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Should first european to captain his team to Stanley Cup get HHOF consideration?

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02-21-2008, 02:20 AM
  #1
Noldo
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Should first european to captain his team to Stanley Cup get HHOF consideration?

The notion "Soft europeans that choke in the playoffs" has reached almost mythical proportions. But fact remains that so far no european captain has lead his team to Stanley Cup.

Sooner or later that ceiling will be broken.

Is that an achievement that in itself give reason to consider that captain HHOF worthy?

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02-21-2008, 02:33 AM
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Sens Rule
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Obviously not... The first Euro to Captian his team to a Cup could be Koivu... is he a HHOfer? No... not close but a great player nonetheless regardless of winning the Cup or not. If Lidstrom Captains a Cup team it is irrelevant as he was a HHOFer years ago... same with Jagr. If Sundin did this year he is definately in becuase the Leafs are bad this year and if they win it is HUGE on the Captain... but Sundin likely is already in regardless. Alfredsson is close to the HHOF if he follows up last years amazing playoff with a Cup win this year... but it is not very pertanient that he is a Euro. Capatian a team to the Cup it is great on your Resume... Euro or not. The Euro aspect I disregard. In 2008 we are far beyond stereotypical attitiudes about NHL players based on Nationalities.

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02-21-2008, 04:42 AM
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It should improve their credentials, but not an instant admittance.

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02-21-2008, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cup 2008 Sens Rule View Post
Obviously not... The first Euro to Captian his team to a Cup could be Koivu... is he a HHOfer? No... not close but a great player nonetheless regardless of winning the Cup or not. If Lidstrom Captains a Cup team it is irrelevant as he was a HHOFer years ago... same with Jagr. If Sundin did this year he is definately in becuase the Leafs are bad this year and if they win it is HUGE on the Captain... but Sundin likely is already in regardless. Alfredsson is close to the HHOF if he follows up last years amazing playoff with a Cup win this year... but it is not very pertanient that he is a Euro. Capatian a team to the Cup it is great on your Resume... Euro or not. The Euro aspect I disregard. In 2008 we are far beyond stereotypical attitiudes about NHL players based on Nationalities.
It could be clincher for Alfreddson, but that's it. I don't think he's in without it.

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02-21-2008, 07:33 AM
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I would agree with the overwhelming majority so far: the action itself should be sufficient to get player inducted.

However, should the fact that player is the first european to captain team to cup still be given special value? I mean, is it greater merit than just being captain of cup winning team?

How much importance that single achievement could get? I would not be surprised if the first european captain would add Conn Smythe to his award collection the year it happens (especially considering the most probable current players that could be the first).

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02-21-2008, 08:34 AM
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Nhl's been around for what, 100 years now? And it had the first real Euro captain 15 years ago or so? Kind of uneven to even compare wouldn't you say? Tell you what: Let's make all Euros in nhl captains for their respective teams for some 100 years too ok? Maybe that'll shut up the ignorant fools already.

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02-21-2008, 08:35 AM
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If Chara somehow led the Bruins to the Stanley Cup, I would probably be more inclined to nominate him for sainthood on the basis on performing a miracle rather than the HHOF.

But the first Euro captain to win the Cup will probably be a HHOF anyway, regardless....

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02-21-2008, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by bruins309 View Post
If Chara somehow led the Bruins to the Stanley Cup, I would probably be more inclined to nominate him for sainthood on the basis on performing a miracle rather than the HHOF.

But the first Euro captain to win the Cup will probably be a HHOF anyway, regardless....
Yep. I think Lidstrom will pull it off before he's done.

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02-21-2008, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Noldo View Post
The notion "Soft europeans that choke in the playoffs" has reached almost mythical proportions. But fact remains that so far no european captain has lead his team to Stanley Cup.

Sooner or later that ceiling will be broken.

Is that an achievement that in itself give reason to consider that captain HHOF worthy?
Unfortunately that notion still sort of exists. 9/10 people would want a majority of a Canadian team sprinkled with Euro players rather than the other way around. Reasons why the NYR and Detroit dont do near as well in the playoffs as they should, but that's another story.

Yeah the only Euro captain with a chance to win the Cup this year is Alfie. He proved the critics wrong last year for the first time ever. That was a great display of Hockey. But he's at least at an elite level right now. IMO none of the captains that have won a Cup recently deserve the Hall. In 2003 it was Stevens, obvious one there. But in '04 it was Andreychuk, then BrindAmour. Nieds will be there of course but just being a captain doesnt guarantee anything. Look at Hatcher, Carboneau.

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02-21-2008, 10:58 AM
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Unfortunately that notion still sort of exists. 9/10 people would want a majority of a Canadian team sprinkled with Euro players rather than the other way around. Reasons why the NYR and Detroit dont do near as well in the playoffs as they should, but that's another story.

Yeah the only Euro captain with a chance to win the Cup this year is Alfie. He proved the critics wrong last year for the first time ever. That was a great display of Hockey. But he's at least at an elite level right now. IMO none of the captains that have won a Cup recently deserve the Hall. In 2003 it was Stevens, obvious one there. But in '04 it was Andreychuk, then BrindAmour. Nieds will be there of course but just being a captain doesnt guarantee anything. Look at Hatcher, Carboneau.
Just out of curiosity, why do you feel Lidstrom and the Wings don't have a chance at the Cup this season?

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02-21-2008, 11:49 AM
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Just out of curiosity, why do you feel Lidstrom and the Wings don't have a chance at the Cup this season?
The Wings have done nothing in the playoffs since the tro of Yzerman, Shanahan and Fedorov slowed down. In other words they've done nothing since 2002. Since their last Cup they've led the league in points twice, and a third to be this year. They've constantly underacheived in the playoffs recently and havent shown the heart to win. I like Lidstrom still, but outside of that they dont have a big name playoff performer. IMO they arent the favourites in the West, Anaheim is, and that's who they'll have to play if they get that far.

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02-21-2008, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
The Wings have done nothing in the playoffs since the tro of Yzerman, Shanahan and Fedorov slowed down. In other words they've done nothing since 2002. Since their last Cup they've led the league in points twice, and a third to be this year. They've constantly underacheived in the playoffs recently and havent shown the heart to win. I like Lidstrom still, but outside of that they dont have a big name playoff performer. IMO they arent the favourites in the West, Anaheim is, and that's who they'll have to play if they get that far.
I'd argue their performance last season in making the Conference Finals by going through Calgary and San Jose and then giving Anaheim some stiff competition while missing their #2 and #3 defenseman was pretty noteworthy, but you apparently disagree. I also think Zetterberg has proven to be a very consistent playoff performer in his career, as has Lidstrom. Datsyuk had a nice run last year but he needs to repeat it before I am ready to say he's turned the corner.

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02-21-2008, 12:10 PM
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If they are otherwise hall worthy, sure. Captaining a team to the cup is a great accomplishment, but being european will have nothing to do with how much they deserve to be in the hall.

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02-21-2008, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
It could be clincher for Alfreddson, but that's it. I don't think he's in without it.
I don't think he's in with it personally.

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02-21-2008, 01:51 PM
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I think if Koivu wins it he,ll be a HOFer , because of all this cancer and come back stuff and what he gave to the team & community and how he faces some rude times and he,ll soon be the longest habs captain.all this is a boost for him even if hes not a *great* player but just a good 2nd liner for most of his career.

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02-21-2008, 02:00 PM
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I think if Koivu wins it he,ll be a HOFer , because of all this cancer and come back stuff and what he gave to the team & community and how he faces some rude times and he,ll soon be the longest habs captain.all this is a boost for him even if hes not a *great* player but just a good 2nd liner for most of his career.
Koivu has been a great ,and highly competitive player, a fine captain on most of his career(both with Finland and with theCanadiens),but he's declining overall due importantly to numerous health issues.If he wins a Cup as captain in Montreal,it won't certainly catapult him into the Hall but it'll be enough to obtain extreme and serious consideration for number retirement in Montreal,which is a greater and more prestigious accomplishment than being introduced into the HOF.

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02-21-2008, 02:02 PM
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Depends.

Lidstrom
Jagr
Sundin

are already in

Alfredsson would probably get in with a cup, could get in anyway without one.

Jokinen, not yet

Naslund, probably not
Koivu, probably not

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02-21-2008, 02:48 PM
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I don't think he's in with it personally.
He still has 5 years of good hockey, and unless he pulls a Samsonov, he'll still be a good player. When I said that it could be a clincher, that implies that he's a borderline case to begin with.

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Koivu has been a great ,and highly competitive player, a fine captain on most of his career(both with Finland and with theCanadiens),but he's declining overall due importantly to numerous health issues.If he wins a Cup as captain in Montreal,it won't certainly catapult him into the Hall but it'll be enough to obtain extreme and serious consideration for number retirement in Montreal,which is a greater and more prestigious accomplishment than being introduced into the HOF.
I completely agree on you on this point. This said, does Moore have his name on the jersey? Probably the most underrated player, in regards to his legacy here. Too bad his style killed him, could have had a legacy comparable to Ted Lindsay if he could only have played three or four more healthy years.

Koivu COULD get some consideration if you add INTL hockey to his resume. Already in some comittee of the IOC, and is a lock for the internatonnal hockey hall of fame, if such a thing exists. As do Mark Streit, but that's another story.

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02-21-2008, 03:09 PM
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He still has 5 years of good hockey, and unless he pulls a Samsonov, he'll still be a good player. When I said that it could be a clincher, that implies that he's a borderline case to begin with.
that is being highly generous. He probably doesn't even have 5 years of hockey left. He is already 35, and is bound to begin declining. He probably won't reach 500 goals, and to put it frankly he was never consistantly an elite player and will not have the career numbers to make it. He basically has to play like this season until he's 40 to make it and that isn't realistic given most of his career and his current age.

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02-21-2008, 05:14 PM
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Unfortunately that notion still sort of exists. 9/10 people would want a majority of a Canadian team sprinkled with Euro players rather than the other way around. Reasons why the NYR and Detroit dont do near as well in the playoffs as they should, but that's another story.

Yeah the only Euro captain with a chance to win the Cup this year is Alfie. He proved the critics wrong last year for the first time ever. That was a great display of Hockey. But he's at least at an elite level right now. IMO none of the captains that have won a Cup recently deserve the Hall. In 2003 it was Stevens, obvious one there. But in '04 it was Andreychuk, then BrindAmour. Nieds will be there of course but just being a captain doesnt guarantee anything. Look at Hatcher, Carboneau.
Detroit has THREE Cups with a lot of Euros. Most people don't care about a players nationality anymore.

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02-21-2008, 05:17 PM
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The Wings have done nothing in the playoffs since the tro of Yzerman, Shanahan and Fedorov slowed down. In other words they've done nothing since 2002. Since their last Cup they've led the league in points twice, and a third to be this year. They've constantly underacheived in the playoffs recently and havent shown the heart to win. I like Lidstrom still, but outside of that they dont have a big name playoff performer. IMO they arent the favourites in the West, Anaheim is, and that's who they'll have to play if they get that far.
They won THREE Cups in the last dozen years. They won with Konstantinov, Holmstron, Larianov, Fetisov, Fedorov, Lidstrom among others.

Last year with their 4 or 5 of their most important players being European they went to 6 games in the third round vs the eventual Cup champs. It isn't the Cup but it sure isn't "nothing".

I mean using Detroit as an example of playoff failure due to Europeans is idiotic.


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02-21-2008, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Cup 2008 Sens Rule View Post
They won THREE Cups in the last dozen years. They won with Konstantinov, Holmstron, Larianov, Fetisov, Fedorov, Lidstrom among others.

Last year with their 4 or 5 of their most important players being European they went to 6 games in the third round vs the eventual Cup champs. It isn't the Cup but it sure isn't "nothing".

I mean using Detroit as an example of playoff failure due to Europeans is idiotic.
Yes but let's examine the players they had then. Yzerman, Fedorov, Shanahan, Hull Robitaille, even Hasek. Fedorov and Hull were always good hockey players when the crunch time hit. And there were proven winners like Yzerman and Shanahan who would give their eye teeth to win. Remember in '01 when both went down with an injury against LA? Well the Wings lost that series in 6 games. All I'm saying is that Detroit is an extremely soft team and without these proven warriors they wont win, believe me. Hey dont take my word for it, look at their success when Yzerman/Fedorov/Shanahan are their best players. Now look at it when Zetterberg/Datsyuk are their best.

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02-21-2008, 11:06 PM
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I think if Koivu wins it he,ll be a HOFer , because of all this cancer and come back stuff and what he gave to the team & community and how he faces some rude times and he,ll soon be the longest habs captain.all this is a boost for him even if hes not a *great* player but just a good 2nd liner for most of his career.
I like Koivu but he would be the worst pick of all time into the HHOF. You think Dick Duff is bad eh? Duff did however win 6 Cups and was a high scorer in a couple of those playoff years. Koivu has never in his life gotten out of the 2nd round of the playoffs. The only player in the Hall that off the top of my head has never gotten out of the 2nd round is Dionne. Is Koivu similar to Dionne? No. As much as I respect Koivu that would be lowering the bar way too much. If you think sentiment got Neely in.....................

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