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Old
02-27-2008, 01:31 PM
  #51
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You could get Richards without a starting goalie. Smith is not going to help Tampa this season anyway. And there's alot better crop of UFA goalie's than UfA centers. I think Howson insulted Tampa with that offer. I mean Brule (borderline bust), fritche (career 3rd/4th liner) and OKT (career 6th/7th d-man)

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02-27-2008, 01:32 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by JBum View Post
I would have done it. LeClaire has had one good year, this one. He's an injury prone goaltender who has been lucky this year as far as his health. He WILL get injured again and miss a ton of games. With Mason coming prolly next year I would have traded LeClaire in a heartbeat. I'm sick & tired of being the lowest scoring team in the league. Adding Richards with Nash would have done wonders for that stat. Noreena could have finished out the year and even with him in the net we would have stood a better chance of getting into the playoffs with a Nash/Richards line than we do now. You have to give up good players to get good players! Yes, in a freakin heartbeat!!
More quick fix think with your heart and not your head MacLean thinking.

What good does it do if you can score goals but can't keep them out?

Sorry man - cup teams are built from the net out. This team is where they are b/c of strong goaltending and team defense.

Trading Leclaire would be a collosal mistake.

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02-27-2008, 01:32 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by JBum View Post
I'm not the one with the crying avatar.
The crying avatar is showing the jackets fans on the ledge for no reason.

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02-27-2008, 01:33 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougKnowsBest View Post
but doug would of gotten the deal done for Richards . now that i have sat and read what dallas gave up, im amazed.

not all prospect are going to make it. they all have experation dates. maybe im just a fool, but ill take a nhl all star in his prime, over a prospect goalie anyday. Goalie prospect pffft. goalies come and go. they dont all make it, hell most dont make it.

we just passed on a sure thing so we can take a chance on a maybe


so hey scott, next time you sit down at the negotiations table, bring your wife with you would ya. maybe she has some balls
Your absolutely right. Doug definitively would have gotten the deal done. He would have overpaid, like he always did in the past, to get a guy he likes. Say this about him, he knew what he wanted and did what it took to get it done.

However, therein lies the problem. He would have overpaid for him. We would have thrown in Mason, Brassard, anything to get his guy (if Richards was a Doug Guy). It would have been celebrated with glee on the boards. Doug would go on the radio, and say that he added a character guy, and talk about the playoffs. But we wouldn't have made the Playoffs. Richards wouldn't be a Fedorov, but he wouldn't be our savior either.

And three years down the road, when Richards leaves the team to sign a mega-contract with another team, Leclaire proves that this season was an aberration, injury-wise, and we're left in the lurch, while Tollefsen and Brule have key roles on a playoff-bound Tampa team which Mason carried to success, we'd be decrying this trade, and be in much the same position that we are in now.

Doug's willingness to get the deal done, while exciting from a fans perspective, caused a lot of problems on this team. We'll never forget Scott Lachance, Todd Marchant, and Luke Richardson. Yes, Doug got them. But he severely overpaid for them, crippling the team long after they were gone.

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02-27-2008, 01:34 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBum View Post
I would have done it. LeClaire has had one good year, this one. He's an injury prone goaltender who has been lucky this year as far as his health. He WILL get injured again and miss a ton of games. With Mason coming prolly next year I would have traded LeClaire in a heartbeat. I'm sick & tired of being the lowest scoring team in the league. Adding Richards with Nash would have done wonders for that stat. Noreena could have finished out the year and even with him in the net we would have stood a better chance of getting into the playoffs with a Nash/Richards line than we do now. You have to give up good players to get good players! Yes, in a freakin heartbeat!!
I hate to agree with this because I like Leclaire but everything is true except Mason coming next year. Mason is years away, look how long it took Leclaire to make it. Plus there are more UFA goalies available than Centers.

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02-27-2008, 01:46 PM
  #56
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Doug would have gotten the deal done.. cause of the whole PEI connection..

Doug was part of the Sportsnet Connected panel up here.. Just by hearing what he had to say about Richards.. I too believe he could have gotten the deal done. He kept saying how amazing it would be to see Nash and Richards play together.

But hey.. Im not the type of person that likes to sit and here and dwell on the what could have been, would have been! Jackets really need to focus on getting a center in the offseason!!! via free agency or trade. They cannot go another season without a number one center!

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02-27-2008, 01:50 PM
  #57
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Doug also said his deal for the lightning ownership was fine and just a couple of days away, we would be a playoff team for the last 6 years, and that he invented the wheel. He has credibility written all over!

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02-27-2008, 01:51 PM
  #58
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here's the list of centers, the only one I would want would be Mats, but that's not going to happen so


Joe Sakic 37 COL $6,750,000
Sergei Fedorov 37 CLB $6,080,000
Mats Sundin 36 TOR $5,500,000
Bobby Holik 36 ATL $4,250,000
Alexei Zhamnov 36 BOS $4,100,000
Doug Weight 36 STL $3,500,000
Mike Comrie 26 NYI $3,375,000
Martin Straka 34 NYR $3,300,000
Brendan Morrison 31 VAN $3,200,000
Keith Primeau 35 PHI $3,040,000
Craig Conroy 35 CGY $2,850,000
Mike Ribeiro 27 DAL $2,800,000
Daymond Langkow 30 CGY $2,442,000
Steve Rucchin 35 ATL $2,400,000
David Legwand 26 NAS $2,100,000
Bryan Smolinski 35 MTL $2,000,000
Sean Avery 27 NYR $1,900,000
Vaclav Prospal 32 TBL $1,900,000
Jason Williams 26 CHI $1,600,000
Yanic Perreault 36 CHI $1,500,000
Chris Gratton 31 TBL $1,500,000
Mike Peca 33 CLB $1,300,000
Chris Kelly 26 OTT $1,262,000
Stephane Yelle 33 CGY $1,250,000
Mike York 29 PHX $1,000,000
Marty Reasoner 30 EDM $950,000
Stu Barnes 36 DAL $900,000
Wes Walz 37 MIN $900,000
Niko Kapanen 29 PHX $900,000
Ryan Johnson 31 STL $800,000
Paul Gaustad 25 BUF $750,000
Josef Vasicek 26 NYI $750,000
Dominic Moore 26 MIN $700,000
Curtis Brown 31 SJS $700,000
Byron Ritchie 30 VAN $675,000
Kevyn Adams 32 CHI $650,000
Randy Robitaille 31 OTT $625,000
Jaroslav Hlinka 30 COL $600,000
Trevor Linden 37 VAN $600,000
Patrick Rissmiller 28 SJS $595,000
Kris Beech 26 CLB $585,000
Jason Krog 31 ATL $500,000
Glen Metropolit 33 BOS $500,000
Zenon Konopka 26 CLB $500,000
Wyatt Smith 30 COL $500,000
Jim Dowd 38 PHI $500,000
Jeremy Roenick 37 SJS $500,000
Andreas Karlsson 31 TBL $500,000
Craig MacDonald 30 TBL $500,000
Tim Taylor 38 TBL $500,000
Mark Smith 29 CGY $488,000
Michael Ryan 27 BUF $475,000
Krys Barch 27 DAL $475,000
Brad Winchester 26 DAL $475,000
John Pohl 28 TOR $475,000

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Old
02-27-2008, 01:57 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Top Shelf View Post
More quick fix think with your heart and not your head MacLean thinking.

What good does it do if you can score goals but can't keep them out?

Sorry man - cup teams are built from the net out. This team is where they are b/c of strong goaltending and team defense.

Trading Leclaire would be a collosal mistake.
Quoted for super truth.

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02-27-2008, 02:00 PM
  #60
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FOR THE RECORD. in no way would i have supported trading leclaire for richards. i cant believe anyone would seriously consider that



im all for overpaying for him with guys like lindstrom and methot. this pile of prospects need to have something happen with them. the clock is ticking hard on some of these guys i think.

move picks, prospect, role player. move guys to other teams for pieces that fit better what tampa wanted. the deal was there if scotty wanted to be BOLD enough, and creative enough

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02-27-2008, 02:02 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brianhatesu View Post
here's the list of centers, the only one I would want would be Mats, but that's not going to happen so

Jaroslav Hlinka 30 COL $600,000
Do not be surprised if you pick up Hlinka - Colorado has too many forwards right now so no room for him...

http://www.eurohockey.net/players/sh...cgi?serial=460

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/players/4205

You could probably get him signed for $1.5 million per year over a three year contract - he has played on the Czech national team with Hejda in the past.......

You build a team one player at a time...........

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02-27-2008, 02:58 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougKnowsBest View Post
im all for overpaying for him with guys like lindstrom and methot. this pile of prospects need to have something happen with them. the clock is ticking hard on some of these guys i think.

move picks, prospect, role player. move guys to other teams for pieces that fit better what tampa wanted. the deal was there if scotty wanted to be BOLD enough, and creative enough
I'm also in support of the Jackets trading prospects to get the players they need.

However, Tampa didn't seem to want prospects. They wanted proven roster players. They aren't in a total rebuild and wanting players who are 2-3 years away or to take a chance on possible busts like Brule. They didn't need high priced rentals, like a Fedorov or impending UFA like Peca or Hainsey.

Maybe Vyborny, Klesla and Chimera would have gotten the deal done, but I doubt Howson wasn't willing to give up that much of the roster.

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02-27-2008, 03:32 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougKnowsBest View Post
FOR THE RECORD. in no way would i have supported trading leclaire for richards. i cant believe anyone would seriously consider that



im all for overpaying for him with guys like lindstrom and methot. this pile of prospects need to have something happen with them. the clock is ticking hard on some of these guys i think.

move picks, prospect, role player. move guys to other teams for pieces that fit better what tampa wanted. the deal was there if scotty wanted to be BOLD enough, and creative enough
Take a look at what they got:
A (they hope) franchise goalie, ready to go.
A young high-upside scorer with a good deal of NHL experience.
Another proven NHL player.

And you think they would have taken a series of picks and prospects over that? I just don't think so - this is not a team that's rebuilding. With Vinny and Marty, a servicable D and, most importantly, an NHL calibre day-to-day G, they can really make a run, especially since they play in a weak division.

Hell, we can't even agree that picks and prospects are a good thing in our situation, and you think Tampa was going to go all weak in the knees for Methot and Lindstrom, with all of 70 games between them?

Dallas made the equivalent of Paz + Zherdev as their offer. If you're not willing to be in that ballpark, it's a moot issue.

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02-27-2008, 03:37 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by IAMthespoon View Post
Take a look at what they got:
A (they hope) franchise goalie, ready to go.
A young high-upside scorer with a good deal of NHL experience.
Another proven NHL player.

And you think they would have taken a series of picks and prospects over that? I just don't think so - this is not a team that's rebuilding. With Vinny and Marty, a servicable D and, most importantly, an NHL calibre day-to-day G, they can really make a run, especially since they play in a weak division.

Hell, we can't even agree that picks and prospects are a good thing in our situation, and you think Tampa was going to go all weak in the knees for Methot and Lindstrom, with all of 70 games between them?

Dallas made the equivalent of Paz + Zherdev as their offer. If you're not willing to be in that ballpark, it's a moot issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougKnowsBest View Post
move picks, prospect, role player. move guys to other teams for pieces that fit better what tampa wanted. the deal was there if scotty wanted to be BOLD enough, and creative enough
.....

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02-27-2008, 03:50 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by DougKnowsBest View Post
.....
I say again: Specify. The. Trade.

All you have is "Doug would have done it". So prove it. Show me the trade(s) that get it done.

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02-27-2008, 04:11 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougKnowsBest View Post
first, doug drafted Z. doug made the move for NAsh, doug is responisible for leclaire. At some point in the past year and a half, anyone with half brain considered tradeing z. Just wanted to say that before the victors completley rewrite history
DKB, I understand what you're saying and I can't disagree with you. This post deserves a....


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02-27-2008, 04:16 PM
  #67
KallioWeHardlyKnewYe
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Iíve defended Doug many times over the years.

But just as Iím not a fan of rewriting the past, I donít like rewriting the present.


Last edited by KallioWeHardlyKnewYe: 02-27-2008 at 05:37 PM.
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02-27-2008, 05:13 PM
  #68
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im not a gm.


if i could take a week off work, have a staff helping me. im sure i could come up with some different trade options. there are way to many variables to comprehend. im not going to insult GM's of the world by pretending i can pull one off the top of my head.


im just saying, placed in this trade deadline enviroment. all things being equal. i bet doug could of swung richards. you all want to have the 3rd doug crusade.


i was pleased doug was released. it had to happen, it was time. SH definatly has positives over doug. But i have to be fair and say doug has his as well

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02-27-2008, 05:28 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KallioWeHardlyKnewYe View Post
Iíve defended Doug many times over they years.

But just as Iím not a fan of rewriting the past, I donít like rewriting the present.

I'm just curious, but how what exactly do people consider Doug's bad mistakes.

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02-27-2008, 05:32 PM
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I think we all would be impressed how doug would have handled the Richards trade. (what he could have got him for) but if we kept Doug Zherdev may not be the Zherdev he is today or even be on this team so?

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02-27-2008, 05:38 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by brianhatesu View Post
I'm just curious, but how what exactly do people consider Doug's bad mistakes.
Oh boy. I mean this sincerely.

Duck!

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02-27-2008, 05:45 PM
  #72
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I'm just curious, but how what exactly do people consider Doug's bad mistakes.
breathing

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02-27-2008, 06:29 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by brianhatesu View Post
I'm just curious, but how what exactly do people consider Doug's bad mistakes.
Can I start from Day One?

"Sure, sounds good. We'll take a 9th-rounder and Jan Caloun in exchange for NOT taking Evgeni Nabokov in the expansion draft".

My problem with MacLean stemmed from the fact that he made moves with fans and media in mind. If the media said that there weren't enough "heart" guys, he'd get one (or someone who had received the label erroneously). If they said he didn't have enough tough defensemen, he'd get one (again, who had received the label erroneously). If they said that he didn't have enough guys who could wield a cutlass and use Gregorian chant, he'd somehow find one of those.

In all honesty, his trades weren't that bad. His free agent signings and post-first round drafting left a LOT to be desired. Signing Luke Richardson, who had done nothing in his career except show himself to be nothing more than a 5th/6th defenseman and ask him (well past his prime) to be on the top pairing was nuts. To sign a guy who had topped 15 points in a season once, including two years next to Mattias Ohlund, and ask him to score (since he sure couldn't do anything else) was nuts. To sign a long succession of players who had only shown that their best days were past and that their prime was middling at best to big contracts was the way he did things.

It reminds me of when Martin Lapointe first became a free agent, and his agent told the Detroit front office that they had to match a 4-year, $20 million offer they had received. One of the Wings' guys looked at the agent and said "You're a liar" or "You're lying". Minutes later, Lapointe signed with Boston for $5 million per year.

Many GMs in depth-heavy sports like baseball and football have had great success by focusing on and signing a larger number of the B-level players, rather than going after the A-level and coming away with nothing. Yet there are a few in hockey and too many fans who believe that it's impossible to have success without a bunch of All-Stars. Look at New Jersey during their run. Who was their #1 center? Who were their top forwards? After all, having Brodeur and Stevens is fine, but they still needed scoring.

If memory serves me correctly, their top center for their first Cup team was Neal Broten, with guys like John MacLean and Stephane Richer being asked to carry the offense. It was four lines of B-players with nary a star, and their veteran leader (and oldest player) was the 35-year-old Broten; there were only five 30-year-olds on a team that was praised for veteran leadership.

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02-27-2008, 06:45 PM
  #74
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What is missing here is the fact that Brule, Fritsche and OKT was an offer that Tampa viewed as "not in the ballpark". It wasn't legit and I tend to agree with them.

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02-27-2008, 06:50 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Palinka View Post
Can I start from Day One?

"Sure, sounds good. We'll take a 9th-rounder and Jan Caloun in exchange for NOT taking Evgeni Nabokov in the expansion draft".

My problem with MacLean stemmed from the fact that he made moves with fans and media in mind. If the media said that there weren't enough "heart" guys, he'd get one (or someone who had received the label erroneously). If they said he didn't have enough tough defensemen, he'd get one (again, who had received the label erroneously). If they said that he didn't have enough guys who could wield a cutlass and use Gregorian chant, he'd somehow find one of those.

In all honesty, his trades weren't that bad. His free agent signings and post-first round drafting left a LOT to be desired. Signing Luke Richardson, who had done nothing in his career except show himself to be nothing more than a 5th/6th defenseman and ask him (well past his prime) to be on the top pairing was nuts. To sign a guy who had topped 15 points in a season once, including two years next to Mattias Ohlund, and ask him to score (since he sure couldn't do anything else) was nuts. To sign a long succession of players who had only shown that their best days were past and that their prime was middling at best to big contracts was the way he did things.

It reminds me of when Martin Lapointe first became a free agent, and his agent told the Detroit front office that they had to match a 4-year, $20 million offer they had received. One of the Wings' guys looked at the agent and said "You're a liar" or "You're lying". Minutes later, Lapointe signed with Boston for $5 million per year.

Many GMs in depth-heavy sports like baseball and football have had great success by focusing on and signing a larger number of the B-level players, rather than going after the A-level and coming away with nothing. Yet there are a few in hockey and too many fans who believe that it's impossible to have success without a bunch of All-Stars. Look at New Jersey during their run. Who was their #1 center? Who were their top forwards? After all, having Brodeur and Stevens is fine, but they still needed scoring.

If memory serves me correctly, their top center for their first Cup team was Neal Broten, with guys like John MacLean and Stephane Richer being asked to carry the offense. It was four lines of B-players with nary a star, and their veteran leader (and oldest player) was the 35-year-old Broten; there were only five 30-year-olds on a team that was praised for veteran leadership.
Referencing the NJ Devils didn't help your relatively sound argument to that point...

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