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Roster Building Thread Part XXXVI: Defense wins championships & we don't have any!!

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Old
02-17-2017, 01:12 PM
  #801
Antithesis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oscar Lindberg View Post
You know, I'm a guy that is not happy the Rangers have wasted Lundqvist's prime years putting a garbage defense around him

But damn it's just a big of a shame that the Rangers have wasted a part of McDonagh's prime with a terrible partner. He's a top 15 guy and if he had a better partner would be in talks for the Norris
Real Norris caliber defensemen can play with pretty much whoever and be effective.

That said, you always look better with a good player next to you. See Stevens-Neidermayer.

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02-17-2017, 01:14 PM
  #802
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McDonagh has had THE worst 1st pairing D-man as his partner though, a guy that's barely been an NHL calibre D-man for most of it.

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02-17-2017, 01:14 PM
  #803
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Originally Posted by Antithesis View Post
Real Norris caliber defensemen can play with pretty much whoever and be effective.

That said, you always look better with a good player next to you. See Stevens-Neidermayer.
Girardi is the worst defenseman in the league. it's not possible to look good with him anymore. McDonagh can (and has) effectively carried almost every other partner he's had here. Girardi is the only one. and Yandle couldn't do it either with Girardi getting the easiest situations in his career.

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02-17-2017, 01:33 PM
  #804
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McD is still a very good defensemen but I think his body has taken a toll.

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Old
02-17-2017, 01:35 PM
  #805
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Originally Posted by Antithesis View Post
Real Norris caliber defensemen can play with pretty much whoever and be effective.

That said, you always look better with a good player next to you. See Stevens-Neidermayer.
Are you really comparing Girardi to Stevens and or Niedermayer?

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02-17-2017, 01:38 PM
  #806
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Are you really comparing Girardi to Stevens and or Niedermayer?
Doesn't look that way to me

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02-17-2017, 02:17 PM
  #807
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The best way to proceed would be to trade MZA+Klein for Dumba, and Nash+Grabner for a 45/50 point forward under 26 years old. Keeps the team competitive and rebuilds the youth. Getting Mika, Vesey, Dumba and one more solid young player in a single year would be quite a coup for the team's future.

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02-17-2017, 02:18 PM
  #808
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Are you really comparing Girardi to Stevens and or Niedermayer?
No, sorry if that wasn't clear. I'm saying that's an ideal situation.

Lidstrom played with guys like Jason Wooley during his 7 norris run.

Chara was able to make Wade Redden look like an NHL top 3 defenseman during their years in Ottawa.

I do know what the Corsi people say, but I don't buy that Girardi is the worst defenseman in the league. Undoubtedly the worst defenseman to get the responsibility and salary he does, though.

I'd put Girardi ahead of

Gryba
Borowiecki
Garrison
Wideman

And probably a few others so forgettable that I don't recall off the top of my head.

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Old
02-17-2017, 02:26 PM
  #809
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Originally Posted by Antithesis View Post
No, sorry if that wasn't clear. I'm saying that's an ideal situation.

Lidstrom played with guys like Jason Wooley during his 7 norris run.

Chara was able to make Wade Redden look like an NHL top 3 defenseman during their years in Ottawa.

I do know what the Corsi people say, but I don't buy that Girardi is the worst defenseman in the league. Undoubtedly the worst defenseman to get the responsibility and salary he does, though.

I'd put Girardi ahead of

Gryba
Borowiecki
Garrison
Wideman

And probably a few others so forgettable that I don't recall off the top of my head.
Redden was actually really good in Ottawa though

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02-17-2017, 02:30 PM
  #810
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Originally Posted by Antithesis View Post
No, sorry if that wasn't clear. I'm saying that's an ideal situation.

Lidstrom played with guys like Jason Wooley during his 7 norris run.

Chara was able to make Wade Redden look like an NHL top 3 defenseman during their years in Ottawa.

I do know what the Corsi people say, but I don't buy that Girardi is the worst defenseman in the league. Undoubtedly the worst defenseman to get the responsibility and salary he does, though.

I'd put Girardi ahead of

Gryba
Borowiecki
Garrison
Wideman

And probably a few others so forgettable that I don't recall off the top of my head.
I think Chara's regular partner was Volchenkov

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Old
02-17-2017, 02:34 PM
  #811
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Redden was actually really good in Ottawa though
Yeah, he was. There were rumors regarding something that possibly had an effect on his decline once he came to us. Can't really be specific about it because it'd be libel, but let's just say that his decline makes sense when taking it into account.

Also, pretty sure his mom died and that didn't help either.

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02-17-2017, 02:35 PM
  #812
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Comparing Redden to Girardi is completely off the wall. Redden has more talent in his pinky finger.

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02-17-2017, 02:36 PM
  #813
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Originally Posted by Kahuna Nanu View Post
Yeah, he was. There were rumors regarding something that possibly had an affect on his decline once he came to us. Can't really be specific about it because it'd be libel, but let's just say that his decline makes sense when taking it into account.

Also, pretty sure his mom died and that didn't help either.
I don't think he was very good in his last couple seasons in Ottawa, either

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02-17-2017, 02:37 PM
  #814
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I don't think he was very good in his last couple seasons in Ottawa, either
Yeah, his decline started a couple seasons prior to signing with us. It was very gradual, he didn't just go from a top pair defenseman to being a third pair defenseman in one season.

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Old
02-17-2017, 02:38 PM
  #815
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Comparing Redden to Girardi is completely off the wall. Redden has more talent in his pinky finger.
Agreed. I think people over exaggerate how bad Redden was with us. He certainly didn't live up to his contract, but he wasn't an utter tire fire out there like Girardi is 90% of the time he's on the ice.

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02-17-2017, 02:43 PM
  #816
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Originally Posted by Kahuna Nanu View Post
Agreed. I think people over exaggerate how bad Redden was with us. He certainly didn't live up to his contract, but he wasn't an utter tire fire out there like Girardi is 90% of the time he's on the ice.
This, if Redden was on a 3x3 contract or something similar he would have been hailed as a very good D-man.

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Old
02-17-2017, 02:50 PM
  #817
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i think the most important thing is if we get a Dman are they going to play with mcdonagh or are they going to be attached to staal

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02-17-2017, 02:56 PM
  #818
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Originally Posted by Kahuna Nanu View Post
Agreed. I think people over exaggerate how bad Redden was with us. He certainly didn't live up to his contract, but he wasn't an utter tire fire out there like Girardi is 90% of the time he's on the ice.
Same is Rosival. They weren't terrible just horrifically overpaid. Girardi is both.

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Old
02-17-2017, 03:29 PM
  #819
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Same is Rosival. They weren't terrible just horrifically overpaid. Girardi is both.
Rozi was very serviceable bordering on good when he was not injured. Ranger fans always have their whipping dogs.

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02-17-2017, 03:49 PM
  #820
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i think the most important thing is if we get a Dman are they going to play with mcdonagh or are they going to be attached to staal
Exactly. Are we getting someone to carry Staal around? If we are, then we'd still be getting McDonagh-Girardi until the offseason when hopefully Gorton takes away Girardi from AV.

I still believe all McDonagh needs is someone of the ilk of Clendening. Not saying he's a top pairing guy, but he isn't an albatross. He can move the puck. We don't need a Shattenkirk to play with McDonagh, even though it would form an elite top pairing.

If they move for Franson at the deadline, or even the offseason on a decent deal, I'd still like:

McDonagh-Franson
Skjei-XXXX
Staal-Clendening

That's an upgrade, even if Klein is kept in that spot. Trade Holden to the highest bidder. Buyout Girardi. Trade Klein.

If they move a forward for Vatanen, move Franson down to the 2nd or even 3rd pair as Skjei and Clendening have worked well together.

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Old
02-17-2017, 03:51 PM
  #821
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Rozi was very serviceable bordering on good when he was not injured. Ranger fans always have their whipping dogs.
Exactly... Rozy was good. Doesn't deserve to be mentioned with Redden. Was just a whipping boy.

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Old
02-17-2017, 05:54 PM
  #822
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Its just silly to talk about Girardi as the worst D in the league. He is reliable and consistent, one of th best shot blockers in the league. Tremendous attitude.

And he has big flaws in his game, some execution of his is borderline comical when he throw the puck around like a fertilizer thrower. His mobility is horrible, but his positioning is great OTOH which enables him to keep up pretty well.

Who is the worst D in the league then? Nobody of course, it all depends on role, partner, style of play and what not. But the thing is still, there is a whole bunch of Ds in this league for whom every shift is a struggle just to get by. Who fights in every puck battle to not be exposed, who never has time with the puck. Simply, who just never can relax on the ice. It's more a mental state than anything else. Like how many Ds over a 24 month period gets a from a few to like 50 games and then never another shot in this league? 50? 100? How many play less than 200 games in their career? The league is populated of these type of players to a pretty larger extent. You don't get comfort, consistency and what not from these guys. Like as a teammate, you are aware of these guys all the time. How will they do? You don't know what to expect and so often. Affects everyone.

Girardi is far from ideal. But let's say there was a draft of players for a new hockey league. Money and cap doesn't matter. The league will go on for say 3 years. 30x6=180 Ds. Where is Girardi drafted? Not high, that's for sure. But no way that he goes like below 150. Maybe between 100-150. If we hold a draft under the same conditions but the other positions aren't sat and we are looking for a partner for McD. Taking into account that's G has chemistry with him, he would maybe go in like a 60-70 range. Hence, he isn't the worst D in the league, not even remotely to be honest.

From another perspective, we want to be the best team in the league. Should we look to upgrade Girardi? Absolutely. Can we be the best team in the league with him? It might not be possible. But that's another issue...

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02-17-2017, 06:00 PM
  #823
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He's by far the worst top pairing D-man in the league over the last 3 years, AINEC.

He might not actually be the worst D-man, but it's pretty much impossible to ignore the fact that he's the worst D-man in comparison to his usage. He's so far overmatched out there that it's comical to watch him play at times.

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Old
02-17-2017, 06:19 PM
  #824
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More Avalanche watching.


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Old
02-17-2017, 06:19 PM
  #825
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More Avalanche watching.

Six-way trade?!

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