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The KHL Discuss the Continental Hockey League (Kontinentalnaya Hokkeynaya Liga).

KHL Expansion Part VII

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Old
02-09-2017, 04:07 AM
  #551
alko
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Originally Posted by hansomreiste View Post
LOL... One Korean and one Japanese team, maybe... But another Chinese team? Seriously? What are they even trying to do?
Why not? China is big, very big country. With lot of money. And that is what count in KHL at first place. Yes, you can have another team from traditional country like Slovakia (there was talk about Zvolen or Kosice). But look to Slovan issues. Every year they have problem with money. KHL dont want to save a team every season. They want to have a strong owners, they dont have any of these problems.

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02-09-2017, 01:31 PM
  #552
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I think having a Chinese club at all was the 1st breaking point for the league regarding Asian expansion. When the Chinese are introduced to hockey, an attempt to:
- make the KHL their primary hockey interest (potentially a larger fanbase than both the NHL and the KHL at this time combined);
- speed up the process of binding fans to teams by creating a rivalry;
- secure a healthy influx of non-Russian money from Chinese owners;
- create one more financially attractive haven for the pool of players
can be made by starting another KHL franchise. If they stick, it will be also tremendous for the growth of the game overall.

Would I prefer a team in Seoul or somewhere in Japan? Probably. A team in Krasnoyarsk? Likely, when the conomy grows again. But trying to expand into China again is a low-risk, high-reward idea, so I can't see what's wwrong with it.

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02-09-2017, 02:57 PM
  #553
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Well I'm not sure how successful KHL can be when they need the investment from Chinese businessmen to run a hockey league going. I get your arguments but to me it seems like they are just trying to force a market in a country which has no idea what hockey is. Just political ties and rich Chinese men. I'm sure nowhere in the world has a sport flourished this way - please don't tell me about how Americans started loving hockey and got even better than Canadians. It's ****in' United States, they have the best of everything. China? Nobody is interested in team sports. And putting two "financially-stable" teams in KHL will not change it.

I admire their will to change and make KHL a better league but just maybe they need to give up and go back to RSL. At a time like that when Russia is slapped with sanctions and frowned upon, maybe keeping it local is a better idea.

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02-09-2017, 03:28 PM
  #554
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Originally Posted by hansomreiste View Post
I admire their will to change and make KHL a better league but just maybe they need to give up and go back to RSL. At a time like that when Russia is slapped with sanctions and frowned upon, maybe keeping it local is a better idea.
Why? I don't get this logic at all. Financially stable teams in China are bad? This is the least sensible thing I read in a long while. And I'm on HFBoards everyday so that's telling something.

Like Acallabeth said, it's LOW RISK - high reward idea. If it doesn't work it doesn't. What's the worst what can happen? And if it does work it's great.

50 years ago nobody gave a damn about hockey in California either, 5 years ago they had 3 of world's very best teams there.

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02-09-2017, 04:04 PM
  #555
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Originally Posted by SoundAndFury View Post
Like Acallabeth said, it's LOW RISK - high reward idea. If it doesn't work it doesn't. What's the worst what can happen? And if it does work it's great.
This. You need to test the waters and take risks if you want to get somewhere. I would love a team in Shanghai because if I've understood it correctly, Beijing and Shanghai hate each other. Wasn't this a factor to the really low attendance numbers in Shanghai as well? A Kunlun Red Star Beijing vs "Shanghai Shenhua" game would attract more media attention to the game of hockey than a game vs SKA, CSKA or any other team in the league.

But they should not hesitate with a second team. Let Kunlun test the market for at least 3 seasons before they make any decisions for a second team.

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02-09-2017, 07:05 PM
  #556
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Originally Posted by hansomreiste View Post
.... It's ****in' United States, they have the best of everything. China? Nobody is interested in team sports. .
That's pretty ignorant.
Those very people are tripping over themselves, beating a path to Beijing for a reason.

Hint: it ain't for the fresh, pristine air.

http://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/1...on-games-china


Last edited by mtngoat: 02-12-2017 at 08:25 PM.
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02-10-2017, 02:06 AM
  #557
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Originally Posted by hansomreiste View Post
Well I'm not sure how successful KHL can be when they need the investment from Chinese businessmen to run a hockey league going. I get your arguments but to me it seems like they are just trying to force a market in a country which has no idea what hockey is. Just political ties and rich Chinese men. I'm sure nowhere in the world has a sport flourished this way - please don't tell me about how Americans started loving hockey and got even better than Canadians. It's ****in' United States, they have the best of everything. China? Nobody is interested in team sports. And putting two "financially-stable" teams in KHL will not change it.

I admire their will to change and make KHL a better league but just maybe they need to give up and go back to RSL. At a time like that when Russia is slapped with sanctions and frowned upon, maybe keeping it local is a better idea.
I don't understand this defeatism at all.
The KHL or the hockey community don't have a century until the Chinese develop an interest in such a niche game as hockey themselves. Sometimes the hand of fate must be forced. The K is aiming at something that was never done before, you don't achieve the unlikely without making bold moves, you also don't hide your tail between your legs at the earliest obstacles.
Besides, I wholeheartedly disagree that the Chinese aren't into team sports, look at the Chinese Footbal Super League attendance explosion from just 10k 10 years ago to impressive 24k in 2016, with the most loved team peaking at 45k. If these guys aren't into team sports, only Americans and Germans are, and we should just abandon all Russian leagues too. KHL will start another team in China, and the Chinese will love it, dammit!


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02-10-2017, 06:39 AM
  #558
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Poles, French, English. What are they doing in the elite?

In the Champions League our coaches have had the chance to measure their brain with the most advanced European specialists. It plays well-known Russian fans legionaries who have made a name for himself in the KHL . In the end, this is the notorious international experience, which we used to get in the game polutovarischeskih Euro Tour. If you manage to deal with the calendar - you can enter tomorrow in the Champions League. At least in order to put in place "Frölunda HC" for two years in the absence of a holding Russian title of the strongest club teams in Europe. But that confused in this project, so it's overkill hockey teams from small countries. So, in the last draw was attended by teams from Poland, Great Britain, Belarus, Denmark, Norway, and just two of the French club, which for two scored only two points. Why strong European hockey tournament Polish "Cracovia", which is less than five goals in a game does not miss, absolutely incomprehensible. By joining the Champions League, our clubs have to be prepared that they will have to meet not only the Swedes and Finns, but also with the teams at the best level of our League. However, next season is expected to reduce the participants from 48 to 32 teams.
https://www.championat.com/hockey/ar...hempionov.html

Maybe Cracovia have like Barys Astana 90% squad Kazachstan in team, games will be better.

2 years ago, in WC IA Kazachstan wins Poland only 3:2


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02-10-2017, 01:03 PM
  #559
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I don't understand this defeatism at all.
The KHL or the hockey community don't have a century until the Chinese develop an interest in such a niche game as hockey themselves. Sometimes the hand of fate must be forced. The K is aiming at something that was never done before, you don't achieve the unlikely without making bold moves, you also don't hide your tail between your legs at the earliest obstacles.
Besides, I wholeheartedly disagree that the Chinese aren't into team sports, look at the Chinese Footbal Super League attendance explosion from just 10k 10 years ago to impressive 24k in 2016, with the most loved team peaking at 45k. If these guys aren't into team sports, only Americans and Germans are, and we should just abandon all Russian leagues too. KHL will start another team in China, and the Chinese will love it, dammit!

To be fair, we are talking about football. The first time I found out about being able to watch United's games via various streaming programs, they were mostly Chinese. They've airing the EPL there for over a decade and the PRemier League teams off-season friendlies are always sold out. Well all know they're willign to spend absurd amounts on non-Chinese players there but it hasn't shown in any major improvements on the talent level of domestic players. I'm not quite sure how basketball is doing there since Yao Ming's retirement, I do know that they haven't produced any talent even close to him since.

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02-11-2017, 11:00 AM
  #560
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Originally Posted by SoundAndFury View Post
Like Acallabeth said, it's LOW RISK - high reward idea. If it doesn't work it doesn't. What's the worst what can happen? And if it does work it's great.

50 years ago nobody gave a damn about hockey in California either, 5 years ago they had 3 of world's very best teams there.
This is what I don't understand, to be honest. How come is it a low risk idea? Having two uncompetitive teams with no attendance for a couple of years and then having to show them the door? While I can get the "high reward" part, I think having teams in China is still a high risk venture for the reasons I mentioned. Two more "dead" teams would mean less competition and less prestige. If Chinese teams worked, then yeah, this is pretty awesome; but if it didn't, I wouldn't say "What's the worst what can happen", because it would damage KHL's reputation seriously. After a couple of failed projects, it will be harder to find new "clients" for the league.

As I said earlier, I see no point in comparing China and the US. Totally two different mentalities and countries. The US is a "new" piece of land designed basically for everything with people from everywhere, while China is an actual country with culture and stuff like that. Things could have been different if thousands of people from Canada, Sweden, Russia etc. emigrated to China but it is not the case. Developing hockey in California and developing hockey in China are two different things; mainly because China is a way more "shy" country in terms of cultural influence. I'm not sure how much they can embrace hockey as a nation unless crazy Finns yelling "Torille!" invaded the country. Californian and Chinese cultures. Apples and oranges.

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Originally Posted by Exarz View Post
This. You need to test the waters and take risks if you want to get somewhere. I would love a team in Shanghai because if I've understood it correctly, Beijing and Shanghai hate each other. Wasn't this a factor to the really low attendance numbers in Shanghai as well? A Kunlun Red Star Beijing vs "Shanghai Shenhua" game would attract more media attention to the game of hockey than a game vs SKA, CSKA or any other team in the league.

But they should not hesitate with a second team. Let Kunlun test the market for at least 3 seasons before they make any decisions for a second team.
If testing the water is OK, then it can be done with other teams from Europe as well; but as far as I see, nobody is looking for adventure anymore. What makes Chinese teams less risky than European ones? When there is no interest in hockey, having a Shanghai & Beijing rivalry means nothing. First, you need to generate interest in hockey and then maybe you can fuel it with rivalry. Kunlun project is enough to test the waters, at least for a couple of years. If it works, then second or even third Chinese team would be great additions. However, until then, I am skeptical.

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Originally Posted by Acallabeth View Post
I don't understand this defeatism at all.
The KHL or the hockey community don't have a century until the Chinese develop an interest in such a niche game as hockey themselves. Sometimes the hand of fate must be forced. The K is aiming at something that was never done before, you don't achieve the unlikely without making bold moves, you also don't hide your tail between your legs at the earliest obstacles.
Besides, I wholeheartedly disagree that the Chinese aren't into team sports, look at the Chinese Footbal Super League attendance explosion from just 10k 10 years ago to impressive 24k in 2016, with the most loved team peaking at 45k. If these guys aren't into team sports, only Americans and Germans are, and we should just abandon all Russian leagues too. KHL will start another team in China, and the Chinese will love it, dammit!

It's not defeatism, just a different idea. KHL has obstacles eastwards. I'm not telling to hide tail between legs. I'm telling that maybe they must have obstacles westwards or in Russia only. This league called KHL always needs to fight for something, there is no denying that. I just don't like their current strategy. As a fan, I'm interested in high quality, competitive hockey and a stable league; not if China will become a hockey country. It's all about preference. I'm sure Swedes wouldn't like it too much if SHL suddenly decided to add a couple of teams from villages and try making them competitive & lucrative.

Again, I think the comparisons you guys make are irrational. Football and hockey are very different sports. For football, you simply need nothing. Not sure if this is a common practice in other countries as well but at kindergarten, we used to crush a cola can and use it as a ball to play football. To play football, you sometimes do not even need shoes. Sometimes, not even a ball. It's very easy, convenient and cheap to play, watch and learn. It has no ties to anywhere - from Cameroon to Finland, from Argentina to Japan, people KNOW about football and what it's about. Hockey is not like that. Nowhere near. It's an expensive and complicated sport - to love hockey, you kinda have to embrace some "hockey culture". Except for a few countries, you can't "love" hockey out of blue - you need to work for it, unlike football.

So yeah, unless some serious pushes are made to make Chinese people love hockey, I think they will never get interested in hockey. Moreover, football is way more popular and therefore their "stars" can attract more people. If Messi played in China, the whole world including China would crazy. If Ovechkin played for Kunlun... Why would that make Chinese people interested? They simply don't even know or love hockey.

I'm not against Chinese expansion. I'm against teams that have no fans. Financial stability is a very important aspect yet not alone to be a KHL team. But obviously, KHL still wants to experiment. Meh.

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02-12-2017, 07:41 AM
  #561
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Originally Posted by hansomreiste View Post
This is what I don't understand, to be honest. How come is it a low risk idea? Having two uncompetitive teams with no attendance for a couple of years and then having to show them the door? While I can get the "high reward" part, I think having teams in China is still a high risk venture for the reasons I mentioned. Two more "dead" teams would mean less competition and less prestige. If Chinese teams worked, then yeah, this is pretty awesome; but if it didn't, I wouldn't say "What's the worst what can happen", because it would damage KHL's reputation seriously. After a couple of failed projects, it will be harder to find new "clients" for the league.
I don't think that the KHL officials or fans care much about this repuation. It would be a reasonable concern if the league never had a team folding before, but as there are examples of failed teams, failing an experiment in China wouldn't matter that much, especially considering that it was never considered an easy expansion. People and executives who like or hate the K aren't going to change their minds due to Chinese teams being or not being successful. Who isn't going to join the K because it didn't work in China? Some German team? Swedish? Japanese? They haven't joined any way. I also see no reason for well-funded teams not to be competitive, Kunlun is anything but a "dead team" as early as in their 1st season. There are some risks, obviously, but the KHL can't lose anything tangible or irreplaceable, while there's everything to gain.

Quote:
If testing the water is OK, then it can be done with other teams from Europe as well; but as far as I see, nobody is looking for adventure anymore. What makes Chinese teams less risky than European ones?
They are financially stable due to being owned by billionaires, they want to join the K and don't have an obnoxious national federations putting sticks in the wheels. Much less risky.

Quote:
As a fan, I'm interested in high quality, competitive hockey and a stable league; not if China will become a hockey country. It's all about preference. I'm sure Swedes wouldn't like it too much if SHL suddenly decided to add a couple of teams from villages and try making them competitive & lucrative.
Well, how do development of the league and development of the game contradict themselves? There's no preference, if China becomes interested in hockey, it will be tremendous for both the league and hockey overall. The "village" is also the largest city in the world. A comparable would be St. Petersburg joining the Liiga.

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Again, I think the comparisons you guys make are irrational. Football and hockey are very different sports. For football, you simply need nothing. Not sure if this is a common practice in other countries as well but at kindergarten, we used to crush a cola can and use it as a ball to play football. To play football, you sometimes do not even need shoes. Sometimes, not even a ball. It's very easy, convenient and cheap to play, watch and learn. It has no ties to anywhere - from Cameroon to Finland, from Argentina to Japan, people KNOW about football and what it's about. Hockey is not like that. Nowhere near. It's an expensive and complicated sport - to love hockey, you kinda have to embrace some "hockey culture". Except for a few countries, you can't "love" hockey out of blue - you need to work for it, unlike football.
I think that you really overestimate the amount of fans who are or were hockey players on any level themselves. The overwhelming majority of Siberian hockey fans I know never held a hockey stick in their lives, and most of them can't skate either. It's expensive and complicated to learn and play hockey anywhere in the world.

Quote:
When there is no interest in hockey, having a Shanghai & Beijing rivalry means nothing. First, you need to generate interest in hockey and then maybe you can fuel it with rivalry. Kunlun project is enough to test the waters, at least for a couple of years. If it works, then second or even third Chinese team would be great additions. However, until then, I am skeptical.
Quote:
So yeah, unless some serious pushes are made to make Chinese people love hockey, I think they will never get interested in hockey. Moreover, football is way more popular and therefore their "stars" can attract more people. If Messi played in China, the whole world including China would crazy. If Ovechkin played for Kunlun... Why would that make Chinese people interested? They simply don't even know or love hockey.
Quote:
I'm not against Chinese expansion. I'm against teams that have no fans. Financial stability is a very important aspect yet not alone to be a KHL team. But obviously, KHL still wants to experiment. Meh.
But this is exactly what the KHL's doing. They are making a serious push into China instead of just creating a team and waiting until something happens of it by itslef. The timing is great (some years before the Olympics for the new sport to grow some roots). The money risks are non-existent. The fact that the Chinese don't know hockey can be an advantage as much as an advantage: they wouldn't look for stars to attract them, they will be attracted by the game itself. I don't like the teams with no fans as well, but Kunlun is a special case, their attendance have been higher than for some Russian teams recently.

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02-12-2017, 08:24 PM
  #562
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To be fair, we are talking about football. The first time I found out about being able to watch United's games via various streaming programs, they were mostly Chinese. They've airing the EPL there for over a decade and the PRemier League teams off-season friendlies are always sold out. Well all know they're willign to spend absurd amounts on non-Chinese players there but it hasn't shown in any major improvements on the talent level of domestic players. I'm not quite sure how basketball is doing there since Yao Ming's retirement, I do know that they haven't produced any talent even close to him since.
Or they could speed up their teams improvement like the europeans - by poaching talented foreigners & fast-track naturalization.
Highly unlikely tho.

Getting back to hockey, have faith in the Timchenko ,the chairman knows what's he's doing. If he wants to plonk a second team in China, all the power to him - so who are we to argue?
To people moaning about lack of fans - "if you build it, they will come" .... eventually.
Besides, low attendance is least of their problems. The ultimate goal is the 2022 Beijing Games and to ice a 1/2 decent team that doesn't get pummelled in front of home fans (& it's already looking promising with NHL likely to not release their players). Thanks to KHL, Kunlun gives an opportunity to develop local kids in the forthcoming seasons.

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02-13-2017, 08:28 AM
  #563
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Or they could speed up their teams improvement like the europeans - by poaching talented foreigners & fast-track naturalization.
Highly unlikely tho.

Getting back to hockey, have faith in the Timchenko ,the chairman knows what's he's doing. If he wants to plonk a second team in China, all the power to him - so who are we to argue?
To people moaning about lack of fans - "if you build it, they will come" .... eventually.
Besides, low attendance is least of their problems. The ultimate goal is the 2022 Beijing Games and to ice a 1/2 decent team that doesn't get pummelled in front of home fans (& it's already looking promising with NHL likely to not release their players). Thanks to KHL, Kunlun gives an opportunity to develop local kids in the forthcoming seasons.
I think FIFA might be going the same route as the IAAF with that one.

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02-24-2017, 10:24 AM
  #564
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LA Kings to oversee operations for Eisbären Berlin. Is it the end of the KHL dream? I will sum up some arguments here

- Eisbären was among clubs which KHL wanted to see in the league back in 2008 or so
- Eisbären´s junior team almost joined russian junior MHL in 2014
- Medvedev is back in KHL Board, his vision is expansion to Europe, of course Eisbären has been his idea (Gazprom connection) in early years of KHL
- German Hockey Federation was against KHL expansion to Germany in past. Last December, German Hockey Fed President Franz Reindl attended World Hockey Forum in Moscow as sole National Hockey Fed President from european country.
- LA wants to control financial aspects of Eisbären & transfer policy
- If you want to change a policy of the company, change the leadership
- One would say that NHL club, LA, wont support KHL idea in Europe

What do you think?

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02-24-2017, 11:05 AM
  #565
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LA Kings to oversee operations for Eisbären Berlin. Is it the end of the KHL dream? I will sum up some arguments here

- Eisbären was among clubs which KHL wanted to see in the league back in 2008 or so
- Eisbären´s junior team almost joined russian junior MHL in 2014
- Medvedev is back in KHL Board, his vision is expansion to Europe, of course Eisbären has been his idea (Gazprom connection) in early years of KHL
- German Hockey Federation was against KHL expansion to Germany in past. Last December, German Hockey Fed President Franz Reindl attended World Hockey Forum in Moscow as sole National Hockey Fed President from european country.
- LA wants to control financial aspects of Eisbären & transfer policy
- If you want to change a policy of the company, change the leadership
- One would say that NHL club, LA, wont support KHL idea in Europe

What do you think?
This is because of AEG who own the Berlin O2 Arena isn't it (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anschu...tainment_Group)

These fools ruined hockey in Manchester when they decided to make the previous Manchester Storm bankrupt!

I think good on the Kings/NHL. Germany is a big market and maybe they will find some good German talent to make their way to the NHL.

However I'd have LOVED to see Berlin in the KHL! I feel like it's the right thing to do but I guess we'll have to wait till AEG Bankrupt them too and Gazprom can take over

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02-24-2017, 11:31 AM
  #566
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Yeah, I knew I forgot some facts (Berlin O2 Arena)

I forgot that Rotenberg had (still has?) ideas to buy more arenas (after Hartwall) in Europe, but Ukrainian crisis stopped it. There are still sanctions, but who knows what will happen in next couple of years?

If I were KHL, I would try to get Eisbären Berlin, AIK Stokholm and Sparta Prague.

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02-25-2017, 08:09 AM
  #567
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This is because of AEG who own the Berlin O2 Arena isn't it (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anschu...tainment_Group)

These fools ruined hockey in Manchester when they decided to make the previous Manchester Storm bankrupt!
Also happens to be the same AEG that folded the Hamburg Freezers!

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02-25-2017, 11:01 AM
  #568
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Also happens to be the same AEG that folded the Hamburg Freezers!
Because it didn't make sense to have such a large stake in two DEL clubs and Eisbären is better supported, IIRC.

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03-24-2017, 05:52 PM
  #569
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The Crowns have a new plan; to play in Tallin:

http://www.aftonbladet.se/sportblade...crowns-nya-hem

Fancy Arena, by the way....

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03-24-2017, 06:09 PM
  #570
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Crowns is absolutely the worst and the most stupid a KHL team can ever get. I wish there would stay away from KHL or at least get a decent, local name which actually makes sense. What's next, Power Rangers Hockey Club? Seriously, why Crowns of all names? If to be based in Estonia, just name it Tallinn, Ilves, Tarvas or something like that. If in Sweden, give it a Swedish name which actually means something for Swedish people. I'm still mourning for Kunlun (Red Star for a Chinese team? Wut?), my poor soul won't be able to overcome another disaster.

Having said that, a decently-named club based in Tallinn would be my absolute favorites alongside with Avangard. It would be fantastic. Some nice regional rivalries with SKA, Jokerit and Riga. Sounds great.

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03-25-2017, 12:10 PM
  #571
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Crowns is absolutely the worst and the most stupid a KHL team can ever get. I wish there would stay away from KHL or at least get a decent, local name which actually makes sense. What's next, Power Rangers Hockey Club? Seriously, why Crowns of all names? If to be based in Estonia, just name it Tallinn, Ilves, Tarvas or something like that. If in Sweden, give it a Swedish name which actually means something for Swedish people. I'm still mourning for Kunlun (Red Star for a Chinese team? Wut?), my poor soul won't be able to overcome another disaster.

Having said that, a decently-named club based in Tallinn would be my absolute favorites alongside with Avangard. It would be fantastic. Some nice regional rivalries with SKA, Jokerit and Riga. Sounds great.
First I want to comment RE: your posts about China/California. California is completely unlike China as you point out socially however there is a very important similarity. It is a large non-hockey market with very much potential. To be sure the expansion to the American South/Dessert was VERY unnatural. I remember it clearly. Even in the beginning it was very unpopular and it wasn't until they poached foreign superstars that hockey was spoken about locally. This was the amazing Wayne Gretzky to Los Angeles.
Even recently when the Phoenix Coyotes were completely bankrupt and there was no interest in it the NHL STILL did not allow it to move to prime and ready Canadian markets that were ready and willing to move it immediately. The bankrupt Phoenix Coyotes were financed by the NHL for two years. Cultural differences aside, this situation is exactly like Kunlun in China. Now that there are 3 teams in California, One in Arizona... sure there is even interest for Las Vegas; Why not? But to be clear, this situation did not occur naturally. It was designed and financed by the NHL.

Now with regard to naming. If you are trying to build a national or even international brand it is important not to make an extremely localized name because that will hinder the aforementioned goal. What do you think of Malmo Redhawks, or the Vancouver Canucks? The flag of China is RED and there is nothing but Stars. I think RED Stars is a bit colloquial, but nonetheless a fine name. Crowns is great too. But this is a boring topic so whatever.

The main reason I am responding is Crowns in Tallinn. I think its not a bad idea. Generally there is no point to have an Estonian K team (maybe VHL), but since Crowns is a Swedish project that has Swedish media attention it could be a transition. Estonia is close with Sweden (geographically and in relations) and if the team is packed with top-tier Swedes, perhaps they could eventually be moved. The KHL has no experience with moving teams. This has been done successfully many times in the NHL most recently from Atlanta to Winnipeg. I think a Swedish-heavy Crowns team in Tallinn would be a good candidate for a move to Stockholm. But this is all hypothetical..... Regardless the league is developing steadily both organizationally and competitively.

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03-25-2017, 01:11 PM
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03-25-2017, 04:26 PM
  #573
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metmag View Post
First I want to comment RE: your posts about China/California. California is completely unlike China as you point out socially however there is a very important similarity. It is a large non-hockey market with very much potential. To be sure the expansion to the American South/Dessert was VERY unnatural. I remember it clearly. Even in the beginning it was very unpopular and it wasn't until they poached foreign superstars that hockey was spoken about locally. This was the amazing Wayne Gretzky to Los Angeles.
Even recently when the Phoenix Coyotes were completely bankrupt and there was no interest in it the NHL STILL did not allow it to move to prime and ready Canadian markets that were ready and willing to move it immediately. The bankrupt Phoenix Coyotes were financed by the NHL for two years. Cultural differences aside, this situation is exactly like Kunlun in China. Now that there are 3 teams in California, One in Arizona... sure there is even interest for Las Vegas; Why not? But to be clear, this situation did not occur naturally. It was designed and financed by the NHL.

Now with regard to naming. If you are trying to build a national or even international brand it is important not to make an extremely localized name because that will hinder the aforementioned goal. What do you think of Malmo Redhawks, or the Vancouver Canucks? The flag of China is RED and there is nothing but Stars. I think RED Stars is a bit colloquial, but nonetheless a fine name. Crowns is great too. But this is a boring topic so whatever.

The main reason I am responding is Crowns in Tallinn. I think its not a bad idea. Generally there is no point to have an Estonian K team (maybe VHL), but since Crowns is a Swedish project that has Swedish media attention it could be a transition. Estonia is close with Sweden (geographically and in relations) and if the team is packed with top-tier Swedes, perhaps they could eventually be moved. The KHL has no experience with moving teams. This has been done successfully many times in the NHL most recently from Atlanta to Winnipeg. I think a Swedish-heavy Crowns team in Tallinn would be a good candidate for a move to Stockholm. But this is all hypothetical..... Regardless the league is developing steadily both organizationally and competitively.
We do not want a KHL team. The Crowns project has been met by nothing but laughs and redicule. They are a joke. If they want to play in Estonia that's fine, but keep them out of Sweden, thanks.

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03-25-2017, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metmag View Post
First I want to comment RE: your posts about China/California. California is completely unlike China as you point out socially however there is a very important similarity. It is a large non-hockey market with very much potential. To be sure the expansion to the American South/Dessert was VERY unnatural. I remember it clearly. Even in the beginning it was very unpopular and it wasn't until they poached foreign superstars that hockey was spoken about locally. This was the amazing Wayne Gretzky to Los Angeles.
Even recently when the Phoenix Coyotes were completely bankrupt and there was no interest in it the NHL STILL did not allow it to move to prime and ready Canadian markets that were ready and willing to move it immediately. The bankrupt Phoenix Coyotes were financed by the NHL for two years. Cultural differences aside, this situation is exactly like Kunlun in China. Now that there are 3 teams in California, One in Arizona... sure there is even interest for Las Vegas; Why not? But to be clear, this situation did not occur naturally. It was designed and financed by the NHL.
I still view those very differently. Yes, having teams in states like California and Arizona may have sounded like idiotic ideas which in the end worked very well, but please keep in mind that they're still a part of the US. Same currency, similar culture, many ways to connect with other parts of the country etc... On the other hand, China is a whole different story. Take the example of Auston Matthews. The guy was born in California and learned about hockey in Arizona, now playing for Toronto. This may spark interest in California and Arizona, because hey, it's their homeboy. There are many ways to trigger something in those states only because they're a part of the US. In China, "please love hockey, it's a great sport" campaign would have to be run for a way longer time and possibly in a more expensive way, if Kunlun ever will be a truly Chinese hockey team. Can you imagine a Chinese player, born and grew up in Beijing, play for SKA?

And please don't get me wrong; I'm never against teams from this or that country. Right on the contrary, I'd love to see an actual Chinese team. The reason I don't like Kunlun is that it's an artificial club now and to me, it doesn't have that bloodline "deserts of America" has. Moreover, KHL is nowhere near NHL when it comes to stability: the league is basically run with rich people's money. It doesn't profit. It produces nothing that comes from the fans. While NHL has means and time to deal with underperforming or "artificial" teams to turn them into legit franchises, KHL doesn't. People say that Kunlun operation poses no risk. True. What is the worst to come? Kunlun would leave and that's it. Yes. But if we are talking about an elite league with a stable & smooth operation, then maybe it's a little bit unpleasant to have teams that come and go. I mean, Lev Prague had to leave right after they competed in Gagarin Cup finals... That doesn't look very stable and elite to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by metmag View Post
Now with regard to naming. If you are trying to build a national or even international brand it is important not to make an extremely localized name because that will hinder the aforementioned goal. What do you think of Malmo Redhawks, or the Vancouver Canucks? The flag of China is RED and there is nothing but Stars. I think RED Stars is a bit colloquial, but nonetheless a fine name. Crowns is great too. But this is a boring topic so whatever.
I'm not sure if KHL needs an international brand. With Kunlun, the targeted market is China. With Crowns or whatever it's named, it would be Sweden or Estonia. The names I suggest are not extremely localized. I just want Swedish teams to be named about something Swedish and same goes for Estonia. But that's just my preference - I love KHL because it brings Amur and Danube rivers together in the same competition. So, instead of an articifial identity, I'd love to see an "actual" Swedish, Estonian or Chinese team. That's the whole point.

Teams like Malmö Redhawks or Stavanger Oilers give me nightmares, so I prefer ignoring their "fake" names and stick with the local names. Luckily, almost everyone does so, so I don't have to put up with this. A multi-national hockey league is better when the "multi" part works. If all teams are to have English names with nothing special about their own country, what's the point of having this competition? About Canucks, I don't see the problem. It's a team from Canada and Canucks just fits them perfectly well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by metmag View Post
The main reason I am responding is Crowns in Tallinn. I think its not a bad idea. Generally there is no point to have an Estonian K team (maybe VHL), but since Crowns is a Swedish project that has Swedish media attention it could be a transition. Estonia is close with Sweden (geographically and in relations) and if the team is packed with top-tier Swedes, perhaps they could eventually be moved. The KHL has no experience with moving teams. This has been done successfully many times in the NHL most recently from Atlanta to Winnipeg. I think a Swedish-heavy Crowns team in Tallinn would be a good candidate for a move to Stockholm. But this is all hypothetical..... Regardless the league is developing steadily both organizationally and competitively.
Again, this is possible but to me, not nice. Same was done with Lev Poprad, which later was moved to Prague. And we all know what happened. There seems to be no interest in Sweden for a KHL team, especially when it's an artificial project called "Crowns". Sweden is a country which loves hockey and knows what it is - almost everyone can easily find a team to support, to which they can feel somehow attached. Why would anyone need a "Crowns" team playing against Russians? It may work, let's say, in Germany or other countries where hockey is not worshipped yet still known, but not in Sweden.

I don't want to judge whole Swedish hockey community based on what Swedish posters here write, but the ones I see here constantly be like,



I strongly support a team in Tallinn. In Estonia, for Estonian people. Keep it there. I mean, you'd think it's way easier to develop a hockey team in Baltics than in China... It seems like they have an arena and investors as well. Why not name it something proper and actually makes sense for Estonians and let it stay there?

Oh by the way, I forgot about Red Star Kunlun part. Sure, Chinese flag is full of stars and it's red, but why "Red Star" in English? It could have been Kunlun HK or Beijing Kunlun. I don't know how to say red star in Chinese, but it could have been kept Chinese, for example.

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Old
03-25-2017, 08:03 PM
  #575
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Is deadline May 1st if they are going to accept any new teams?

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