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Malkin's ridiculous patience (upd: back at it)

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Old
02-17-2017, 10:54 AM
  #126
daver
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Originally Posted by MRY71 View Post
Definitely the Ross in 2013-2014. Was tied for first in points the day he went down with injury.
That's certainly not a half decent possibly let alone "definitely" especially when Crosby's PPG ended up being higher than it was when Malkin got injured and Malkin finished at a PPG of 1.20. Crosby was at a PPG of 1.35 before he dealt with an injury himself late season.

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02-17-2017, 11:00 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by daver View Post
Most of Malkin's missed time has come when scoring has been lower. Crosby has been at his best when Malkin is underperforming/underproducing like 2006/07, 2009/10, 2010/11 and 2012/13.

Mario and Wayne are at the same level. Crosby and Malkin are not.
Sid and Geno are as much at the same level as Mario and Wayne were (one could argue they're even closer).
How could Geno be that far from Sid (or Ovie for that matter) when :
-if he wins the Art Ross this year (far from being impossible with the form he's showed recently), he will have as many Art Rosses and Conn Smythes as Sid and Ovie COMBINED.I repeat, he will have as many Art Rosses and Conn Smythes as Sid and Ovie combined.
-he had one of the best Conn Smythe runs of all time
-has more PP goals than anyone in Pens history not named Mario


Last edited by yuri28: 02-17-2017 at 11:23 AM.
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02-17-2017, 12:54 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by yuri28 View Post
Sid and Geno are as much at the same level as Mario and Wayne were (one could argue they're even closer).
How could Geno be that far from Sid (or Ovie for that matter) when :
-if he wins the Art Ross this year (far from being impossible with the form he's showed recently), he will have as many Art Rosses and Conn Smythes as Sid and Ovie COMBINED.I repeat, he will have as many Art Rosses and Conn Smythes as Sid and Ovie combined.
-he had one of the best Conn Smythe runs of all time
-has more PP goals than anyone in Pens history not named Mario
Because if he finishes in the Top Ten this year it will his 4th Top Ten placing, I repeat, his 4th Top Ten placing vs. 9 for Crosby.

I know, I know, injuries have kept Geno from having complete seasons but uhhh....well I think you know where I am going with this.

Add in a 12% difference in career PPGs, a 20% difference in points, plus better 2-way play, and you have the better player. Crosby is a Top 5-10 talent, Malkin is a Top 20 talent.

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02-17-2017, 01:16 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by yuri28 View Post
Sid and Geno are as much at the same level as Mario and Wayne were (one could argue they're even closer).
How could Geno be that far from Sid (or Ovie for that matter) when :
-if he wins the Art Ross this year (far from being impossible with the form he's showed recently), he will have as many Art Rosses and Conn Smythes as Sid and Ovie COMBINED.I repeat, he will have as many Art Rosses and Conn Smythes as Sid and Ovie combined.
-he had one of the best Conn Smythe runs of all time
-has more PP goals than anyone in Pens history not named Mario
Even if Malkin won the art ross this season. And crosby finishes 2nd

Crosby, 1 1 2 2 3 3 3 3 6
Malkin 1 1 1 2

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02-17-2017, 03:54 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by daver View Post
Malkin's best full season and playoffs came in 2008/09 with Crosby.
How could it be any other way? Hard to advance in the playoffs when the $8.7 million #1a player is on the sidelines.

His best regular season was 2012, without Sid. Dominant season. Easy MVP. That (and his great Conn Smythe performance) is all anyone ever needs to see that's he's a Crosby-type talent (though I think Crosby is slightly more valuable overall).

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02-17-2017, 04:09 PM
  #131
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How could it be any other way? Hard to advance in the playoffs when the $8.7 million #1a player is on the sidelines.
That's kind of the point. Malkin has played extremely well with and without Crosby. That he would be more productive if he was the #1C on another team goes against conventional wisdom.

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02-17-2017, 05:57 PM
  #132
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That's kind of the point. Malkin has played extremely well with and without Crosby. That he would be more productive if he was the #1C on another team goes against conventional wisdom.
So does his 2012 season without Crosby. But there it is. More productive as a #1C. Career season.

My other point is that playing without Crosby or the equivalent cap share in the playoffs means you are playing shorthanded. If he was on another team that spent to the cap but didn't have Crosby specifically, I doubt his numbers are much different, but it's possible they're better than with Sid's team. It's not against conventional wisdom when he's already proven he can do that.

Crosby's certainly never had a great playoffs without Malkin. And he's been overshadowed by Malkin in his best one.

In short, I consider them in a similar tier. If Crosby's still clearly better career-wise, it's still very narrow. Just like I consider Gretzky narrowly superior to Lemieux. They still belong in the same tier even if one is narrowly but clearly better. Because, occasionally, the other guy is best in the league.

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02-17-2017, 06:15 PM
  #133
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I like Malkin a lot. But imo since his 100 best players snub people have been gloryfying him too much. Sid id is betterand theres no if or buts about that.No home country ot Crosbys shadow excuses, Crosby is better.

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02-17-2017, 06:22 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Saku11 View Post
I like Malkin a lot. But imo since his 100 best players snub people have been gloryfying him too much. Sid id is betterand theres no if or buts about that.No home country ot Crosbys shadow excuses, Crosby is better.
Glorifying him at the expense of Crosby? No way.

These two guys are the top two players in points per game (among qualified players). And neither one rides on any coattails to get there.

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02-17-2017, 06:25 PM
  #135
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Saku's back!

I haven't noticed you as much since Datsyuk no longer makes the headlines. I should probably may more attention to the McDavid, Malkin, and Burns threads though.

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02-17-2017, 06:25 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by tom_servo View Post
Glorifying him at the expense of Crosby? No way.

These two guys are the top two players in points per game (among qualified players). And neither one rides on any coattails to get there.
He doesn't like anyone near Crosby.

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02-17-2017, 06:30 PM
  #137
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Malkin receives disproportionate subordination to Crosby because he's on Crosby's team. Yes, I believe that Crosby is slightly better. But that also applies to every other player in the league. Like Crosby, Malkin is also better than those guys (IMO). It's just a funny thing to have perhaps the two best centers on one team.

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02-17-2017, 06:33 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Saku11 View Post
I like Malkin a lot. But imo since his 100 best players snub people have been gloryfying him too much. Sid id is betterand theres no if or buts about that.No home country ot Crosbys shadow excuses, Crosby is better.

Yeah everyone thinks crosby is better but everyone thinks malkin is a top 3 player since he got in the league too. Should of been in the 100 right after Sid and Ovie

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02-18-2017, 04:57 AM
  #139
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Originally Posted by tom_servo View Post
Glorifying him at the expense of Crosby? .
Theres been far too much "when he is he ON he is the best player in the world" talk. I dont agree with that. Crosby`s is still better too.

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02-18-2017, 05:38 AM
  #140
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So does his 2012 season without Crosby. But there it is. More productive as a #1C. Career season.

My other point is that playing without Crosby or the equivalent cap share in the playoffs means you are playing shorthanded. If he was on another team that spent to the cap but didn't have Crosby specifically, I doubt his numbers are much different, but it's possible they're better than with Sid's team. It's not against conventional wisdom when he's already proven he can do that.

Crosby's certainly never had a great playoffs without Malkin. And he's been overshadowed by Malkin in his best one.

In short, I consider them in a similar tier. If Crosby's still clearly better career-wise, it's still very narrow. Just like I consider Gretzky narrowly superior to Lemieux. They still belong in the same tier even if one is narrowly but clearly better. Because, occasionally, the other guy is best in the league.
My point is that Malkin has had a much larger sample of games to show that he has the talent to put up more points than he has if he wasn't the #2 guy in Pittsburgh. Frankly it's ridiculous to think that his true potential has been hidden all these years because of the #2 dynamic. He has had the better linemates some years, and has been given the role of #1 offensive C over Crosby many years too.

IMO, the numbers speak for themselves. Both players do not need each other to produce but I don't see Malkin doing any better if he was on own team as the undisputed #1C.

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02-18-2017, 05:42 AM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Saku11 View Post
Theres been far too much "when he is he ON he is the best player in the world" talk. I dont agree with that. Crosby`s is still better too.
Some people mistake aesthetics for better. There are no stats to back up Malkin being better when he is ON. It's not like he a number of games or streaks of point production that are better than Crosby's best.

For sure their peak play is very close, and is among the very best all-time outside of the Big Four.

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02-18-2017, 11:35 AM
  #142
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Because if he finishes in the Top Ten this year it will his 4th Top Ten placing, I repeat, his 4th Top Ten placing vs. 9 for Crosby.

I know, I know, injuries have kept Geno from having complete seasons but uhhh....well I think you know where I am going with this.

Add in a 12% difference in career PPGs, a 20% difference in points, plus better 2-way play, and you have the better player. Crosby is a Top 5-10 talent, Malkin is a Top 20 talent.
Their two-way game is not that far apart, I think you (and some people, especially recently) are overrating Sid's two-way game a bit.
Malkin had a revolving door of linemates his whole career and most of these players were really not good players, so he had to do a heavy lifting almost his whole career, outside of couple seasons with Neal. Sid at least had stability in Kunitz (and not revolving door every season) and Kunitz was a very good player in his prime years, but Sid played with not good players, too, of course, just not as much. Malkin's facing 2nd pair Dman most of the time, but he's playing with 2nd or 3rd Pens D pair, too, not first. Besides, him facing first pairings is not uncommon.

List of Geno's linemates over the years, it's like a generator of random names (it's from 2015, so there's should be new names as well).

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02-18-2017, 01:20 PM
  #143
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Their two-way game is not that far apart, I think you (and some people, especially recently) are overrating Sid's two-way game a bit.
Malkin had a revolving door of linemates his whole career and most of these players were really not good players, so he had to do a heavy lifting almost his whole career, outside of couple seasons with Neal. Sid at least had stability in Kunitz (and not revolving door every season) and Kunitz was a very good player in his prime years, but Sid played with not good players, too, of course, just not as much. Malkin's facing 2nd pair Dman most of the time, but he's playing with 2nd or 3rd Pens D pair, too, not first. Besides, him facing first pairings is not uncommon.

List of Geno's linemates over the years, it's like a generator of random names (it's from 2015, so there's should be new names as well).
Usually the opposition tries to put their best dman against Malkin and best checking forward against Crosby. Only recently have the linemates been a little close to equal. It's funny the fan-boys were recently whining that Hornqvist was slowing Sid down and to get him off his line and when they finally did......... Sid has been in a cold spell and they're whining to get him back on. Linemates make a huge difference, it's not all one guy.

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02-18-2017, 01:26 PM
  #144
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Some people mistake aesthetics for better. There are no stats to back up Malkin being better when he is ON. It's not like he a number of games or streaks of point production that are better than Crosby's best.

For sure their peak play is very close, and is among the very best all-time outside of the Big Four.
I watch Pittsburgh all the time and can tell you Malkin is as good as Crosby or the difference is so minute it isn't worth talking about. If the guy could learn to take faceoffs he could probably get more ice time and make up the stagger IMHO.

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02-18-2017, 02:59 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by Elite goaltending View Post
All in all, Sid is the best player and he's better than anyone, no one argues with that, but stop pretending like Malkin isn't great. He's a point per game player every year in his career, exсept one season. If not for injuries, he would finish higer in points every season. His recent years injures came, when he was in top 3-10 in scoring at the moment. He's right there with Crosby and Ovechkin over the decade, but frequent injuries/nagging injuries affected him a lot more.
OK, it will easy to stop pretending considering I wasn't doing anything close to this in the first place.

No, he is not right there with Crosby. He is half a tier below. Yes, he has had injuries but none came when he was actually leading the league in PPG. Crosby has had four partial seasons where he lead the league in PPG and has much higher full season finishes.


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02-18-2017, 03:11 PM
  #146
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I watch Pittsburgh all the time and can tell you Malkin is as good as Crosby or the difference is so minute it isn't worth talking about.
You would think the stats after all these years would back this up. In their 11 seasons together, Malkin has outscored Crosby only three times and outPPGed him once. In their nine playoff runs, Malkin has outscored Crosby three times and outPPGed him twice. Crosby's career PPG is 12% better or 11 points per 82 games.

That seems like something to talk about.

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02-19-2017, 10:27 AM
  #147
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I watch Pittsburgh all the time and can tell you Malkin is as good as Crosby or the difference is so minute it isn't worth talking about. If the guy could learn to take faceoffs he could probably get more ice time and make up the stagger IMHO.
I watch them all the time too, and I agree. I think poster that saying "he is half a tier below" doesn't watch the Pens much at all.
As I said, Malkin's frequent injuries is the only reason he doesn't have higher numbers, but he's a ppg player every season, except one, anyway. And he had to carry his linemates almost his whole career, plus adjusting to the new linemates every time.

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02-19-2017, 10:36 AM
  #148
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The only thing that makes Malkin worse than Crosby is his inconsistency in my opinion and also being kinda "dumb" sometimes when it comes to taking Penaltys and stuff. Not saying that Crosby never does it or did it, but I think Crosby is more mature on the ice nowadays. However he is definetly up there with Crosby and Ovechkin over the past decade and has been, at times, the best player in the NHL. I would put him 3rd behind Crosby and Ovechkin, but he definetly is a generational player and would have probably been the 1st line center in 29 other teams for most of the time.


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Old
02-19-2017, 10:39 AM
  #149
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OK, it will easy to stop pretending considering I wasn't doing anything close to this in the first place.

No, he is not right there with Crosby. He is half a tier below. Yes, he has had injuries but none came when he was actually leading the league in PPG. Crosby has had four partial seasons where he lead the league in PPG and has much higher full season finishes.
As I said, his injures came when he was top 3 in scoring at the moment. (1 point behide the lead in one season and tied for the lead in other season, with less games played than others. If only he could stay healthy.)

Source http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=751

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02-19-2017, 11:12 AM
  #150
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I watch them all the time too, and I agree. I think poster that saying "he is half a tier below" doesn't watch the Pens much at all.
As I said, Malkin's frequent injuries is the only reason he doesn't have higher numbers, but he's a ppg player every season, except one, anyway. And he had to carry his linemates almost his whole career, plus adjusting to the new linemates every time.
So what should we make of Crosby's better PPG almost every year, while also having to carry different linemates, while facing the other team's best defensive units?

IMO, 12 more points a year/82 games is enough to place Crosby on at least a half tier above. If that doesn't do it for you then there's nothing left to discuss.

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