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How about this for our netminding problems???

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Old
04-23-2004, 01:38 AM
  #51
dawgbone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by momentai
No, they don't have any glaring desire to trade Garon. But how much of an overpayment is at debate here. I highly doubt that the Montreal management are going to demanding Ryan Smyth for a backup goaltender. It could very well be the case but I don't think you drive away potential suitors by demanding a player of Smyth's calibre right off the bat.
Like I said, if they don't view Garon as a backup goaltender, who knows what their asking price is. If I am Montreal, I don't see too many tenders right now in the system, so I am in no hurry what so ever to get rid of Garon, unless it fills a need on my team.

Quote:
One of the reasons I see him as a viable option is that he definitely has the potential to be a #1. He has shown flashes of that ability in his limited exposure in the NHL as well. But the main reason I targeted the two options in Ahonen/Garon is because I don't believe they will "gut" the team to acquire. If the price is too expensive... then by all means, I would bail on the idea. However, I see the situation they are both in... ie/ goaltending in front of them being young and having significant years ahead... and I can't see the clubs demanding an arm and a leg.
But if you look from the perspective of that club, why would you trade them? I mean what reason does Montreal have to trade Garon? I highly doubt that to give him a chance and to help another team out are high on their list of things to do with him. If I am Gainey, I don't trade Garon unless I get something back that benefits my team.

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But as I said. Without question, you move on if the price is too high. I was originally thinking along the lines of Chimera and a 2nd to perhaps reunite Chimera with Julien...
Does this actually do anything for Montreal? I mean Garon isn't hurting them in any way by being the backup? Do they have to get rid of him for some up and coming future star? The answer is no. The only reason they need to trade him is to make their team better. Are they better with Chimera a 2nd pick and Eric Fichaud than they are with Garon? And if Theo goes down for a long stretch, how do they look then?

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Well, indirectly... holdouts are much more common in today's NHL as a result of rifts between player and management. Some that come to mind are Lindros in Philly, Peca in Buffalo, and Yashin in Ottawa. All of those players held out and demanded to be traded. Although these instances do not happy all that frequently, I'd say they are much more common occurrences than a #1 goaltender being dealt because of an overpay... with no inherent problems associated with the player whether due to pricing himself out of the city or rifts between player/management.
I meant the matter in which the holdout occured. Not since lindros has a guy held out simply over disdain for an organization.

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I think you missed my point. I simply wondered why it would be that "Toronto", in your hypothetical situation, would target Theodore out of all the possible goaltenders given the overpay. There are other viable options out there that are better... and if Toronto is looking to make a deal such as that... they might as well go for the best.
I got your point, which is why I brought up the backups in each case. Why would Florida trade Luongo for an overpayment when they have shields as the guy who would take over? I mean Theodore would be the guy because the Habs have someone they feel can replace him, who would be younger and cheaper and maybe able to do the same job. Those viable options aren't viable. Who's the Stars tender if they deal Turco?

This is actually a pretty stupid argument. It was a hypothetical scenario for why Garon might not come cheaply. The fact of the matter is the Habs have no reason to trade him unless they get something they want back. If they are keeping their options open to see what transpires in 3 years, why trade him now? If you and your scouts think he will be better than your current starter in 2 years, why trade him? That's the point.

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04-23-2004, 01:15 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
Like I said, if they don't view Garon as a backup goaltender, who knows what their asking price is. If I am Montreal, I don't see too many tenders right now in the system, so I am in no hurry what so ever to get rid of Garon, unless it fills a need on my team.
I think I fullly do realize what the implications are here. It is not as if I am blindly looking at the Oilers' organization without any thoughtful analysis from the Montreal side of the situation. I believe I mentioned on more than one occasion that their view on him holds precedence over any trade proposal. If it is going to be expensive (as I said earlier), certainly the proposal goes down the drain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
Does this actually do anything for Montreal? I mean Garon isn't hurting them in any way by being the backup? Do they have to get rid of him for some up and coming future star? The answer is no. The only reason they need to trade him is to make their team better. Are they better with Chimera a 2nd pick and Eric Fichaud than they are with Garon? And if Theo goes down for a long stretch, how do they look then?
I could very well ask the same questions about backup goaltending in your proposal as well. Rita and a 2nd rounder? Reminds me much of the same. I see Chimera being a capable left winger. With Dagenais struggling a little bit in the playoffs alongside Ryder and Ribeiro, I could definitely see Claude Julien going with Chimera on that line. But as I said it was all speculation by myself and nothing more. It could very well be that they would need more encouragement from our side... that's perfectly fine. But it is not as if I was blindly throwing our junk towards them without any regard for their concerns.

And backups are not all that difficult to obtain. While you may not be able to find a potential #1 starter among them, that really isn't what they need, now is it? They are looking for a serviceable starter for around 20 games per season. Do you really believe that the Montreal Canadiens are just going to sit on their laurels and say, "Well, we traded Garon. Now we have to go with Eric Fichaud even though we aren't comfortable with him in net." 20 game starters are not exactly hot commodities out there.

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Originally Posted by dawgbone
I meant the matter in which the holdout occured. Not since lindros has a guy held out simply over disdain for an organization.
And even if you want to specify it to those circumstances, it is still one viable occurence. It still remains much more likely than for the #1 goaltender hypothetical overpay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
I got your point, which is why I brought up the backups in each case. Why would Florida trade Luongo for an overpayment when they have shields as the guy who would take over? I mean Theodore would be the guy because the Habs have someone they feel can replace him, who would be younger and cheaper and maybe able to do the same job. Those viable options aren't viable. Who's the Stars tender if they deal Turco?
I still don't think you get it. My argument was a tongue-in-cheek one and was by no means serious to say the least. If Toronto is really gung-ho about acquiring a goaltender, why should they go after Theodore? If Toronto, in your hypothetical situation, is willing to go to such lengths... then they'd do what it took to get the best of the bunch irregardless of the cost (you've made them spend so much already. What's another drop in the bucket?)



Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
This is actually a pretty stupid argument. It was a hypothetical scenario for why Garon might not come cheaply. The fact of the matter is the Habs have no reason to trade him unless they get something they want back. If they are keeping their options open to see what transpires in 3 years, why trade him now? If you and your scouts think he will be better than your current starter in 2 years, why trade him? That's the point.
Stupid argument or not... you've helped in perpetuating it. It was a hypothetical situation indeed and nowhere have I stated I am ignorant of their position. But how can a backup goaltender (whether projected to be a #1 or not is irrelevant for this point) elevate his game to #1 status without game situations. That can only happen if 1) Theodore is traded or 2) Theodore is injured. They can project Garon's development until the cows come home... but without playing time behind a #1 starter in Theodore soaking up the minutes, it surely will be a difficult task for everyone involved to live up to those claims.

I know the "point" and acknowldedge it. But I merely arguing it isn't set in stone. Garon could very well be had for the right price. We obviously disagree on what the potential asking price could be. While a goaltender of that quality may not come exactly cheap for whatever reasons, neither will it involve the necessary assets to garner the #1 overall pick this year.

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Old
04-23-2004, 03:12 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by momentai
I still don't think you get it. My argument was a tongue-in-cheek one and was by no means serious to say the least. If Toronto is really gung-ho about acquiring a goaltender, why should they go after Theodore? If Toronto, in your hypothetical situation, is willing to go to such lengths... then they'd do what it took to get the best of the bunch irregardless of the cost (you've made them spend so much already. What's another drop in the bucket?)
I know it was tongue in cheek... I get that. But you don't seem to get what I am saying. I brought up Theodore and Toronto because a) Theo is a very good goaltender and b) if Montreal thinks highly enough of Garon, Theo might be made available. I haven't got the slightest clue why you would bring up the other goaltenders as it just doesn't make sense from their teams perspective. Toronto can want Luongo all they want, but Florida isn't giving him up. I have a feeling you're more likely to see Theo go than Luongo go, and that was my point.

Quote:
Stupid argument or not... you've helped in perpetuating it. It was a hypothetical situation indeed and nowhere have I stated I am ignorant of their position. But how can a backup goaltender (whether projected to be a #1 or not is irrelevant for this point) elevate his game to #1 status without game situations. That can only happen if 1) Theodore is traded or 2) Theodore is injured. They can project Garon's development until the cows come home... but without playing time behind a #1 starter in Theodore soaking up the minutes, it surely will be a difficult task for everyone involved to live up to those claims.
Yes, I understand that. But Ahoenen is an allstar goaltender of the future based solely on reputation and play in the AHL. Garon dominated the AHL, and has played very well in his time in Montreal. And I know they can't tout him as a number 1 goalie and expect to get that value in a trade... that isn't what I am saying. I am saying that if they feel he will be better than Theo, it may prompt them to eventually trade Theo for that #1 goaltender price... unless they get a knock your socks type offer from a team for Garon.

Quote:
I know the "point" and acknowldedge it. But I merely arguing it isn't set in stone. Garon could very well be had for the right price. We obviously disagree on what the potential asking price could be. While a goaltender of that quality may not come exactly cheap for whatever reasons, neither will it involve the necessary assets to garner the #1 overall pick this year.
Momentai, this statement just proved that you haven't gotten my point. "We obviously disagree on what the potential asking price could be." I haven't argued a potential asking price at all. I have no idea what Montreal would want for Garon, because I don't know how much value they hold in him. My whole point was offering a counter argument to why Garon might not come as cheap as some people think....

And that depends on what Montreal's plans for him are. If they don't think he will be better than Theo, and that Theo is the man, they may very well deal Garon for picks, prospects or whatever. However, if they hold him in very high regard, the price for him may be too much for most teams.

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Old
04-23-2004, 03:25 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
Like I said, if they don't view Garon as a backup goaltender, who knows what their asking price is. If I am Montreal, I don't see too many tenders right now in the system, so I am in no hurry what so ever to get rid of Garon, unless it fills a need on my team.
I agree with everything else you said dawg except that Montreal is light in the system.

They have Joni Puurala, Jaroslav Halak and just signed Hobey Baker Finalist Yann Danis. I happen to like all three as good prospects, not to mention that they still have Olivier Michaud in the system.

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04-23-2004, 03:55 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slats432
I agree with everything else you said dawg except that Montreal is light in the system.

They have Joni Puurala, Jaroslav Halak and just signed Hobey Baker Finalist Yann Danis. I happen to like all three as good prospects, not to mention that they still have Olivier Michaud in the system.
Fair enough. I looked at Fichaud and JF Damphousee and didn't see anything good in terms of an NHL backup in the next two years.

Didn't Michaud spend most of the season in the ECHL?

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04-23-2004, 04:44 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
Fair enough. I looked at Fichaud and JF Damphousee and didn't see anything good in terms of an NHL backup in the next two years.

Didn't Michaud spend most of the season in the ECHL?
He moved up and down, It was 22 ECHL games and 16 AHL games.

I am not sure where all of their goaltenders are in their progression, but from what I heard Halak was an excellent pick late in the draft last year and two years ago, Puurala had similar numbers to Lehtonen in the SM-liga although he is 15 months older, they were pretty impressive. As for Danis, the fact that he is their 7th ranked prospect on HF already says alot. If they moved Garon or Theo, I think Danis would be the guy next in line.(Although Damphousse and Fichaud both had pretty good numbers in the AHL, and Damphousse is only 24 still.)

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04-23-2004, 05:00 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
I know it was tongue in cheek... I get that. But you don't seem to get what I am saying. I brought up Theodore and Toronto because a) Theo is a very good goaltender and b) if Montreal thinks highly enough of Garon, Theo might be made available. I haven't got the slightest clue why you would bring up the other goaltenders as it just doesn't make sense from their teams perspective. Toronto can want Luongo all they want, but Florida isn't giving him up. I have a feeling you're more likely to see Theo go than Luongo go, and that was my point.
All of that is merely irrelevant rhetoric in my view. You brought up the hypothetical situation in which Toronto would overpay in order to get a goaltender. You were the one that chose Montreal as a trade partner and made no actual limitations on what Toronto would offer and to whom. I'm sure you could make a case that Nabokov could be traded as well given that Toskala is the backup there and more than capable himself. The options aren't at all limited and depending upon what Toronto would offer in a trade, I doubt there are many options in this league hold the moniker of "untouchable".

And would Florida consider the deal if perhaps along with those prospects, Sundin could be added as well? Since you make no limitations in original example, it's hard to exactly tell who is available and who is not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
Yes, I understand that. But Ahoenen is an allstar goaltender of the future based solely on reputation and play in the AHL. Garon dominated the AHL, and has played very well in his time in Montreal. And I know they can't tout him as a number 1 goalie and expect to get that value in a trade... that isn't what I am saying. I am saying that if they feel he will be better than Theo, it may prompt them to eventually trade Theo for that #1 goaltender price... unless they get a knock your socks type offer from a team for Garon.
Not sure I exactly understand why Ahonen was brought up in this point as it seems very out of place but for the rest I agree.. and I don't think you can find a point in my message that directly disputes that. All I was saying in that quotation is that I don't necessarily see a situation in which Garon could be given the reins so to speak without Theo getting traded or injured. If they do that then the situation arises for Garon to prove himself. Until then, however, he is still an unproven commodity. That's all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
Momentai, this statement just proved that you haven't gotten my point. "We obviously disagree on what the potential asking price could be." I haven't argued a potential asking price at all. I have no idea what Montreal would want for Garon, because I don't know how much value they hold in him. My whole point was offering a counter argument to why Garon might not come as cheap as some people think....
I realize what you are doing: playing "devil's advocate" so to speak. However, I'm not sure you know exactly what that entails. By making the opposing argument (by playing that role), you are effectively taking the "other" position whether you fully believe that or not. Even if that other position is not cheap or more expensive than you think, it remains an opposing viewpoint in which we disagree. "Counter argument" --- you said it yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawgbone
And that depends on what Montreal's plans for him are. If they don't think he will be better than Theo, and that Theo is the man, they may very well deal Garon for picks, prospects or whatever. However, if they hold him in very high regard, the price for him may be too much for most teams.
Perhaps. Perhaps not. I don't certainly know for sure and I'm sure you don't either. That's why we speculate.

And once again. I do understand your point whether you take that to heart or not.

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04-24-2004, 02:42 PM
  #58
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there's lots of talk about garon on his thread and he would be my first choice as well. some have expressed a concern that this would leave mtl thin at the goalie position if theodore went down. the obvious solution to that would be the oil sending either markannen or conklin to montreal in a potential trade as we wouldn't need both of them here in that scenario.

in terms of what the oil would have to give up to get him: the one huge hole that montreal has imo opinion is a lack of size and toughness up front. everyone knows that the habs love their french players. hmmmm. do the oil have any tough french forwards that might be available? what about big george and one of the current goalies for garon? round out the trade however you need to to even it up but imo opinion a trade like this addresses weaknesses for both teams.

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