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OT - Rangers to Retire Adam Graves' Number

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Old
01-25-2008, 12:21 AM
  #26
Vlad The Impaler
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Originally Posted by Hackett View Post
graves was a very good player.... and you can easily make a case for retiring his number... I just wish the standards were a bit higher though.
Yeah, I have mixed feelings about this. There was a thread recently about a possible Koivu jersey retirement. There were lots of pros and cons but I kept wondering what this league will be like if we apply the standards of past decades.

The last real dynasties were in the 70s/early 80s.

With scoring down, numerous rule changes, expansions and a CBA that encourages player mouvement, it's going to be tough to keep the same standards.

I don't want to downplay what players of yesterday achieved and I don't want to downplay what players can currently achieve. This leaves all sorts of very difficult question. An easy example is Henri Richard. How many rings today would be a comparable achievement to his 11? Would the number still be 11? Or 8? 6? 4? To that I have no answer and I am sure everybody will have his personal take on that.

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01-25-2008, 05:03 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Hackett View Post
while that is great and all... I dont think that should be part of the criteria for retiring numbers.

Koivu is also known for being community oriented... he's done wonders in montreal especially in the field of cancer treatment and fundraising for expensive equipment etc.... but I dont think that should merit retiring a number.

If a player does great things in the community and needs to be recognized, then honour him in a community setting.
Not every team is going to have the same criteria.

The Rangers feel that what Graves has done for theri organization on and off the ice merit the honour, I agree with them.

My beef with the Rangers is that theres alot more to the teams History than just 1994 and other players that also deserve the honour of having their jersey's raised as well and they have not done right by those players. That is a shame.

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01-25-2008, 10:26 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Not every team is going to have the same criteria.

The Rangers feel that what Graves has done for theri organization on and off the ice merit the honour, I agree with them.

My beef with the Rangers is that theres alot more to the teams History than just 1994 and other players that also deserve the honour of having their jersey's raised as well and they have not done right by those players. That is a shame.
Off the ice service should receive due recognition but I still can't see how it should be a factor in retiring a hockey jersey number. To take things to an extreme, Brian Mullen played 4 good years with the Rangers and I'd venture to say that his contributions to the inner city New York youth (especially the Hell's Kitchen area) are at least as tangible as Graves' charity contributions. His career numbers are also fairly similar to those of Graves and he played a shorter career. Is Brian Mullen's jersey number to be considered for retirement? Of course not, I'm being facetious. I'm just highlighting how subjective off-ice contributions might be.

Then again the Rangers can retire numbers they see fit. Although if the Habs were to retire Russ Courtnall's jersery number (744 career points) over Jacques Lemaire's, legions of fans would be up in arms. Where are the Andy Bathgate supporters?

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01-25-2008, 10:50 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by 24Cups View Post
On a night when the Rangers sent Brian Leech's number to the rafters they announced that Adam Graves' number will be retired next season. He had 329 goals and 289 assists over a 17 year career. I don't see Graves' career as number retirement worthy. Especially with the likes of Brad Park, Jean Ratelle, and Andy Bathgate not receiving this honor. Even long time Ranger defenseman Ron Greshner had 610 points in almost 1,000 games with the team.


http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story/?ID...33&hubname=nhl
Agreed. I'd expect Park, Ratelle and Bathgate before Graves. Whatever floats their boat I guess.

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01-25-2008, 02:55 PM
  #30
Lafleurs Guy
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Graves just isn't the kind of guy that I'd expect for this. He was a solid hockey player and did a lot for the community but there are lots of good players out there who were good people. Adam Graves just isn't the kind of player that warrants a jersey retirement. Its like retiring Ryan Walter or Joel Otto's jersey. Good players for sure... but not great.

I'm sure 10 years from now people are going to be looking up at the rafters and seeing Messier and Richter's jersey and then asking "what the hell is Graves doing up there?"

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01-25-2008, 03:10 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Not every team is going to have the same criteria.

The Rangers feel that what Graves has done for theri organization on and off the ice merit the honour, I agree with them.


My beef with the Rangers is that theres alot more to the teams History than just 1994 and other players that also deserve the honour of having their jersey's raised as well and they have not done right by those players. That is a shame.
I think this is something that fans should keep in mind, each organization sets the parameters for acknowledging the contributions of their respective players. It's grossly unfair to the Rangers and Graves to bring up the name of Henri Richard as an example of why Adam should not be honoured.

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01-25-2008, 03:23 PM
  #32
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by habfan4 View Post
I think this is something that fans should keep in mind, each organization sets the parameters for acknowledging the contributions of their respective players. It's grossly unfair to the Rangers and Graves to bring up the name of Henri Richard as an example of why Adam should not be honoured.
Fair enough. But its not unfair to use Jean Ratelle as an example of a guy who should get first dibs.

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01-25-2008, 03:31 PM
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Are the Rangers retired numbers still useable like the Leafs? Or are they off limits like the Habs?

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01-25-2008, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by le_sean View Post
Are the Rangers retired numbers still useable like the Leafs? Or are they off limits like the Habs?
They are off limits like every other teams' except for Toronto. Toronto is the only team that has that selective mini-Hall of Fame where guys numbers are honored but not banned from being used by current players.

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01-25-2008, 03:34 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Fair enough. But its not unfair to use Jean Ratelle as an example of a guy who should get first dibs.
I didn't say that the system/parameters set by the teams were correct only that you can't compare the criterion set by one team to another.

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01-25-2008, 03:47 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by NYR94 View Post
They are off limits like every other teams' except for Toronto. Toronto is the only team that has that selective mini-Hall of Fame where guys numbers are honored but not banned from being used by current players.
Ok I didn't realize that the Leafs were the only team who did that. Thought they had more class than that.

IMO it's a disgrace that Andrew Raycroft can wear Johnny Bower's number. But that's just me.

The Rangers should really retire Bathgate at the same time Graves is retired, kind of like Cournoyer/Moore.

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01-25-2008, 04:20 PM
  #37
Stanley Foobrick
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Originally Posted by Hackett View Post
while that is great and all... I dont think that should be part of the criteria for retiring numbers.

..... and when you purchase and run your own NHL team you can decide how and why a number should be retired.

The number of players that did as much for childrens charities and such off ice, silently and without fanfare, can be counted on one hand. Your certainly entitled to your opinion if this a reason to retire a number, but I think you can understand where the team is coming from.

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01-25-2008, 04:24 PM
  #38
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by Blue'sClues View Post
..... and when you purchase and run your own NHL team you can decide how and why a number should be retired.

The number of players that did as much for childrens charities and such off ice, silently and without fanfare, can be counted on one hand. Your certainly entitled to your opinion if this a reason to retire a number, but I think you can understand where the team is coming from.
I don't even think that's true. Tons of guys do off ice charity work. I'm not saying Graves isn't a nice guy but there are more deserving Rangers who should be way ahead of him and its strange that they're even retiring his number at all.

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01-25-2008, 05:40 PM
  #39
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I agree I never saw Adam Graves as a number retirement guy at all... He isn't even a HOFer in my books....

I see number retirement the same way the Habs franchise has approached it, number retirement is reserved for guys who transcend the franchise.... your "average Hockey Hall of Famer" doesn't get his number retired, as Montreal has plenty of Hall of Fame players whose numbers are not retired. On the other hand, a player who transcends the team, and is the face of the franchise, and one of the all-time greats gets his number up in the rafters ie Richard, Morenz, Lafleur, Beliveau, Robinson, guys who can make the case for being in the top 10 ever at their position. You can make that case for Leetch and Messier, you'd be laughed at for trying to make that case with Graves.

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01-25-2008, 06:52 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I don't even think that's true. Tons of guys do off ice charity work. I'm not saying Graves isn't a nice guy but there are more deserving Rangers who should be way ahead of him and its strange that they're even retiring his number at all.
I remember hearing about Graves back as a young player about his community and social commitment. In terms of how he chooses to spend his time, he seems Beliveau like and I don't throw that term around lightly.

As a player, he was very good. He had a quick dropoff to his career and I don't see him as a hof-er, but like hf4 said, the Rangers don't have to justify their criteria. They feel the guy wore their jersey with extraordinary honor, and they choose to acknowledge it.

I do suspect that they're marketing 94 very actively though and if in fact some of the old timers were never honored, that's a shame. You can't decide to honor one generation while ignoring another. If in fact the Andy Bathgate's of the past haven't been honored.

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01-25-2008, 08:32 PM
  #41
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Surely people within the organization know better than random Internet slobs at a keyboard who *deserves* that special honor. They felt strongly that Graves represented everything a New York Ranger should be and that his number should be up there. Who are we to argue with them?

I was so, so pleased when the Islanders put #23 Nystrom up in Nassau. He was nowhere close to elite level that Bossy, Smith, Potvin and Trottier played at, but there is no denying the impact he had. To me, Graves is the same kind of story. And anyone who calls himself a hockey fan would be crazy to question the honoring of a warrior like that.

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01-25-2008, 09:26 PM
  #42
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
I remember hearing about Graves back as a young player about his community and social commitment. In terms of how he chooses to spend his time, he seems Beliveau like and I don't throw that term around lightly.

As a player, he was very good. He had a quick dropoff to his career and I don't see him as a hof-er, but like hf4 said, the Rangers don't have to justify their criteria. They feel the guy wore their jersey with extraordinary honor, and they choose to acknowledge it.

I do suspect that they're marketing 94 very actively though and if in fact some of the old timers were never honored, that's a shame. You can't decide to honor one generation while ignoring another. If in fact the Andy Bathgate's of the past haven't been honored.
I think its more of a marketing thing than anything else too. And I don't see how they honour Graves and not some of the older guys who are in the Hall of Fame.

I'm not saying Graves wasn't a nice guy or that he wasn't a solid hockey player, there are just more deserving guys out there.

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01-26-2008, 11:04 AM
  #43
Stanley Foobrick
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I don't even think that's true. Tons of guys do off ice charity work. I'm not saying Graves isn't a nice guy but there are more deserving Rangers who should be way ahead of him and its strange that they're even retiring his number at all.
If you don't think that my statement is true, then my I suggest that you really don't know much about Adam at all.

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01-26-2008, 11:08 AM
  #44
Ross MacLochness
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Adam Graves is a beauty.

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01-26-2008, 11:42 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by CHareth View Post
Surely people within the organization know better than random Internet slobs at a keyboard who *deserves* that special honor. They felt strongly that Graves represented everything a New York Ranger should be and that his number should be up there. Who are we to argue with them?

I was so, so pleased when the Islanders put #23 Nystrom up in Nassau. He was nowhere close to elite level that Bossy, Smith, Potvin and Trottier played at, but there is no denying the impact he had. To me, Graves is the same kind of story. And anyone who calls himself a hockey fan would be crazy to question the honoring of a warrior like that.
I agree completely with this. He's just one of those guys that everyone loves and although he wasn't the most talented player by any means, he was still very good at what he did. The Rangers simply felt it was an appropriate way to honour their player and, honestly, it doesn't have any ramifications on the other teams.

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01-27-2008, 10:58 PM
  #46
Lafleurs Guy
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If you don't think that my statement is true, then my I suggest that you really don't know much about Adam at all.
I didn't disagree with you on his charity work. But there are tons of guys who do this. Should they all get their jersey's retired?

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