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2009- If 8 Seed Anaheim got by Detroit, do they beat the Blackhawks/Penguins?

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Old
03-14-2017, 10:16 PM
  #51
Voight
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I don't see why not.

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03-17-2017, 09:30 PM
  #52
Big Phil
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Originally Posted by danincanada View Post
In hindsight obviously the coaching change was a great move but to blame them getting only 99 points all on Therrien doesn't look that great when they only got 101 points the next season with Bylsma behind the bench the whole time. Teams get hot at the right time and teams gets breaks along the way... we've all seen it in the playoffs.

The point is that it's shouldn't be inconceivable that the 91 point Ducks team were good enough to win it all but the 99 point Penguins team were. That Ducks team was not far removed from winning it all and Getzlaf, Perry, and Hiller were playing great and they had two elite defenders on D. The West was also the tougher conference overall that year.

Malkin and Crosby lit it up the first 3 rounds but who did they have to face? Name me one good to great shutdown defender on Philly, the Caps, or the Canes then. Look at the goalies they went up against, too. Facing Pronger, Neidermayer, (and even Beauchemin) with Hiller in net for a series was something completely different. Not saying anyone should "award" the cup to the Ducks but you should realize it wasn't as simple as them being a weak 8th seed.
The thing is, before Bylsma came in at the end of 2009 they were not on pace for that 99 points. They were on pace for about 84. They were dangerously close to not making the playoffs before that coaching change came. The following year they get 101 and they wouldn't have done that with a full season with Therrien in 2009. I don't know why he coached differently because in 2008 they had over 100 also. So I think it is fair to say the Pens were better than their regular season suggested.

By the way, I am with you on Pronger. He was always someone you could count on to play the shutdown role effectively and individually he could dominate, even by 2009, but what is with this love for Niedermayer? From a defensive standpoint I am sorry I was never impressed with him his entire career. He was always the fastest guy on the ice but he was so accident prone out there. Pronger is probably going to be glued to either one of Crosby or Malkin but it doesn't matter who Niedermayer matches up with because he couldn't contain them. He wasn't a lights out defensive shell who shut down guys. I never thought he was at least. He was not good at all in the 2010 Olympics, he was getting a lot of heat as the captain as the tournament went on and if not for a quick shoulder from Roberto Luongo we'd be talking about Nieds as one of the biggest goats of all-time because he made a horrible pass right to Ryan Kesler in overtime in the Gold medal game just seconds before Crosby took the puck up the ice and scored. Look it up.

So I'm sorry, I just don't see it. The bread and butter of Anaheim was that they always had one of these guys on the ice in all situations and that bodes well until they have to face two elite centermen. It didn't help them beat Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Detroit.

I honestly think people have the 2009 team mixed up with the 2015 team as a team that "would" have won the Cup if they got past their opponents. Anaheim beats Tampa in 2015 if they had beaten Chicago and figured out a way to score a goal in one of those multiple overtime losses that would have given them a stranglehold on the series. But I don't see it with 2009.

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03-18-2017, 01:54 AM
  #53
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I think they would of beaten the Blackhawks. Against the Penguins I think Ducks could of won but it would of been harder then a Blackhawks series.

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03-18-2017, 10:01 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
The thing is, before Bylsma came in at the end of 2009 they were not on pace for that 99 points. They were on pace for about 84. They were dangerously close to not making the playoffs before that coaching change came. The following year they get 101 and they wouldn't have done that with a full season with Therrien in 2009. I don't know why he coached differently because in 2008 they had over 100 also. So I think it is fair to say the Pens were better than their regular season suggested.
Uh, that's exactly what I was saying about that Ducks team. Two years removed from a Cup with loads of experience and more mature Getzlaf/Perry combo. If you watched that series against Detroit you would have noticed they were a far tougher out than their 91 points suggested.

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By the way, I am with you on Pronger. He was always someone you could count on to play the shutdown role effectively and individually he could dominate, even by 2009, but what is with this love for Niedermayer? From a defensive standpoint I am sorry I was never impressed with him his entire career. He was always the fastest guy on the ice but he was so accident prone out there. Pronger is probably going to be glued to either one of Crosby or Malkin but it doesn't matter who Niedermayer matches up with because he couldn't contain them. He wasn't a lights out defensive shell who shut down guys. I never thought he was at least. He was not good at all in the 2010 Olympics, he was getting a lot of heat as the captain as the tournament went on and if not for a quick shoulder from Roberto Luongo we'd be talking about Nieds as one of the biggest goats of all-time because he made a horrible pass right to Ryan Kesler in overtime in the Gold medal game just seconds before Crosby took the puck up the ice and scored. Look it up.
Niedermayer in '09, even if not at his peak, was still better than any defensemen the Pens faced in the East. He was not an easy defensemen to play against either. Great skater and extremely experienced, hence captaining Team Canada. One giveaway to Kesler doesn't change that - that was also the following year before he retired.

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So I'm sorry, I just don't see it. The bread and butter of Anaheim was that they always had one of these guys on the ice in all situations and that bodes well until they have to face two elite centermen. It didn't help them beat Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Detroit.
Detroit in '09 was really stacked and relatively healthy against the Ducks. You do realize that series was decided by a controversial single goal in game 7, right? It could have went either way so the Pronger/Niedermayer duo almost did beat them. That's why this is an interesting "what if" thread.

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I honestly think people have the 2009 team mixed up with the 2015 team as a team that "would" have won the Cup if they got past their opponents. Anaheim beats Tampa in 2015 if they had beaten Chicago and figured out a way to score a goal in one of those multiple overtime losses that would have given them a stranglehold on the series. But I don't see it with 2009.
Maybe you were only watching the Eastern Conference in the '09 playoffs?

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03-18-2017, 03:21 PM
  #55
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Uh, that's exactly what I was saying about that Ducks team. Two years removed from a Cup with loads of experience and more mature Getzlaf/Perry combo. If you watched that series against Detroit you would have noticed they were a far tougher out than their 91 points suggested.

Niedermayer in '09, even if not at his peak, was still better than any defensemen the Pens faced in the East. He was not an easy defensemen to play against either. Great skater and extremely experienced, hence captaining Team Canada. One giveaway to Kesler doesn't change that - that was also the following year before he retired.

Detroit in '09 was really stacked and relatively healthy against the Ducks. You do realize that series was decided by a controversial single goal in game 7, right? It could have went either way so the Pronger/Niedermayer duo almost did beat them. That's why this is an interesting "what if" thread.

Maybe you were only watching the Eastern Conference in the '09 playoffs?
Look, I am not saying the 2009 Ducks weren't a good team. They were, and yes they were better than their 91 points suggested. But the Getzlaf/Perry combo was several steps behind the Crosby/Malkin duo. Throw in the fact that the Pens got more from their supporting cast that is often remembered. When your top players have 36 and 31 points than everyone else is going to look mediocre in comparison. However, Guerin had a surprisingly good postseason. Fleury did, Letang did, Gonchar did, Gill and Scuderi were a nice shutdown combo, Staal did what he did and the rest of the cast chipped in as well. Detroit was such a well oiled machine back then and I don't think Anaheim played near as close to an error-free game as the Red Wings. For what its worth, the Ducks and Pens played each other once in 2009 and the Pens won 3-1. I know that means little, but as I said before I am not sold on Niedermayer at this point in his career.

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03-20-2017, 01:51 PM
  #56
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Look, I am not saying the 2009 Ducks weren't a good team. They were, and yes they were better than their 91 points suggested. But the Getzlaf/Perry combo was several steps behind the Crosby/Malkin duo. Throw in the fact that the Pens got more from their supporting cast that is often remembered. When your top players have 36 and 31 points than everyone else is going to look mediocre in comparison. However, Guerin had a surprisingly good postseason. Fleury did, Letang did, Gonchar did, Gill and Scuderi were a nice shutdown combo, Staal did what he did and the rest of the cast chipped in as well. Detroit was such a well oiled machine back then and I don't think Anaheim played near as close to an error-free game as the Red Wings. For what its worth, the Ducks and Pens played each other once in 2009 and the Pens won 3-1. I know that means little, but as I said before I am not sold on Niedermayer at this point in his career.
Honestly, the Zetterberg/Lidstrom combo had a tougher match up with Getzlaf's line than Crosby's that playoff. Getzlaf and Perry each had 10 points in 7 games while Crosby only had 3 against Detroit. That was Getzlaf at his peak and he was a force so even if he wasn't as good as Crosby or Malkin overall he wasn't far behind at that time and he was a seasoned playoff performer already.

Anaheim's defense was much stronger than the Pens and the Ducks had plenty of depth solid depth, too. Bringing up one regular season game where the Pens beat the Ducks is not even worth mentioning because the playoffs is a whole different game.

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03-22-2017, 04:25 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by danincanada View Post
Honestly, the Zetterberg/Lidstrom combo had a tougher match up with Getzlaf's line than Crosby's that playoff. Getzlaf and Perry each had 10 points in 7 games while Crosby only had 3 against Detroit. That was Getzlaf at his peak and he was a force so even if he wasn't as good as Crosby or Malkin overall he wasn't far behind at that time and he was a seasoned playoff performer already.

Anaheim's defense was much stronger than the Pens and the Ducks had plenty of depth solid depth, too. Bringing up one regular season game where the Pens beat the Ducks is not even worth mentioning because the playoffs is a whole different game.
You could probably find a way to neutralize Crosby. Detroit did it, but I think they were a better fit to do a thing like that than Anaheim. In all honesty, I think it would have to be Pronger doing the checking against Crosby, I can't see Niedermayer shutting him down. That still leaves Malkin wide open. The Getzlaf and Perry combo are one line, who does Anaheim have that comes near to Malkin outside of those two? Because to be honest Perry was just starting to come into his own at that time. I'll give you Getzlaf as someone who was fairly established by then but the two star players for Anaheim are not at Pittsburgh's level and I am not sold on their supporting cast outdoing Pittsburgh's either, or their goaltending.

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Yesterday, 01:09 PM
  #58
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You could probably find a way to neutralize Crosby. Detroit did it, but I think they were a better fit to do a thing like that than Anaheim. In all honesty, I think it would have to be Pronger doing the checking against Crosby, I can't see Niedermayer shutting him down. That still leaves Malkin wide open. The Getzlaf and Perry combo are one line, who does Anaheim have that comes near to Malkin outside of those two? Because to be honest Perry was just starting to come into his own at that time. I'll give you Getzlaf as someone who was fairly established by then but the two star players for Anaheim are not at Pittsburgh's level and I am not sold on their supporting cast outdoing Pittsburgh's either, or their goaltending.
How does it leave Malkin "wide open" when Niedermayer is available to focus on him if Pronger is going against Crosby? Even if you feel that Pronger was their top shutdown guy, once again, Niedermayer was a better defenseman than anything the Pens faced in the East that playoff and I'm assuming you have him as the Ducks # 2 option.

In the Wings/Ducks series it was Getzlaf against Zetterberg and Datsyuk against Marchant. The Ducks focused on shutting down Datsyuk like the Wings did with Crosby and both worked. I envision the same would have happened if the Ducks made it to the finals. Marchant could skate with anyone and could be a real pain to play against like Draper.

Hiller was brilliant in net for them in the first two rounds (.943 sv % through 13 games) so goaltending was not an issue. They had loads of depth on defense (Beauchemin, Whitney, Wisniewski) and good forward depth with Selanne, Ryan, Marchant, Carter, Miller, etc. so it wouldn't be an issue either. It's a coin flip at best in my opinion.

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