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The Red Wings are in the worst shape of any NHL Franchise

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Old
02-17-2017, 11:29 AM
  #126
Ricky Bobby
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Detroit is an absolute mess and they're looking at a 5+ year rebuild.

It's gonna get worse before it gets better for the Wings.

There top 2 scorers is a guy in Vanek who could be gone after this season and a 36 year old Zetterberg. There # 1 Dman in Green is likely also gone after next season.

They've got a lot of really bad contract through. There cap situation is also bleak for next season and the season after.

As for the quality prospects a lot of fans are touting most of them won't amount to anything and it's debateable whether any of them will become top line/top pairing talent that can be part of the top 4/5 piece on a contender.

This is a weak draft and players drafted this draft will take at least a few years to be NHL ready and then usually another few years before they make a noticeable impact.

Although Larkin + Mantha are good pieces it's unlikely they'll become top 5 nucleus on a winning team types. More likely they become very good secondary types.

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Old
02-17-2017, 11:31 AM
  #127
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Team without a top 10 pick in 26 years is looking thin on elite young talent, very interesting hot take there OP.

All things considered, they've set themselves up for a relatively quick rebuilding process. Athanasiou/Svechnikov/Mantha/Larkin/Mrazek/Hronek/Cholowski are solid young building blocks and some prime veterans such as Tatar/Nyquist/Dekeyser/Abdelkader/Helm/Nielsen/etc will help them along. I see the Wings having 1 or 2 rough seasons going forward before you start seeing a real turnaround and a change in public perception about their young talent.
They're on the brink of adding their highest draft pick since the start of the streak, and as potential sellers at the deadline they could add some extra prospects as well, that's a very promising thought for a team that has generally been drafting really well even with their previously limited resources.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benedict Kovalchuk View Post
Canucks youth blows that of the other two out of the water, and actually seems to be performing and improving at a decent rate, Virtanen aside. Meanwhile all the youth of Colorado appears to be absolutely lost out there(with Rantanen likely joining soon at this rate), and Colorado may have to blow it up anyways despite their core being so young. Detroit has next to no youth to speak of outside Larkin and maaaybe Mantha, and has a very, very long way to go. I can see the Canucks turning it around first, easily.
The fact you say "maaaybe Mantha" shows you don't really know what you're talking about. Mantha is not only outplaying Larkin badly this year, he's looking way more impressive than Larkin did last season too.
And for what it's worth, Hronek is having a better year in the OHL and had a better WJC than Juolevi did. Wings aren't without promising youth.

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02-17-2017, 11:54 AM
  #128
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Maybe at this point it's the wings, but the Avs must be the worst development team in the NHL. All their top picks have become meh after having huge potential.

Wings have it right. Over cook, bring them up and shelter them if needed, put them in positions to succeed.

I think the Wings are competitive before the avs unless there are serious changes in the front office.

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02-17-2017, 12:00 PM
  #129
Ether Prodigy
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It will be really interesting to see how their first legitimate rebuild in several decades goes.

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Old
02-17-2017, 12:14 PM
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SprDaVE View Post
It's definitely almost inevitable to go through a rebuild, especially in a salary cap world.

The sooner your team can realize they need to rebuild, the better/faster you can get back to where you were.

I know this all too well as a Leaf fan. So many wasted years of desperation.

Unfortunately for the Red Wings, they signed a few long-term contracts for questionable players. It's not going to be easy to get rid of some of them. They have 66M commited (if you count Frazen) in 15 players going into next season... that's awful for a poor team.
To the bolded: there are those on our board who argue that Toronto has been rebuilding for 10+ years and only now has something to show for it, so we should not look to teams like the Leafs for a blueprint.

But in my opinion the true rebuild began only recently with the Shanaplan, and everything before that was "rebuilding on the fly", the very thing those people have been advocating. Seems to me that once management made a plan and got all parties to buy in, the actual turnaround was much shorter.

What has been the case from your perspective?

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Old
02-17-2017, 12:30 PM
  #131
Pizzarena91
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Its good to see some due criticism on Holland. I hope the last 5-6 years tarnish his legacy for good, its well deserved with the mess he has made of things. The biggest uncertainty though is if this team takes this as a sign to rebuild. I am not entirely certain this team isn't still in the "get in and anything can happen" / "we like or team" mode that we get to hear every off season.

I think the key milestones to hitting bottom were
  • Lidstrom retiring and trading a 1st round pick for Kyle Quincey to replace him
  • No longer being a destination for UFA
  • Yzerman being aloud to walk
  • Signing Todd Bertuzzi signaling a new era of stop gap contracts
  • Re-signing Dan Cleary about 4 times to many
  • Actually whitnessing a top line of Cleary - Daytsuk - Abdelkader
  • Signing 4th liner Justin Abdelkader to 7 years top 6 money
  • The team bing so bad that Daytsuk broke his contract to escape
  • Trading down in the draft when your team has no elite talent.

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Old
02-17-2017, 01:49 PM
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Syckle78 View Post
Don't forget trading a 1st round pick for kyle ****ing quincey after losing him for nothing after drafting him in the first round. If Jim benning pulled something like that there would be a long thread on main boards mocking him mercilessly.
Small point but Kyle Quincey was not a 1st round pick. He was actually drafted in the 4th round, 132nd overall. Losing him sucked, especially since it was done to make room for keeping the corpse of a Gris Chelios, but he was not a highly regarded prospect and had no real provencNHL track record when he hit waivers. He really blossomed after getting out of Detroit

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02-17-2017, 02:40 PM
  #133
Oddbob
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FissionFire View Post
Small point but Kyle Quincey was not a 1st round pick. He was actually drafted in the 4th round, 132nd overall. Losing him sucked, especially since it was done to make room for keeping the corpse of a Gris Chelios, but he was not a highly regarded prospect and had no real provencNHL track record when he hit waivers. He really blossomed after getting out of Detroit
They are actually saying Detroit traded a 1st away to get Quincey, to bring him back, not where he was drafted.

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Old
02-17-2017, 02:45 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Oddbob View Post
They are actually saying Detroit traded a 1st away to get Quincey, to bring him back, not where he was drafted.
FF is saying that the guy said we drafted him in the first and then traded a first for him. He's pointing out that we originally took him in the fourth round. Just something small he pointed out, carry on

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02-17-2017, 02:47 PM
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AD1066 View Post
To the bolded: there are those on our board who argue that Toronto has been rebuilding for 10+ years and only now has something to show for it, so we should not look to teams like the Leafs for a blueprint.

But in my opinion the true rebuild began only recently with the Shanaplan, and everything before that was "rebuilding on the fly", the very thing those people have been advocating. Seems to me that once management made a plan and got all parties to buy in, the actual turnaround was much shorter.

What has been the case from your perspective?
Apologies for jumping in to answer this, but I think you touch on the core of the matter in your own post. When the Leafs rebuild started can be debated, but whenever someone talks about going the Toronto route now it refers to the process described as the Shanaplan. What came before was not a requisite for the Shanaplan, a team can go that route without spending a decade of futility to learn the lesson.

A romantic part of me buried somewhere deep within hoped that Detroit would find a way to actually do rebuild on the fly, but that's mostly because I hate to see such a historic run actually end.

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Old
02-17-2017, 02:57 PM
  #136
Luigi Lemieux
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Originally Posted by Birko19 View Post
While I hope they take a dive in the standings and get a high pick, they're 9 points out of the playoffs and 25 games to go, it's still more than possible to make it.
He's right to say irrelevance though. Squeaking into the playoffs as WC2 would only grant the Wings the honor of getting steamrolled by Washington.

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Old
02-17-2017, 03:17 PM
  #137
HELWild
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
What do they have going for them? A couple ok younger guys in Larkin and Mantha? It looks like it'll be a long rebuild.
The hype of playoff streak was so huge and stupid that they forgot to rebuild. Now they are in a situation where their old guns are out of date and young guns aren't producing enough.


Last edited by HELWild: 02-17-2017 at 03:54 PM.
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Old
02-17-2017, 03:18 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by DamonDRW View Post
It seems what most people here don't understand is that Detroit hasn't started the rebuild yet. This year will be the first we miss the play-offs and will have a chance to draft as high as 1-3OA.

At the same time we already have a really good young supporting cast in Larkin, Anastasiou, Mantha, Mrazek, DeKeyser, Qoulette and some decent prospects in Saarijarvi, Svechnikov, Hicketts, Bertuzzi, Cholowski. On top we have vets for sale, Vanek, Green, Tatar, Nyquist, Howard, Smith that may(!) return two 1st and a couple of seconds this and next year.

Now, we suck but we're in extremely good position to start rebuild. The trick is to do it properly.
Seriously people arent getting this. This will literally be the first year of a rebuild in Detroit and having that amount of good youngsters is very rare for teams starting a rebuild.

Has Holland been brutal? Definitely. But its not like Detroit has been awful for years and are just finally figuring out that they need to rebuild. Most of these fans saying things teams have barely made playoffs or been a threat all either. I mean theres a bunch of fans in here talking about how awful Detroit is but 5-10 years ago their teams were missing playoffs regularly and looked a lot worst when they started their rebuilds.

I've seen Toronto fans, Blackhawks fans and others talking about it. It wasnt long that Nik Hagman was Toronto's leading scorer. But took much longer to acquire talent like Mantha,Larkin and Mrazek. I'm not sure Holland is the guy to oversee a rebuild, but hes literally never been part of one. He could be the best GM in the league at scouting top 5 picks and noone would know. Its obvious hes going to get a chance to rebuild the team

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Old
02-17-2017, 03:37 PM
  #139
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People talking about our "nice young pieces", our prospect pool is very shallow right now. 5 years ago we had both quality and depth, now most of those guys have gone on to varying degrees of NHL success, but none of them have gone on to be elite. We hoped that Tatar and Nyquist would be the next Datsyuk and Zetterberg - turns out they were the next Hudler and Filpulla.

Mantha *might* go on to be elite - depends how much he wants it. Svech has the making of a good player. Bertuzzi is a ten a penny bottom sixer.

Our D corps is horrific. Dekeyser is out of his depth, Kronwall is done, and then we have a bunch of 6/7 guys. Green is the only one worth a damn and he will be gone next year at the latest.

Then we have all our terrible contracts. Franzen LTIR, Kronner and Z may join at any moment. Weiss buyout. Then all the terrible deals handed out to depth players like Ericsson, Helm, Abdelkader and Glendening. Highest salary in NHL for 3rd worst team.

And on top of it, we have management that isn't prepared to commit to a rebuild. We're done, but with moving into a new barn, the rebuild on the fly whilst trying to scrape into the playoffs philosophy continues. Until Holland admits that it's time to burn it down, we're just going to keep on delaying the inevitable. As someone else said, we need to just rip off the plaster so the wound can start to heal.

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Old
02-17-2017, 03:48 PM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HELWild View Post
The hype of playoff streak was so huge and stupid that they forgot to rebuild. Now they are in a situation where they their old guns are out of date and young guns aren't producing enough.
Meh, hit on a few high picks and they'll be right back in the thick of things. Unlike a lot of teams that bottom out for top picks there don't have to rebuild the entire roster.

Obviously they will need to get lucky with their top picks, but that holds true for any team rebuilding.

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Old
02-17-2017, 04:05 PM
  #141
MagicianRules
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Agreed. Nobody could replace his shut down skills. Not even Pavel Datsyuk could score when he was around.
I'm putting this as one of the best comments I've ever read.

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Old
02-17-2017, 06:07 PM
  #142
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In terms of "modern day" types of dynasty within the cap world the Oilers certainly have the building blocks to be a "dynasty" type team. Of course they are not right there yet and likely will never be. Even modern day Dynasties are extremely rare.

Detroit "put" themselves in this position.

Detroit games are terribly officiated almost always in their favor. They have built their team to make the playoffs but just barely, and only by using every trick in the book. There luck in the draft seems to have finally run out. There stars are old or gone.

They should have a long rebuild. They were one of the best teams for an extremely long time and the cupboards are understandably bare.
how come every thread has to be highjacked into a "look how great the Oilers are gonna be" discussion? I have been hearing that for a decade now!

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Old
02-17-2017, 06:13 PM
  #143
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There is definitely a tendency for detroit youngsters to be overrated, perhaps due to the history of drafting zetterberg and datsyuk late.

But lately, nyquist, tatar, larkin, mrazek, various dmen of the past 5 years etc have all been wildly overrated. Larkin was supposed to be an elite 1c based on 30 games, mrazek was a vezina caliber goalie after 30 games etc. It calls into question a bit whether the next crop of prospects are similarly overrated.

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02-17-2017, 07:56 PM
  #144
Oddbob
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Toews Era View Post
There is definitely a tendency for detroit youngsters to be overrated, perhaps due to the history of drafting zetterberg and datsyuk late.

But lately, nyquist, tatar, larkin, mrazek, various dmen of the past 5 years etc have all been wildly overrated. Larkin was supposed to be an elite 1c based on 30 games, mrazek was a vezina caliber goalie after 30 games etc. It calls into question a bit whether the next crop of prospects are similarly overrated.
And you laughably believe Toews is in Yzerman territory of talent. Not even close!

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Old
02-17-2017, 08:06 PM
  #145
Gnashville
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Toews Era View Post
There is definitely a tendency for detroit youngsters to be overrated, perhaps due to the history of drafting zetterberg and datsyuk late.

But lately, nyquist, tatar, larkin, mrazek, various dmen of the past 5 years etc have all been wildly overrated. Larkin was supposed to be an elite 1c based on 30 games, mrazek was a vezina caliber goalie after 30 games etc. It calls into question a bit whether the next crop of prospects are similarly overrated.
This is pretty much it. Because they struck gold 20 yrs ago, everyone thinks they are this unstoppable force. Most of the personnel they had then is gone now different coached, GM's and scouts. If you look at the best drafting team thread here they are still considered top 5 because of what they did in the 1990's Teams do hit a down cycle and has to rebuild it happens in all pro sports.

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And you laughably believe Toews is in Yzerman territory of talent. Not even close!
Where did he say that?


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Old
02-17-2017, 08:33 PM
  #146
Pavels Dog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Toews Era View Post
There is definitely a tendency for detroit youngsters to be overrated, perhaps due to the history of drafting zetterberg and datsyuk late.

But lately, nyquist, tatar, larkin, mrazek, various dmen of the past 5 years etc have all been wildly overrated. Larkin was supposed to be an elite 1c based on 30 games, mrazek was a vezina caliber goalie after 30 games etc. It calls into question a bit whether the next crop of prospects are similarly overrated.
Ehh, most of their prospects seem vastly underrated until they hit the NHL.
Larkin was called a product of Hyman, Mantha was labeled a bust, Svechnikov is currently put outside the 1st round in 15 re-drafts, Mrazek was consistently ranked behind Gibson/Vasi/etc, Tatar and Nyquist got no attention, I don't think anyone mentioned Athanasiou's name until he started scoring highlight reel goals at the NHL level, Hronek is completely under the radar, etc.
Can't think of anyone other than Larkin in the last decade that actually had hype before hitting the NHL. Maybe some have been overrated in their early NHL showings, but that happens with all youngsters, nothing specific with the Wings.
For the record, Mrazek and Larkin aren't done as players because of a rough season. Seems hypocritical to say they were overrated because of "30" games only to now underrate them based on the same.

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Old
02-17-2017, 08:41 PM
  #147
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And you laughably believe Toews is in Yzerman territory of talent. Not even close!
In which post?

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Old
02-17-2017, 08:50 PM
  #148
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Ehh, most of their prospects seem vastly underrated until they hit the NHL.
Larkin was called a product of Hyman, Mantha was labeled a bust, Svechnikov is currently put outside the 1st round in 15 re-drafts, Mrazek was consistently ranked behind Gibson/Vasi/etc, Tatar and Nyquist got no attention, I don't think anyone mentioned Athanasiou's name until he started scoring highlight reel goals at the NHL level, Hronek is completely under the radar, etc.
Can't think of anyone other than Larkin in the last decade that actually had hype before hitting the NHL. Maybe some have been overrated in their early NHL showings, but that happens with all youngsters, nothing specific with the Wings.
For the record, Mrazek and Larkin aren't done as players because of a rough season. Seems hypocritical to say they were overrated because of "30" games only to now underrate them based on the same.
The difference is baseline expectations. Most players are middling nhlers, as larkin will likely be, not top 5-10 centers.

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02-17-2017, 08:54 PM
  #149
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Oh well, it's their turn. They've had a good 20+ years.

They have smart management, they should recognize what they need to do soon.

I don't know how much value Zetterberg has with so many years left on his contract at a decent hit, but he would help out a lot of teams down the stretch and in the playoffs if the Wings want to deal him.

Vanek as well, but he's been down that road as a rental and hasn't work out great. Their biggest problem is the usual deadline bait players who would hold some value all have too many years on their contract to really bring in a good return. Abdelkader at (lol) 6 more years... Helm 4 more years, Nielsen 5 more years, Zetterberg 4 more. Mike Green have some value with only 1 year left.

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02-17-2017, 09:01 PM
  #150
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This team can't afford to blow it up and tank. This is why they are holding off as long as possible to be competitive and fight for a playoff spot. Think about, it the new arena is coming, ticket prices increase. Go ahead and tell your dwindling casuals that the team will suck for the next 3 or 4 years. Don't misunderstand me, i am not calling Detroit fans casuals, but casuals are who fill up the building and they don't want to watch a loser. Anyone remember Detroit's attendance in the 80's? it was Phoenix coyotes level bad some seasons. They are trying to hold off being terrible for as long as they can, even if they have a small chance at a playoff berth they will take that small chance every season.

Most Fan bases won't put up with watching a bottom feeder, The Canadian franchises are the rare exceptions cause Canadians like wasting money watching mediocrity, its why the CBC is still going strong.

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