tricks players into playing for peanuts.

You have to pay to get that kind of skill. Spezza is an amazingly skilled player and if we can't afford to pay him (post-CBA) then we can't last in this league.

kyle is offline  
Old
04-14-2004, 01:35 PM
  #7
mrush
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 219
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyle
.. we can't be a team that tricks players into playing for peanuts.

You have to pay to get that kind of skill. Spezza is an amazingly skilled player and if we can't afford to pay him (post-CBA) then we can't last in this league.
i would even give staios away with smyth and laraque and horcoff to get spezza. I would overpay because spezza is that good. Also smyth has to be gone within 2years because what is Lowe going to do with the LW. We have so many lw's wanting to play but no room. with Smyth, Moreau, Torres (most likely being the lock for 3lw's) also (not sure if this information is correct) with Rita having to clear waivers if he gets sent to the AHL next year will most likely make Lowe either sign him to one way contract or trade him but Lowe said he wants him to stay. That means 4Lw's with a lot more going on in traning camp.

I rather have Lowe trade smyth than any of the youth because he wants to make room for Smyth when he doesnt show up till the last 30games of the season.

Lowe should trade smyth+laraque+philly's 1st round and maybe a defensemen to move up in the draft or get a proven sniper.

We maybe overpaying and it be good if Lowe could keep a pick but im sure he would need ot give a pick to move up. This clears 5million in salary and we could use it to good use instead of spending it on Oates.

Just my two cents.

mrush is offline  
Old
04-14-2004, 01:50 PM
  #8
Mizral
Registered User
 
Mizral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Earth, MW
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,119
vCash: 500
Spezza made around $3.25 million this year.

Spezza and other such youngtsers are pretty well not going to be traded under any circumstances.

However, if you look one step down from then, I think you'll see that there is much more available.

Guys like Martin Havlat, Jeff O'Neill, Richard Zednik, etc.. could certainly be dealt for guys like York or Smyth.

Look even one more step down, is where I think the Oilers ought to be looking. Guys like Zubrus, Pyatt, Parrish.. these guys could be traded, and are either okay goal scorers already, or could be much better down the road. Won't cost nearly as much, and could really give you guys a potential star player down the road.

Mizral is offline  
Old
04-14-2004, 01:55 PM
  #9
H-Bear
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: North Bay ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,503
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Spezza made around $3.25 million this year.

Spezza and other such youngtsers are pretty well not going to be traded under any circumstances.

However, if you look one step down from then, I think you'll see that there is much more available.

Guys like Martin Havlat, Jeff O'Neill, Richard Zednik, etc.. could certainly be dealt for guys like York or Smyth.

Look even one more step down, is where I think the Oilers ought to be looking. Guys like Zubrus, Pyatt, Parrish.. these guys could be traded, and are either okay goal scorers already, or could be much better down the road. Won't cost nearly as much, and could really give you guys a potential star player down the road.
Well, the thread starter (and it's common knowledge that the Oilers) is looking for a centreman. You have listed 6 wingers.

H-Bear is offline  
Old
04-14-2004, 02:01 PM
  #10
barto
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 2,465
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Spezza made around $3.25 million this year.

Spezza and other such youngtsers are pretty well not going to be traded under any circumstances.

However, if you look one step down from then, I think you'll see that there is much more available.

Guys like Martin Havlat, Jeff O'Neill, Richard Zednik, etc.. could certainly be dealt for guys like York or Smyth.
I think most people would like to have a guy like Havlat. But if Lowe is looking at 3-5 years down the road to contend for the Cup, would some of those guys still be in their prime to help the Oilers make it all the way? I haven't looked up their ages, just wondering. That's maybe why Smyth would get traded at some point, although I don't expect it for 2-3 years yet, around the end of his current contract. And then see what the hockey landscape's like.
Quote:

Look even one more step down, is where I think the Oilers ought to be looking. Guys like Zubrus, Pyatt, Parrish.. these guys could be traded, and are either okay goal scorers already, or could be much better down the road. Won't cost nearly as much, and could really give you guys a potential star player down the road.
Except that most Oilers fans are SICK TO DEATH (see guy throwing up: ) of "potential". We've now had a taste of "proven" with Nedved, and it's MUCH better... -drool- So sure, those guys COULD give us a star player, or they could just be bums that never realize their full potential. Still a bit of a risk there.

Bart
(Geez, did Spezza REALLY make $3.25M this year? )

barto is offline  
Old
04-14-2004, 02:23 PM
  #11
Walsher
Registered User
 
Walsher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 5,339
vCash: 500
I wouldn't doubt Spezza is moveable. Ottawa is jerking this guy around worse than ever now. I like the handling of him when he got the seasoning in the minors, but come on he is one o the teams best players and was healthy scratched in the first couple games? Seriously Vermette is average at best and you have a 55 pt guy sitting in the pressbox. I think Spezza will tire of this act soon and it is reasonable to assume he may be dealt from what I have read/seen. Smyth for Spezza would be ideal.

Walsher is offline  
Old
04-14-2004, 03:06 PM
  #12
barto
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 2,465
vCash: 500
But Spezza's also a local hero, so the fans would have to see it as a huge overpay (by the other team) not to be really upset by trading him away. And I don't think Muckler is ready to give up on him yet, either...so about the only way Spezza can force a trade is to sit out, not report to camp, etc. - do we want a guy like that (back) on the roster here??

I dunno - it seems *highly* unlikely Spezza will be moved in the off-season, but I guess we'll see.

Bart

barto is offline  
Old
04-14-2004, 03:54 PM
  #13
LoudmouthHemskyfan#1
Registered User
 
LoudmouthHemskyfan#1's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: E-town
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,645
vCash: 500
I wasn't thinking of the type of guys Mizral mentioned. Not worth what I'd give up or fitting the hole I want plugged.

I'm personally always looking to acquire certain guys, one of them being Marian Gaborik, and yes I know the likelihood of him being moved blah blah blah, but for the right price anyone can be had.

Spezza of course would be a great grab, but he's Ottawa's future and a decent part of their present, not as optimistic there.

I woulda tried to get a Tampa guy or two, but we all know that's probably next to impossible now, we blew our chance early this year and last year to pick up some pieces that were building into an elite team.

I wouldn't mind at all picking up Mark Parrish, I strongly advocated it before he caught fire, but that's a smaller deal that I feel needs to be made IN ADDITION TO, not as a replacement for.

LoudmouthHemskyfan#1 is offline  
Old
04-14-2004, 04:09 PM
  #14
Master Lok
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 6,658
vCash: 500
Unforunately, LMHF, players like Gaborik are untouchables. For Minnesota, Gaborik is the only up and coming superstar on that team. The Wild would not be interested in Smyth or Smith as they're looking at building for the future. We're talking about 1st round pick (14), Torres, AND Hemsky for Gaborik. Is that even enough? Lastly Gaborik plays RW. We already have Dvorak, Hemsky in the top two positions. The Oilers need a First Line CENTRE.

During the season, a lot of posters blamed Lowe for poor use of assets in Marchant, Weight etc. Overpaying for Spezza or Gaborik is much in the same vein - poor asset management. What might be better is trading for a potential #1 centre who is trapped behind in a numbers game. Much like Noronen is trapped behind Biron and Miller. Mr. Mackey suggested Jeff Taffe of Phoenix and I think its a credible suggestion. Taffe is behind Langkow and Comrie currently at centre. He is a talented #2 centreman who is highly touted. He would come much MUCH cheaper than Gaborik or Spezza. Maybe Jamie Lundmark could be picked up for a cheap pick. The price would be higher, but Florida's Stephen Weiss would be nice.

Master Lok is offline  
Old
04-14-2004, 04:24 PM
  #15
Boondock Saint
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,659
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoudmouthHemskyfan#1
I'm personally always looking to acquire certain guys, one of them being Marian Gaborik, and yes I know the likelihood of him being moved blah blah blah, but for the right price anyone can be had.
A couple other contributing factors to a deal of this magnitude not happening:

1. As has been pointed out, Gaborik is the backbone of the team Minny is trying to build.

2. With the new CBA agreement uncertain, GM's will be very hesitant to give up CHEAP young talent. It would be a lot easier to make a move if we would be picking up some salary.

3. Goes against KLo's past transactions. Kevin is a very business savvy, buy-low, sell-high type manager. I don't see him breaking the bank for someone who's value is sky-high, like Gaborik. Very poor asset management.

Boondock Saint is offline  
Old
04-14-2004, 04:35 PM
  #16
TheChase
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Saskatoon
Posts: 873
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walsher
I wouldn't doubt Spezza is moveable. Ottawa is jerking this guy around worse than ever now. I like the handling of him when he got the seasoning in the minors, but come on he is one o the teams best players and was healthy scratched in the first couple games? Seriously Vermette is average at best and you have a 55 pt guy sitting in the pressbox. I think Spezza will tire of this act soon and it is reasonable to assume he may be dealt from what I have read/seen. Smyth for Spezza would be ideal.
I wouldn't object too strongly to a Smyth & Laraque for Spezza trade. Torres could develop into the role (front of net work) that Smyth provides the Oil. Mind you, Its still a tough call though because Smyth took a reduced contract to stay in Edmonton. As well BG and Ryan's heart is in playing for the Oil.


Last edited by TheChase: 04-14-2004 at 07:37 PM.
TheChase is offline  
Old
04-14-2004, 04:51 PM
  #17
LoudmouthHemskyfan#1
Registered User
 
LoudmouthHemskyfan#1's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: E-town
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,645
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by neogeo69
Unforunately, LMHF, players like Gaborik are untouchables. For Minnesota, Gaborik is the only up and coming superstar on that team. The Wild would not be interested in Smyth or Smith as they're looking at building for the future. We're talking about 1st round pick (14), Torres, AND Hemsky for Gaborik. Is that even enough? Lastly Gaborik plays RW. We already have Dvorak, Hemsky in the top two positions. The Oilers need a First Line CENTRE.

During the season, a lot of posters blamed Lowe for poor use of assets in Marchant, Weight etc. Overpaying for Spezza or Gaborik is much in the same vein - poor asset management. What might be better is trading for a potential #1 centre who is trapped behind in a numbers game. Much like Noronen is trapped behind Biron and Miller. Mr. Mackey suggested Jeff Taffe of Phoenix and I think its a credible suggestion. Taffe is behind Langkow and Comrie currently at centre. He is a talented #2 centreman who is highly touted. He would come much MUCH cheaper than Gaborik or Spezza. Maybe Jamie Lundmark could be picked up for a cheap pick. The price would be higher, but Florida's Stephen Weiss would be nice.
I acknowledge it's pie-in-the-sky, but I honestly don't know, especially if the Oilers could move up in the draft then move that pick in that kinda deal. And Lou runs that team how he wants, he's lucky he has Doug Risebrough (who should be our GM) to keep him sane, but Lou doesn't seem to like Gabs at all. Make a big offer while it's even remotely possible with Gaborik coming off a deflated year.

A couple other things:

Our wingers, if groomed propoerly from training camp as they should be, should be able to play either wing, especially the top guys. In my starting lineup I envision Hemsky on the LW, he fits there better in my mind.

Eventually, I see Hemsky becoming that center. He already gets stuck playing the centre's d-coverage in his own zone because of his linemates, and reads the game like a center. Also has the skill to do it. He's our future first line center to me, a couple years down the road. Again, I see the need for a Vermette or a Taffe IN ADDITION TO whoever I'm getting at wing. Nedved can't play forever of course, and almost becomes expendable this way. We could grab an elite player outside of a trade as a signing, or a puck-moving #2 d-man. Ideally we're not only one move from a complete 3 offensive line forward line-up, we're two moves.

I don't see it as bad asset management at all, because you then have excess assets that can be moved if so desired to improve other areas. Good teams have 15 good NHL forwards often times. I'd rather overpay for a #1 winger who has 10 good years ahead of him at least, then gamble on a possible 1/2 center, if those were my choices.

Of course it all depends on the big picture, not just the one deal. Anything that creates flexibility is valuable, but only if that flexibility is used.

LoudmouthHemskyfan#1 is offline  
Old
04-14-2004, 06:02 PM
  #18
YKOil
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,232
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boondock Saint
2. With the new CBA agreement uncertain, GM's will be very hesitant to give up CHEAP young talent. It would be a lot easier to make a move if we would be picking up some salary.

3. Goes against KLo's past transactions. Kevin is a very business savvy, buy-low, sell-high type manager. I don't see him breaking the bank for someone who's value is sky-high, like Gaborik. Very poor asset management.
I don't buy the comparison of Lowe to a business savvy manager as he has just as many stinkers as he does winners - sometime even within the same deals (for every Torres there is an Isbister and for every Hamrlik there is a Green). The Weight trade will always resonate with me as being a horrendous trade (Horacek.... )

As far as trades go I see Lowe as being a single step above average, which isn't the type of guy who makes GOOD traders like Burke, and even Sather still, lose sleep at night.

I do, however, have a lot of empathy for your second point on picking up salary. While I do hope that Lowe signs Nedved, I also hope that he keeps some money in the kitty for trades.

i.e. If: Chimera, 14th & payment of Chimera's salary OR picking up some expensive guy for a year got us a substantial move up in the draft I would jump at it.

Let's face it - as much as I have argued for picking up a solid d-man or goalie in the draft - if I am Lowe and I think Picard is the sniper I need and I need to pick-him up in the 7 - 10 range then maybe a million dollars is a small price to pay.


YKOil

YKOil is offline  
Old
04-14-2004, 06:17 PM
  #19
Boondock Saint
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,659
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by YKOil
I don't buy the comparison of Lowe to a business savvy manager as he has just as many stinkers as he does winners - sometime even within the same deals (for every Torres there is an Isbister and for every Hamrlik there is a Green). The Weight trade will always resonate with me as being a horrendous trade (Horacek.... )
With a buy-low strategy, there is always risk involved. If there was no risk, the player wouldn't have a lower value. I didn't say he was Kreskin, I said he was business savvy. Not every gamble he makes is gonna pay off as he had hoped, but that's the kind of manager he is.

You must remember, he is trading people, not computers, or rocks, or hockey cards. And people are unpredictable. You will never be 100% in his job, and if you are, I'd say you're being way too cautious.

Boondock Saint is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:10 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.