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Jacques Plante In Toronto

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Old
03-13-2017, 09:13 PM
  #26
Canadiens1958
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Strength of Schedule

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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
I think Plante also had a very favourable schedule in terms of opponents and home/road games. Doctor No's goalie site lists him at an SOS (strength of schedule) of -0.43 for that season. I'm not sure what that means but it's a very low number compared to the SOS numbers for other goaltenders.
Strength of schedule should not be conflated with frequency of usage. Specifically 3rd game in 4 nights against a weak team is much tougher than playing a strong team after six days rest as an example.

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03-14-2017, 04:03 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
I think Plante also had a very favourable schedule in terms of opponents and home/road games. Doctor No's goalie site lists him at an SOS (strength of schedule) of -0.43 for that season. I'm not sure what that means but it's a very low number compared to the SOS numbers for other goaltenders.
Thanks!

Basically, it means that Plante's average opponent would be favored by -0.43 goals in a game against an average team on neutral ice.

And yes, it's quite low (and Gamble +0.16 and Parent +0.37 were significantly higher).

Plante also faced teams with lower shooting percentages (6.0% below average, where Gamble and Parent were +3.1% and +5.3%, respectively).

The SoS number does include home ice advantage (but not the other things that C1958) mentions, and Plante was definitely sheltered in terms of that. 26 of his 40 appearances were in the friendly confines of Maple Leaf Gardens. Gamble played 6 of 23 at home, with Parent at 8 of 18.

Of course, Parent also played Chicago three times, Boston twice, Montreal once, and the Rangers twice, meaning that 7 of his 18 appearances were against the top 25% of teams in the league (the Rangers count half, since 25% of 14 is 3.5). You'd expect 4.5 of 18 appearances to be against the top quartile.

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Old
03-14-2017, 05:54 PM
  #28
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^^^ Bruce Gamble was terrific. Lots of fond memories of him.... Poor guy though, fans
filling Maple Leaf Gardens came to see Plante play, notorious handmade signs all over the building...

Dont Gamble
Play Plante


... no wonder the guy eventually had a heart attack. Evil.

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03-15-2017, 11:52 AM
  #29
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Agreed on Gamble - he always seemed like the "everyman" goaltender who worked his ass off; conversely, Plante was the star who wanted things his way.

As for Plante's save percentage in 1970-71, my belief is that it was set under favorable conditions (outlined above), although that's not particularly rare - nearly all all-time records are set under favorable conditions.

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03-15-2017, 12:52 PM
  #30
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Winning Conditions

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Originally Posted by Doctor No View Post
Agreed on Gamble - he always seemed like the "everyman" goaltender who worked his ass off; conversely, Plante was the star who wanted things his way.

As for Plante's save percentage in 1970-71, my belief is that it was set under favorable conditions (outlined above), although that's not particularly rare - nearly all all-time records are set under favorable conditions.
Not sure how you would differentiate between favourable conditions - a statistical abstraction and winning conditions, a coaching objective, scheduling a goalie rotation in a fashion that gives his team improved conditions for winning. Bowman did this with his goalie rotation in St. Louis. John McLellan did likewise in Toronto with Plante, Gamble and Parent. The SV% generated by Plante is interesting historically but incidental to the desire for team success.

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03-15-2017, 01:08 PM
  #31
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Okay.

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03-15-2017, 06:43 PM
  #32
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Okay in the "he's free to find important things that he wants to find important, and I'll go ahead and find important the things that I want to find important" sense.

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03-16-2017, 11:39 AM
  #33
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Plante was a great goalie, among the best ever, seemed to be good everywhere he went but it was with Montreal where he was at his best.

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Old
03-16-2017, 01:16 PM
  #34
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One question I'd like to see addressed - how much help did the Canadiens give Plante, as opposed to the amount of help he got from the Maple Leafs?
From what I know, it was a huge difference.

Plante had always complained about allergies/asthma of all kind, having all sorts of demands to protect himself from their causes. Heck, he had a mask custom made for him that he sometimes wore on game-day(not that one).

Montreal always treated him like a fancy-pants, a malade imaginaire, not caring much about his demands.

As for Toronto, promises of accommodations to help his allergies problems were made to encourage him not to retire.

It worked pretty well as they heeded almost his every needs.

Also, I think I remember something about him deciding which goaltender played when.

I'll look into the exact sum, but I know that thousands of $$$ were spent to that effect in addition to his salary.


Last edited by The Hockey Socrates: 03-16-2017 at 01:48 PM.
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03-16-2017, 01:38 PM
  #35
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montreal:first contract" 9100$/season

St-Louis: 26 000$/season -3 seasons

Toronto: 75 000$ total (first year in Toronto was 3rd year of St-Louis contract)

That's what I've found.

Enjoy.


Last edited by The Hockey Socrates: 03-16-2017 at 08:12 PM.
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03-17-2017, 08:59 AM
  #36
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I just found more details regarding Plante's salary by happenstance.

1960-1961: 16 000$

1961-1962: 15 000$ + 3000$ bonus if he wins the Vezina.

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03-17-2017, 10:25 AM
  #37
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Salary Cut

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Originally Posted by The Hockey Socrates View Post
I just found more details regarding Plante's salary by happenstance.

1960-1961: 16 000$

1961-1962: 15 000$ + 3000$ bonus if he wins the Vezina.
Salary was cut but bonified because Plante was coming off a knee injury that caused him to miss 30 games during the 1960-61 season.

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03-17-2017, 10:33 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Salary was cut but bonified because Plante was coming off a knee injury that caused him to miss 30 games during the 1960-61 season.
Funny anecdote, Selke actually tried to lowball Plante saying that his GAA went gradually from 1.86 to 2.80 in the last 6 seasons, Plante replied: "The same thing is happening to every single Goaltenders in the league, if it was only me, I'd be worried."

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Old
03-17-2017, 08:29 PM
  #39
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Important

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Originally Posted by Doctor No View Post
Okay in the "he's free to find important things that he wants to find important, and I'll go ahead and find important the things that I want to find important" sense.
Not a competition. Interesting to know "Why" things are important before looking at the "What" elements.

1956-57 and 1957-58 Scotty Bowman coached the Hull- Ottawa Junior Canadiens. Interesting aspect was that the team was not a normal Junior team. 1956-57 the team played in an eastern Ontario Junior League to qualify for the Memorial Cup and the QHL a senior pro league to better develop future NHL players. 1957-58 the team played in the same junior league and in the =HSSR league - Whitby Dunlops, etc:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...006031957.html

Skaters were junior aged but the team had a young pro goalie that was used against Senior or pro opposition. So Bowman learned about the two goalie system firsthand long before it became the norm in organized hockey. 1957-58 junior Canadiens went to the Memorial Cup winning. Goaltending was weak s, as allowed by the rules of the day they were allowed to add up to two players from eliminated junior teams. Bowman added a goalie - Bruce Gamble. So Bowman was using a three goalie system in the second part of the fifties.

Fast forward to the last two seasons of the O6 NHL. Bowman coaching the Junior Canadiens, now based in Montreal recruits Jacques Plante retired to face the touring Soviets. Needed a goalie since the junior goalie was weak. Plante and the Jr Canadiens upset the Soviets 2 - 1. Reason that the jr Canadiens had weak goaltending was that the Bruins had signed Bernie Parent out of Montreal - Rosemount Bombardiers and he was playing in Niagara Falls, sharing the load with Doug Favell. In Montreal Parent would have been mentored by Plante.

1966-67 season the Leafs - Bower, Sawchuk, Gamble and the Canadiens - Hodge, Worsley, Vachon were using the three goalie system. Bowman in 1967-68 brought it to St.Louis, perfecting it with the addition of plante in 1968. Financial restrictions caused Plante to be moved to Toronto, where he played with Gamble and Parent with the results that we know(your efforts enhancing the understanding) based on goalie choices developed over roughly 15 seasons.

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Old
03-18-2017, 01:55 AM
  #40
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I saw Plante when I was a little kid. It was WHA and he was gray haired under his signature mask. What I remember is the authority he had on the ice. The Blazers couldn't dump it in because he could skate anywhere in the zone, retrieve the puck and maneuver with it. You could hear the clicking sound his stick made as he handled the puck. Then he would rocket it down ice to a waiting forward. Amazing!

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