HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Central Division > Nashville Predators
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

All Purpose PK Subban Discussion Thread

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-14-2017, 09:37 AM
  #376
nomorekids
The original, baby
 
nomorekids's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Nashville, TN
Country: United States
Posts: 32,910
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by rafal majka View Post
5-on-5 stats for Nashville D, 750 minutes played, Subban is:

2nd in points/60

3rd in GF%

1st SF%

1st in CF% and FF%

Subban tilts the ice in Nashville's favour 5-on-5 - arguably more so than any other Nashville D.
The crowd that will give that any bearing here is very small.

__________________
nomorekids is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-14-2017, 09:54 AM
  #377
Pred303
Registered User
 
Pred303's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Murfreesboro, Tn.
Country: United States
Posts: 5,731
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by rafal majka View Post
5-on-5 stats for Nashville D, 750 minutes played, Subban is:

2nd in points/60

3rd in GF%

1st SF%

1st in CF% and FF%

Subban tilts the ice in Nashville's favour 5-on-5 - arguably more so than any other Nashville D.
more fun with stats.

...or one could point out that ellis and ekholm both have the same number of 1st assists even stength as subban and josi has more.
...or that in first assists per 60 (a good indicator of 'driving the play') subban is 4th among our d-men.
...or that in individual corsi Subban is actually 4th among our d-men and 3rd in individual fenwick
...or that Subban has had at least 15 of those even strength 'shots' used to measure both have actually been 'shots' from out near the red line instead of dump in's on line changes.

listen, i'm not saying subban is bad. he isn't. he's a good player. but promoting his 'superstar' status thru the selected use of 'advanced' stats doesn't tell the true story either.

(source Stats.HockeyAnalysis.com)

Pred303 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-14-2017, 10:36 AM
  #378
E82
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 614
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pred303 View Post
more fun with stats.

...or one could point out that ellis and ekholm both have the same number of 1st assists even stength as subban and josi has more.
...or that in first assists per 60 (a good indicator of 'driving the play') subban is 4th among our d-men.
...or that in individual corsi Subban is actually 4th among our d-men and 3rd in individual fenwick
...or that Subban has had at least 15 of those even strength 'shots' used to measure both have actually been 'shots' from out near the red line instead of dump in's on line changes.

listen, i'm not saying subban is bad. he isn't. he's a good player. but promoting his 'superstar' status thru the selected use of 'advanced' stats doesn't tell the true story either.

(source Stats.HockeyAnalysis.com)
He wasn't just promoted to star or super star status. He worked hard and deserved it. He's 2nd in PPG in the playoffs since 2010 behind Keith. He's won the Norris. He's been Montreal's best player other than Price since he came in. I am not saying he'll replicate what he's done in the past but he's definitely a star player in the league. Keep in mind he's never been injured before and we can definitely see that he's only slowly getting his groove back. The most important thing is Play offs success and frankly Nashville has a top 2-3 Dman in that regards. I will wait another year before passing judgement. The man wore Montreal on his sleeve who knows how mentally hard it is for him to get past that.

E82 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-14-2017, 10:36 AM
  #379
TheRealRazor
Registered User
 
TheRealRazor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,833
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomorekids View Post
I wonder how much of Ellis's "sudden" leap forward is from playing with Josi though.

I also think that in terms of sheer defending ability, Subban is better than advertised and our best overall. I would say that my assessment is that I expected more offensively, but I didn't expect him to be as good as he is defensively.

The one thing that I'm perplexed by...and I don't know if it's a matter of injury, of system, of psyche -- but I'm not someone that based my assessments of PK on what the Canadian media or fans said. I watched him play, a lot -- it wasn't just "hype" or whatever, he looked like a different player in Montreal. He was known for routinely going end to end, cutting through an entire roster to create a scoring chance. It doesn't seem likely that he just "forgot" how to do that, so what is it? We've seen flashes of his ability to get the puck up the ice, but even so, it's not what it was in the past. He's too young for it to be a skill degradation, so what?
Therrien neutered him, really. He was discouraged against taking those risks. It has made him better defensively, it's just a far less entertaining type of game to watch.

TheRealRazor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-14-2017, 11:04 AM
  #380
Armourboy
Registered User
 
Armourboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Shelbyville, TN
Posts: 3,506
vCash: 500
Honestly would like to see him in a year where he isn't injured and learning a new system and team mates. Just seemed like he was getting through it when he got hurt and lately he seems to be getting it together a bit more. We also don't really know what the coaches have been wanting out of him, so it's possible it's taken some adjustment there.

Either way I think in general his play has gotten better since the injury, which was sorely needed.

Armourboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-14-2017, 11:13 AM
  #381
KurtAngle
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 121
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pred303 View Post
After a full year of watching every shift, I will say Subban is overall a good defenseman. A defenseman every team would want on their d-pairs. Overrated? Definitely. Over hyped because of his larger than life style on and off the ice? Absolutely. Over priced? Ridiculously.

Josi is our best by far . Ellis is our next best. Subban is at best the number three d-man on this team. And honestly I'm still not sure if he any better all around or more valuable than Ekholm yet.
I think Ellis is our best...at least this year.

I'd say Josi and Subban are tied for #2. Josi has suffered without Weber, and Subban has been hurt but he's much better, now.

I'm giving it another year for Subban. I do think at times he is overhyped with the charisma, but he is a very good player.

KurtAngle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-14-2017, 11:16 AM
  #382
danyhabsfan
Registered User
 
danyhabsfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,194
vCash: 500
17 pts in his last 16 games and +6

During that period. (since february 9th)

1 Roman Josi D 16 6 13 19
2 Erik Karlsson D 16 5 13 18
3 P.K. Subban D 16 1 16 17
4 Victor Hedman D 14 6 10 16
5 Brent Burns D 14 5 8 13
6 Rasmus Ristolainen D 16 2 11 13
7 Dustin Byfuglien D 14 4 8 12
8 Zach Werenski D 16 2 10 12
9 Torey Krug D 14 1 11 12
10 Dougie Hamilton D 13 2 9 11
11 Seth Jones D 16 0 11 11
12 Ryan Ellis D 14 4 6 10
13 Alex Goligoski D 17 3 7 10
14 Jaccob Slavin D 14 3 6 9
15 Nick Leddy D 17 3 6 9



I still think he is not 100%

Only 20 shots in that period. He seems to be setting up Ellis on the PP. Usually it was the other way around. (1 goal in that period only)


Last edited by danyhabsfan: 03-14-2017 at 11:27 AM.
danyhabsfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-14-2017, 01:19 PM
  #383
triggrman
Registered User
 
triggrman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Murfreesboro, TN
Country: United States
Posts: 22,947
vCash: 557
Quote:
Originally Posted by KurtAngle View Post
I think Ellis is our best...at least this year.

I'd say Josi and Subban are tied for #2. Josi has suffered without Weber, and Subban has been hurt but he's much better, now.

I'm giving it another year for Subban. I do think at times he is overhyped with the charisma, but he is a very good player.
Where exactly has Josi suffered? Defensively, he's been better, and the advanced stats I think actually agree with the eye test on this. Offensively, he's been just as effective, and has increased Ellis' offensive play the same way he did Weber's.

I think Weber is missing Josi way more than Josi is missing Weber.

I also disagree with the notion that Josi isn't as good as Subban defensively. It's simply not true. Josi's gap control, positioning and his ability to get the puck out quick is better than Subban's. Subban might be a little better along the boards, but that's about it. He chases the puck way to much, IMHO.

triggrman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-14-2017, 01:29 PM
  #384
Drake744
Swedish House Mafia
 
Drake744's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Nashville
Posts: 8,352
vCash: 344
Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I don't care if PK is our "best" defenseman. Or second or third. I just want him to be a solid contributor. Weber is past his prime and we were able to flip him for another above-average defenseman who isn't. In my mind we have a bigtime group of Josi, Ellis, Subban, and in the mean time, Ekholm. And in any order that's pretty damn impressive. I understand PK comes with off the ice hype (sick of that word) but really, who cares? He's come here and been good, while quite possibly being less than 100%. I prefer to look at our top 4 in general and appreciate that PK is part of it, rather than expect him to rank a certain spot on it.

Drake744 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-14-2017, 01:43 PM
  #385
E82
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 614
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake744 View Post
Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I don't care if PK is our "best" defenseman. Or second or third. I just want him to be a solid contributor. Weber is past his prime and we were able to flip him for another above-average defenseman who isn't. In my mind we have a bigtime group of Josi, Ellis, Subban, and in the mean time, Ekholm. And in any order that's pretty damn impressive. I understand PK comes with off the ice hype (sick of that word) but really, who cares? He's come here and been good, while quite possibly being less than 100%. I prefer to look at our top 4 in general and appreciate that PK is part of it, rather than expect him to rank a certain spot on it.
Amen brother. This top 4 has so much promise. It's just a matter of chemistry which can be built.

E82 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-14-2017, 01:45 PM
  #386
SeventyOneTN
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 187
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake744 View Post
Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I don't care if PK is our "best" defenseman. Or second or third. I just want him to be a solid contributor. Weber is past his prime and we were able to flip him for another above-average defenseman who isn't. In my mind we have a bigtime group of Josi, Ellis, Subban, and in the mean time, Ekholm. And in any order that's pretty damn impressive. I understand PK comes with off the ice hype (sick of that word) but really, who cares? He's come here and been good, while quite possibly being less than 100%. I prefer to look at our top 4 in general and appreciate that PK is part of it, rather than expect him to rank a certain spot on it.
Well said, it isn't Subban's fault who he got traded for, or what anyone's expectations are. He cares about this team and does his job.

SeventyOneTN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-14-2017, 01:50 PM
  #387
triggrman
Registered User
 
triggrman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Murfreesboro, TN
Country: United States
Posts: 22,947
vCash: 557
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake744 View Post
Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I don't care if PK is our "best" defenseman. Or second or third. I just want him to be a solid contributor. Weber is past his prime and we were able to flip him for another above-average defenseman who isn't. In my mind we have a bigtime group of Josi, Ellis, Subban, and in the mean time, Ekholm. And in any order that's pretty damn impressive. I understand PK comes with off the ice hype (sick of that word) but really, who cares? He's come here and been good, while quite possibly being less than 100%. I prefer to look at our top 4 in general and appreciate that PK is part of it, rather than expect him to rank a certain spot on it.
Oh, I don't care either.

I think we're blessed to have the top 4 we have. Ekholm, while not elite is still a really good number 3 on most teams, a 2 on some and he's a 4 here. He does have some small flaws but guys his size that are as fast and physical as him are hard to find.

I was never a big Ellis guy until this season and he has just seemed to flip a switch. His ability to read the play is incredible.

triggrman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-14-2017, 02:18 PM
  #388
Persona5
Registered User
 
Persona5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Nashville
Country: United States
Posts: 1,494
vCash: 500
After seeing Subban play this season and especially after the return from the injury. I am very happy with this trade. We will always love Weber but he is on the decline and we saw it first hand. It wasn't a sharp decline but it was there. Subban has grown on me over time. His Defense has been better than I thought it would be and while his offense hasn't been that end to end style, I'm perfectly happy with the way he has been playing. He generates more offense with his passes than any of our defensemen do. Josi generates by skating the puck up ice while Subban does it with his outlet passes. Just the game last night alone he stole 3 passes clean in the neutral zone and turned them back up ice to our forwards that created one of our goals and 2 other very good chances. Subban isn't going to score 20+ goals a year. That isn't his game. He will however rack up tons of assists with the way he gets it up ice to our forwards clean. On the Forsberg goal just last night against the Jets. He made a play in the D-zone that leveled a guy in front of the net and turned the puck up ice to Arvidson. Arvy then made a great play to get it up ice to Joey and then the pass over the Forsberg for the goal. Subban doesn't get anything on the stat sheet other than a +1 but he started that play and allowed our forwards to go to work. The gap between Weber and Subban is already there but in 2-3 years everyone in hockey will be looking at this trade thinking how did Poile pull that one off.

Persona5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-14-2017, 02:48 PM
  #389
LarryO
Registered User
 
LarryO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 665
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomorekids View Post
I wonder how much of Ellis's "sudden" leap forward is from playing with Josi though.

I also think that in terms of sheer defending ability, Subban is better than advertised and our best overall. I would say that my assessment is that I expected more offensively, but I didn't expect him to be as good as he is defensively.

The one thing that I'm perplexed by...and I don't know if it's a matter of injury, of system, of psyche -- but I'm not someone that based my assessments of PK on what the Canadian media or fans said. I watched him play, a lot -- it wasn't just "hype" or whatever, he looked like a different player in Montreal. He was known for routinely going end to end, cutting through an entire roster to create a scoring chance. It doesn't seem likely that he just "forgot" how to do that, so what is it? We've seen flashes of his ability to get the puck up the ice, but even so, it's not what it was in the past. He's too young for it to be a skill degradation, so what?
I think it's a combination of not getting back up to speed after his injury, and the fact that he doesn't need to do as much with the Preds as he had to with last years Therrien-neutered Habs offense.

LarryO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-14-2017, 04:14 PM
  #390
No Team Needed
Registered User
 
No Team Needed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: essex
Posts: 5,968
vCash: 500
Subban is the best point per game producing defenceman in the playoffs. Few players shine like he does in the spring.

No Team Needed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-14-2017, 05:25 PM
  #391
nomorekids
The original, baby
 
nomorekids's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Nashville, TN
Country: United States
Posts: 32,910
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
Where exactly has Josi suffered? Defensively, he's been better, and the advanced stats I think actually agree with the eye test on this. Offensively, he's been just as effective, and has increased Ellis' offensive play the same way he did Weber's.

I think Weber is missing Josi way more than Josi is missing Weber.

I also disagree with the notion that Josi isn't as good as Subban defensively. It's simply not true. Josi's gap control, positioning and his ability to get the puck out quick is better than Subban's. Subban might be a little better along the boards, but that's about it. He chases the puck way to much, IMHO.
The stats basically say our top 4 d-men are all really good. They all have slight advantages over each other in individual metrics. Subban leads the team in shots per 60. Ellis leads the team in goals per 60. Ekholm leads in xGF. They're all close in all these categories. As an advanced stats guy, my general conclusion -- if I never watched the games at all, would be that Subban is very slightly better than Josi, and Ellis and Ekholm are trailing just behind.

Being that I also WATCH the games, I would make slight adjustments, but overall it's pretty close. The AS say Josi is the best at driving offense, followed by Subban, Ellis, and Ekholm. They conversely say that Subban is the best defensive d-man, followed by Josi, Ellis, and Ekholm. An interesting note -- Josi's average shift is longer, which typically is interpreted as "stuck in defensive zone longer."

This is all splitting hairs at this point. There's a negligible difference between Subban and Josi -- both in terms of the stats and in my interpretation of watching them. Then I think there's Ellis...and then there's Ekholm. It's the best top 4 in the league, without a doubt IMO. The fact we spend so much time bickering about who is better than who just speaks to our embarassment of riches.

nomorekids is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-14-2017, 07:08 PM
  #392
Pred303
Registered User
 
Pred303's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Murfreesboro, Tn.
Country: United States
Posts: 5,731
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomorekids View Post
The AS say Josi is the best at driving offense, followed by Subban, Ellis, and Ekholm. They conversely say that Subban is the best defensive d-man, followed by Josi, Ellis, and Ekholm. .
I too watch every game/every shift. without a doubt josi is a better d-man at driving the offense.

subban might well be the best 'cover' man once he's locked up with his man. he's probably our most physical d-man as well. but there is more to measuring a 'defensive d-man' than this too. subban makes far more blown coverage mistakes than josi/ellis (take the 5th disallowed goal from WPG as an example). subban makes pinch/hit decisions that gets him caught up ice far more often than josi or ellis which is one of the reasons we have surrendered so many 2 on 1's with him and ekholm on ice (admittedly ekholm does this too often as well). subban leads our d-men in minor penalties taken (16), which is more than josi (9) and ellis (6) combined as well. if you want other 'stats', he also has the second most 'official' giveaways, the most goals allowed while on ice, the worst +/-, the second worse giveaway/takeaway ratio (behind ekholm), the third most hits and the 5th most blocked shots of any of our defensemen.

again, I think he's probably the best second pair defensemen in the league, which is good, since he's the highest paid one as well.

maybe next year he has a super year and is the true star we want him to be. but he's been our 3rd best dman all around so far thru these first 69 games in my eyes. maybe he turns it all up a notch now, we could use it.

Pred303 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-15-2017, 03:24 PM
  #393
RickP
Rookie User
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 1
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pred303 View Post
I too watch every game/every shift. without a doubt josi is a better d-man at driving the offense.

subban might well be the best 'cover' man once he's locked up with his man. he's probably our most physical d-man as well. but there is more to measuring a 'defensive d-man' than this too. subban makes far more blown coverage mistakes than josi/ellis (take the 5th disallowed goal from WPG as an example). subban makes pinch/hit decisions that gets him caught up ice far more often than josi or ellis which is one of the reasons we have surrendered so many 2 on 1's with him and ekholm on ice (admittedly ekholm does this too often as well). subban leads our d-men in minor penalties taken (16), which is more than josi (9) and ellis (6) combined as well. if you want other 'stats', he also has the second most 'official' giveaways, the most goals allowed while on ice, the worst +/-, the second worse giveaway/takeaway ratio (behind ekholm), the third most hits and the 5th most blocked shots of any of our defensemen.

again, I think he's probably the best second pair defensemen in the league, which is good, since he's the highest paid one as well.

maybe next year he has a super year and is the true star we want him to be. but he's been our 3rd best dman all around so far thru these first 69 games in my eyes. maybe he turns it all up a notch now, we could use it.
I've watched almost every game Subban has played with the Habs, and I'm glad to see he seems to be playing better for Nashville right now than he was earlier in the season.

But judging from the games I've watched this year, and the game in Montreal, to me it looks like he's not 100%. He looks slower to me, and his slap shot looks "akward" to me, which wasn't the case in the past.

And I've seen games from the beginning of the year too, not just since he came back from his injury, and every single game I've watched this year, PK didn't seem 100%.

I'm pretty sure he's been bothered by this injury for a while now. He missed meaningless games at the end of last year for the Habs, even though he seemed ready to come back, following his neck injury. He could have played for Team Canada in the World Championship in May but he said "his health didn't allow him to".

He also missed some time at training camp this year. My guess is he can tolerate the discomfort caused by his injury, but it's probably bothering him, both physically and mentally, and it probably hurt his off-ice training too.

Anyways, not to defend him, because he does have flaws, and some of those flaws have nothing to do with the injury, but Subban was absolutely dominant around 2013-2015 with the Habs. Just watch some of his highlights from those years, and you'll see he doesn't look the same.

Now it looks like he's keeping his game more simple than usual, which seems to pay off overall, it's probably a good lesson for him. But hopefully he can fully heal, and be as effective as he was in the past.

RickP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-15-2017, 04:27 PM
  #394
King Weber
Registered User
 
King Weber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 1,595
vCash: 50
Might be just me, but has anyone else noticed how Ekholm seems to be the one doing the shooting and Subban doing the passing, when it should probably be the other way around?

King Weber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-16-2017, 09:57 AM
  #395
ScottFC
Registered User
 
ScottFC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,262
vCash: 500
Throughout Subban's careers he's always had slow starts and got hotter as the season progressed. I think you'll all be in for a treat going forward and into the playoffs.


Last edited by ScottFC: 03-16-2017 at 10:02 AM.
ScottFC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-22-2017, 03:17 PM
  #396
Drake744
Swedish House Mafia
 
Drake744's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Nashville
Posts: 8,352
vCash: 344
Just bumping this at the last minute for us in Nashville in case anyone cares.

PK will be live at The Diner downtown (3rd and Demonbreun) with 3HL from 5:30-6 tonight, and I have to think he'll hang around at least briefly before and/or after. Free Prince's Hot Chicken and 2 for 1 drinks.

Then a block away at 7:00 Smith has Johansen as his guest on his show at Tin Roof.

Drake744 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:00 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2017 All Rights Reserved.