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Elliotte Friedman: Six Current Players Included in Top 100 Centennial List

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Old
01-11-2017, 03:44 PM
  #426
mouser
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Originally Posted by SAK11 View Post
Does anyone know if international play is a factor on this list? If so, Iginla has a much better chance and would probably be the better choice over Chara [2 Olympic golds and 1 World Cup win for Iginla, fairly significant role on all 3 teams].
One would hope not, given this list is supposed to the "Top 100 NHL players". Otherwise we should start talking about players like Slava Fetisov on the list.

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01-11-2017, 03:45 PM
  #427
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Lets all stand back for a second and consider that this list is simply someone's opinion.

I don't know of any hockey analysts (other than Stan Fischler), that can say they saw many of the players listed actually play the game when they were old enough to have formed a "professional" opinion.

To say that only one of these players who you are all arguing deserves to be on the list over another player is sort of silly.

Let's increase the number of players to at least ten- maybe 12 and see where we are...maube there can be a consensus...

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01-11-2017, 03:47 PM
  #428
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You're missing Thornton.
I'm not missing him. I'm excluding him.

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Old
01-11-2017, 03:49 PM
  #429
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That's a 40 point gap over 600 games and their points/60 overall is dead even. I don't know how you can possibly spin those numbers to say that it's anything but close.



Why do we need to compare them to Keith's 5 best years? Why are you picking and choosing which 5 years to use for Keith instead of just using 5 consecutive years? It's either compare Chara's 5 years to 08-09 to 14-15 for Keith, 09-10 to 15-16 for Keith or 10-11 to 16-17 for Keith. I'll do a quick check right now, it still not even close, the closest Keith gets is from 10-11 to 16-17 with 2.28 GA/60 and 54% GF%.
I meant 5 consecutive years in Keiths prime as well. Just ensuring accuracy in the comparisons. You picked 5 years in Charas prime then a different longer time period for keith.

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01-11-2017, 03:50 PM
  #430
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Originally Posted by The Toews Era View Post
The "teams leading scorer" crap is one kopitar fans love to throw in and is misleading. Toews should not be penalized for playing with kane on a separate line. If kopitar played with crosby on another line he would have zero "led team in scoring" titles while receiving no direct benefit from that production himself. This assumes matchups dont change, and as toews is always playing the toughest matchups kane is not sheltering him.
Mrest is valid of course.
Conversely Kopitar has not gotten to play with the same level of offensive talent that Toews has. Toews selection would be purely narrative based.

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01-11-2017, 03:50 PM
  #431
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Anyway, back to my original point. I have a feeling that Keith won't make this list based on Chara seemingly not being included. I feel like Chara's reputation during his prime was higher than Keith's reputation during his prime. Seeing how Chara doesn't seem like a lock, I have a feeling Keith doesn't make it on the list and the current players who make it will be Crosby, Ovi, Jagr, Malkin, Toews and Kane.

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01-11-2017, 03:54 PM
  #432
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Chara shared a Postseason All-Star selection with Bryan McCabe, we're really going to pump up his early-career competition?

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01-11-2017, 03:55 PM
  #433
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Originally Posted by Empoleon8771 View Post
Just repeating it doesn't magically make it true

Chara had 6 All Star appearances from 2003-2004 to 2011-2012. Lidstrom was still very much in his prime for a large majority of that. Chara got at least 4 of his 6 and probably 5 all star appearances during Lidstrom's prime.
2 all star appearances in 11 and 12. That was charas late prime. I think it is relatively clear that was after pronger lindstrom niedermayer primes and before karlsson and doughtys primes. Now in keiths late prime, guys like karlsson and doughty are well in prime.

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01-11-2017, 03:56 PM
  #434
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Originally Posted by The Toews Era View Post
2 all star appearances in 11 and 12. That was charas late prime. I think it is relatively clear that was after pronger lindstrom niedermayer primes and before karlsson and doughtys primes. Now in keiths late prime, guys like karlsson and doughty are well in prime.
And he had 4 before 2011 and 2012. I also don't know why you're acting like Lidstrom didn't win the Norris in 2011 though, because he did. Your excuse making is really bad, a majority of Chara's all star selections were against a tougher competition than Keith's competition.

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Old
01-11-2017, 03:57 PM
  #435
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Anyway, back to my original point. I have a feeling that Keith won't make this list based on Chara seemingly not being included. I feel like Chara's reputation during his prime was higher than Keith's reputation during his prime. Seeing how Chara doesn't seem like a lock, I have a feeling Keith doesn't make it on the list and the current players who make it will be Crosby, Ovi, Jagr, Malkin, Toews and Kane.
Also the entire keith chara discussion we just had is excluding keiths several dominant playoff runs and dominant first pairing play for team canada. Yes the latter is unfair vs chara on placements but individual play in international can still be examined.

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01-11-2017, 03:59 PM
  #436
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Also the entire keith chara discussion we just had is excluding keiths several dominant playoff runs and dominant first pairing play for team canada. Yes the latter is unfair vs chara on placements but individual play in international can still be examined.
This is the top-100 NHL players, so international is meaningless here. Keith's 1 elite playoff doesn't account for years and years of consistent dominance by Chara. It's not really close either.

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01-11-2017, 03:59 PM
  #437
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Originally Posted by Empoleon8771 View Post
And he had 4 before 2011 and 2012. I also don't know why you're acting like Lidstrom didn't win the Norris in 2011 though, because he did. Your excuse making is really bad, a majority of Chara's all star selections were against a tougher competition than Keith's competition.
Keiths late prime competition is far tougher than charas. Lidstrom in 2011 was not in his prime. Be serious

Yes 4 before. So 4 and keith isnt done yet.

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01-11-2017, 04:00 PM
  #438
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Originally Posted by Empoleon8771 View Post
This is the top-100 NHL players, so international is meaningless here. Keith's 1 elite playoff doesn't account for years and years of consistent dominance by Chara. It's not really close either.
1 elite playoff? Thats absurd. He has had several elite playoffs and one all-universe one.

Also glad to see youve come around on gf%. Toews > malkin

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01-11-2017, 04:04 PM
  #439
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Originally Posted by Empoleon8771 View Post
This is the top-100 NHL players, so international is meaningless here. Keith's 1 elite playoff doesn't account for years and years of consistent dominance by Chara. It's not really close either.
😂😂😂😂😂

One elite playoff....


Plz keep posting😂😂😂😂😂

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01-11-2017, 04:10 PM
  #440
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1 elite playoff? Thats absurd. He has had several elite playoffs and one all-universe one.
Maybe we have different definitions of "elite". He was elite in 2015 and was borderline elite in 2010. Otherwise? Nah. Unless you count 6 points in 17 games as "elite" all of a sudden, he's not at "several elite playoffs".

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Also glad to see youve come around on gf%. Toews > malkin
If you're coming to the conclusion that I'm saying that Chara was better due to GF%, then you're not reading what I'm saying and I'm just going to ignore you going further. Respond to what I'm saying or don't respond at all.

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Keiths late prime competition is far tougher than charas. Lidstrom in 2011 was not in his prime. Be serious

Yes 4 before. So 4 and keith isnt done yet.
Lidstrom in 2011 still won a Norris, so just saying "he wasn't in his prime!!!!" is totally irrelevant. Chara's early prime had drastically higher competition for the Norris than Keith at any point, yet Chara had at least 4 all star team appearances in 6 years (I think it's 5 in 7, but it's not a huge difference). Keith is at 2 in 8 years with easier competition overall.

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01-11-2017, 04:14 PM
  #441
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Maybe we have different definitions of "elite". He was elite in 2015 and was borderline elite in 2010. Otherwise? Nah. Unless you count 6 points in 17 games as "elite" all of a sudden, he's not at "several elite playoffs".



If you're coming to the conclusion that I'm saying that Chara was better due to GF%, then you're not reading what I'm saying and I'm just going to ignore you going further. Respond to what I'm saying or don't respond at all.



Lidstrom in 2011 still won a Norris, so just saying "he wasn't in his prime!!!!" is totally irrelevant. Chara's early prime had drastically higher competition for the Norris than Keith at any point, yet Chara had at least 4 all star team appearances in 6 years (I think it's 5 in 7, but it's not a huge difference). Keith is at 2 in 8 years with easier competition overall.
Ok what did you mean then because gf% was the only thing tilted in charas favor.

A well past prime Lidstrom winning Norris only further demonstrates the fallow period for dmen at the time. Keiths late prime competition of prime karlsson and prime doughty is not just tougher but far tougher than charas late prime. We are talking about late primes here. In other words how likely is it for keith to add to his all star tally and approach the 6. Unless youre counting full career awards for chara vs half career awards for keith.

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01-11-2017, 04:17 PM
  #442
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I'm not missing him. I'm excluding him.
So you're excluding a guy who currently sits 25th all time in points and 13th in assists? Chances are he will end up top 20 and top 10 in bit of those by the time his career is over and he's not worthy of being on a top 100 of all time list?

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01-11-2017, 04:21 PM
  #443
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Ok what did you mean then because gf% was the only thing tilted in charas favor.
There's a difference between saying "all else being equal, a guy with a higher GF% is better" and saying "a guy with a higher GF% is better". I shouldn't need to explain that, but here we are.

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A well past prime Lidstrom winning Norris only further demonstrates the fallow period for dmen at the time. Keiths late prime competition of prime karlsson and prime doughty is not just tougher but far tougher than charas late prime. We are talking about late primes here. In other words how likely is it for keith to add to his all star tally and approach the 6. Unless youre counting full career awards for chara vs half career awards for keith.
And Chara's early prime had much higher competition, and yet he still was named an all star in 4 of 6 seasons. I like how you're ignoring that part and just clinging to a 2 year window where you're saying a guy who won the Norris wasn't in his prime. You're clinging to the term "late prime" because you know that their early primes weren't even on the same planet.

Dude, come on. You're just making excuses for Keith instead of just admitting the obvious: prime Chara was just a better player. It's really that simple. When Lidstrom left his prime or what your definition of early prime vs late prime is totally irrelevant to that.

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01-11-2017, 04:27 PM
  #444
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So you're excluding a guy who currently sits 25th all time in points and 13th in assists? Chances are he will end up top 20 and top 10 in bit of those by the time his career is over and he's not worthy of being on a top 100 of all time list?
Points aren't everything. Joe's a big strong guy who decided after a few seasons that he'd rather play the soft game rather than get his nose dirty. He could have been a bigger impact player. Just my opinion.

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01-11-2017, 04:34 PM
  #445
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No, he's not, have you seen him play game in game out?

The man is dominant, it hilarious how people obsessed with stats try to belittle just how good he actually is. After the second Cup win there were legitimate news stories about Toews being better than Crosby and how Toews is the best player in hockey. He's that good.

He's a first ballot Hall of Famer if he stopped playing today.

There is a valid argument he is the best player in the game.

He is this generation's Mark Messier.
Have you seen other great player play game in and game out?

Would he be one of the top 10 players you'd pick to build a franchise around if the goal was to win now? He wouldn't make my list.

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01-11-2017, 04:36 PM
  #446
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Originally Posted by Empoleon8771 View Post
There's a difference between saying "all else being equal, a guy with a higher GF% is better" and saying "a guy with a higher GF% is better". I shouldn't need to explain that, but here we are.



And Chara's early prime had much higher competition, and yet he still was named an all star in 4 of 6 seasons. I like how you're ignoring that part and just clinging to a 2 year window where you're saying a guy who won the Norris wasn't in his prime. You're clinging to the term "late prime" because you know that their early primes weren't even on the same planet.

Dude, come on. You're just making excuses for Keith instead of just admitting the obvious: prime Chara was just a better player. It's really that simple. When Lidstrom left his prime or what your definition of early prime vs late prime is totally irrelevant to that.
Charas early prime - do you have a response to the guy who pointed out bryan mccabe was AS-2 in 2004?

As for the gf% stuff, in toews vs malkin on those metrics all else was essentially equal. Es p/60 was off by like 0.2 from 2010-2015. Toews cf% was higher. And his gf% was well higher. So es p/60 being even vs being 0.2 off is all of a sudden the breaking point?

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01-11-2017, 04:46 PM
  #447
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Points aren't everything. Joe's a big strong guy who decided after a few seasons that he'd rather play the soft game rather than get his nose dirty. He could have been a bigger impact player. Just my opinion.
He decided to play a softer game because his face got destroyed by Lindros. He's still not afraid to get his nose dirty though. Guy is arguably one of the best passers in the history of the game

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Old
01-11-2017, 04:53 PM
  #448
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So when do we see this list??

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01-11-2017, 04:58 PM
  #449
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So when do we see this list??
All star weekend I believe. Can't come soon enough, not that it will even begin to slow this thread down...

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01-11-2017, 05:09 PM
  #450
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😂😂😂😂😂

One elite playoff....


Plz keep posting😂😂😂😂😂
Seriously.

Keith could easily have 3 Conn Smythe trophies.

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