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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

Phoenix CXXV: Relocating One Seat at a Time

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Old
03-20-2017, 03:39 PM
  #226
Killion
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Originally Posted by TheLegend View Post
RE: Drive times to Glendale from east valley.

While Scottsdale isn't that bad of a drive.... you have a bottleneck on the Loop 101 between the SR 51 and I-17.

However coming from Mesa, Gilbert and parts in the southeast all roads lead through the downtown core which is a parking lot from roughly 4pm until almost 7pm. The Loop 202 South Mountain freeway will go around me all that but it's at least two more years until completion (barring further legal challenges.)

I went to a recent weeknight game which had a good crowd and the Coyotes we're playing well. But a third of the way through the last period I noticed the crowd had thinned out substantially despite the Yotes leading. So it isn't just the drive to the arena that weighs on people's minds.
Right, and you get that (people leaving early even in close game situations sometimes) even in urban settings with public transit practically right on the doorstep of an arena. Considerable #'s of people just want to avoid the crush more so than seeing who wins, particularly with non-critical, early to late season games. Depends of course on whether or not your Team is in the Playoff hunt, already made it or if mathematically eliminated as the Coyotes appear to be then ya, even if their winning, up, fine. Im outta here. Beat the traffic.... This problem, distance to the building is not unique to Metro Phoenix. Its a problem thats been created by the NHL over several decades having increased the number of (meaningless) games in the Regular Season to 84 with far too many mid-week work/school dates, while moving up the start times to 7 or 7:30pm puck drops. Fine on a Friday or Saturday. Sunday Matinee' games at like 2pm. And unfortunately due to a lack of performance, uncertainty & circus like atmosphere swirling around the club for over a decade now has magnified GRA's location as being not just the minor problem that it is to being the major obstacle faced by the NHL. Its just a cheap alibi is what that is TL. An irrational excuse. Everyone faces these problems and I mean from top-bottom. You can take the Subway to a Leafs or Habs game sure, to TD Center in Boston, MSG in NYC or Barclays and lots, most do. But guess what? By the time they get to a "park n' ride" often at the far end of the line, squeeze onto the train, looking at 45-60 minutes ,minimum. Longer if they drive in from outer suburbia or rural or wherever. Urban arena, sure, you'll get more corporate STH's, easier sell on the Suites, but if we look at Downtown Phoenix, if we look at Tempe' or Scottsdale, there just isnt the volume of corporate places like Boston, Toronto & elsewhere have on their doorsteps so arguing youve gotta be East Valley or Downtown entirely misses the point. Its just so absurd to me I cant even get my head around how they could think that such an argument could be sold to anyone yet again, here we are.


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03-20-2017, 03:56 PM
  #227
MNNumbers
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Any word on the Legislature?

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03-20-2017, 04:01 PM
  #228
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Any word on the Legislature?
The word is...mum

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03-20-2017, 04:36 PM
  #229
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The word is...mum
... table all set by Elder Worsley.... no one willing to sup with the Devil?... Spoons not long enough?.. Heathens. Non Believers. Why, it wont cost you a dime.

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03-20-2017, 04:42 PM
  #230
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Any word on the Legislature?
... its said April is the cruelest month...I guess well find out if thats true, Bettman having a small window of opportunity beginning next week to walk back his words of the past couple of weeks if as expected Worsleys Bill goes out like a lamb.

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03-20-2017, 04:59 PM
  #231
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If Downtown is too far, and the suburbs are bad where the heck are the fans then......
want it to be convenient to the fans attending, just put it next to the airport.
Someone (aqib?) posted the TV ratings here recently one or two threads ago. Therein lies the real problem. This team doesn't have enough real fans. I understand people electing to vote with their wallets & staying home if the team stinks. However, if they had any type of fanbase, the ratings wouldn't be as abysmal as they are. They simply do not have enough fans in the market to sustain them.

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03-20-2017, 05:03 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
... table all set by Elder Worsley.... no one willing to sup with the Devil?... Spoons not long enough?.. Heathens. Non Believers. Why, it wont cost you a dime.
Nothing wrong with the spoon...nothing wrong at all...


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03-20-2017, 05:27 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by Boris Zubov View Post
Someone (aqib?) posted the TV ratings here recently one or two threads ago. Therein lies the real problem. This team doesn't have enough real fans. I understand people electing to vote with their wallets & staying home if the team stinks. However, if they had any type of fanbase, the ratings wouldn't be as abysmal as they are. They simply do not have enough fans in the market to sustain them.
I stated the TV rating numbers in this post...and aqib stated his take in this post...

Either way...your statement on 'real fans' and 'abysmal' ratings seem to go hand-in-hand...

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03-20-2017, 06:11 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by Boris Zubov View Post
Someone (aqib?) posted the TV ratings here recently one or two threads ago. Therein lies the real problem. This team doesn't have enough real fans. I understand people electing to vote with their wallets & staying home if the team stinks. However, if they had any type of fanbase, the ratings wouldn't be as abysmal as they are. They simply do not have enough fans in the market to sustain them.
That is the elephant in the room. If you are a fan of the team and for various reasons do not attend the game, you would be watching on TV. The TV ratings do not support that. If you can't afford to attend a game then you subscribe to a service that carries the game(s), we see no evidence of that. I asked a question last summer, that went unanswered, but again, was the 2016 NHL entry draft carried in the market, and if so...what were the ratings? Hockey fans watch that kind of thing and with the #1 selection being from Arizona there should have been a large interested audience.

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03-20-2017, 06:39 PM
  #235
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^^^ No idea what the ratings were for that, however... on Friday, December 23, 2016.... the Leafs visited GRA, first NHL game for Matthews in front of his hometown and coincidentally... the 1,500th game of Shane Doans career so really a doubly auspicious evening.... Announced Attendance was 14,377 (Leafs 4, Coyotes 1 - Matthews had 1A, +2 on the night / Doan had 1G, +1).... Again, no idea what the tv ratings were.... but there not good. Never have been. The argument that the NHL clings to Arizona because of "potential ratings" simply doesnt hold water. NBC doesnt care about 10-20-30yrs from now. All those executives, long since fired. Local broadcast deal, the numbers so bad the team wont release them.

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03-20-2017, 07:20 PM
  #236
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The lack of any real insightful media releases on this story is IMO another red flag for lack of market interest. The story is out there about the team and their difficulties, yet no one asks any hard questions and the fan base(?) seems fine with basing their opinions solely on NHL/IA press releases. If I were a fan of this team, that type of news coverage would not be acceptable. Those in local media have made the decision that there is not enough interest in this story to assign any resources, so they just print what they are told. No critical thought at all

Especially, following Bettman's letter to the senate. Media just goes along with the idea the Glendale will not work. No one really asks why..they just accept that people will not drive 20 miles ,under any circumstance, to go to a game.


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03-20-2017, 07:23 PM
  #237
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Senate COW agenda for March 21...four House bills...no Senate bills...

News at 11...SB1149 is still dead...

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03-20-2017, 07:30 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
^^^ No idea what the ratings were for that, however... on Friday, December 23, 2016.... the Leafs visited GRA, first NHL game for Matthews in front of his hometown and coincidentally... the 1,500th game of Shane Doans career so really a doubly auspicious evening.... Announced Attendance was 14,377 (Leafs 4, Coyotes 1 - Matthews had 1A, +2 on the night / Doan had 1G, +1).... Again, no idea what the tv ratings were.... but there not good. Never have been. The argument that the NHL clings to Arizona because of "potential ratings" simply doesnt hold water. NBC doesnt care about 10-20-30yrs from now. All those executives, long since fired. Local broadcast deal, the numbers so bad the team wont release them.
Well...it was Christmas Eve Eve and Dr. Seussí How the Grinch Stole Christmas was on TV and had the Number 1 rating...

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03-20-2017, 07:32 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by Llama19 View Post
Senate COW agenda for March 21...four House bills...no Senate bills...

News at 11...SB1149 is still dead...
Indeed. With credit to Monty Python, "it is an ex-parrott."

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03-20-2017, 07:39 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by Llama19 View Post
Senate COW agenda for March 21...four House bills...no Senate bills...

News at 11...SB1149 is still dead...
I am not all that familiar how things go down but......could the bill be entered at the last possible instance in a hope that those opposed skip out the day of the vote as they don't expect it to happen and those in favour all show up and vote it through?

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03-20-2017, 07:44 PM
  #241
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I am not all that familiar how things go down but......could the bill be entered at the last possible instance in a hope that those opposed skip out the day of the vote as they don't expect it to happen and those in favour all show up and vote it through?
As long as there is a quorum...yes...

Those in favor of SB1149...still no...

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03-20-2017, 08:06 PM
  #242
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I am not all that familiar how things go down but......could the bill be entered at the last possible instance in a hope that those opposed skip out the day of the vote as they don't expect it to happen and those in favour all show up and vote it through?
Politician only play that kind of game when they got enough support internally, and nobody interested in scoring political points at your expense. Frankly all I see is downside for senators in passing this rob Peter to pay Paul bill. If Peter was a out of state town maybe, but it right in their backyard.

Hell the NHL would have better luck pitting Utah or New Mexico against Arizona. Take the clown show out of state, but right next door. Maybe you find more suckers willing to bankroll your business there.

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03-20-2017, 08:12 PM
  #243
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I am not all that familiar how things go down but......could the bill be entered at the last possible instance in a hope that those opposed skip out the day of the vote as they don't expect it to happen and those in favour all show up and vote it through?
What Llama writes above is true . . . for the Senate floor vote called Committee of the Whole. If only 20 Senators were present for the vote in COW, the bill could pass by just 11-9. But there would still have to be a third reading, a final Senate vote held at least a day after the Committee of the Whole vote. At that vote, a majority of the whole Senate is needed to advance the bill to the House. So in our hypothetical, if there were only 20 Senators present, it would need to win by a margin of 16-4 (or 16-14, if all Senators are present).

LeBlanc really needed the partnership with ASU to get some of their scientists to clone Worsley and his co-sponsors, because without that, there just aren't enough pro-arena funding Senators to get to 16 for that final vote.

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03-20-2017, 08:24 PM
  #244
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Originally Posted by Llama19 View Post
As long as there is a quorum...yes...

Those in favor of SB1149...still no...
Thanks.

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Originally Posted by WildGopher View Post
What Llama writes above is true . . . for the Senate floor vote called Committee of the Whole. If only 20 Senators were present for the vote in COW, the bill could pass by just 11-9. But there would still have to be a third reading, a final Senate vote held at least a day after the Committee of the Whole vote. At that vote, a majority of the whole Senate is needed to advance the bill to the House. So in our hypothetical, if there were only 20 Senators present, it would need to win by a margin of 16-4 (or 16-14, if all Senators are present).

LeBlanc really needed the partnership with ASU to get some of their scientists to clone Worsley and his co-sponsors, because without that, there just aren't enough pro-arena funding Senators to get to 16 for that final vote.
OK - so there are some checks and balances in place to avoid the state writing blank checks to Leblank.

Thanks for the detailed explanation. It seems with such little support thus far and with a fraction of a fortnight to go that some real horsetrading may need to happen for there to be any hope for IA and their new arena in this legislative session.

Although L'ill Gary and Barroway were scorching the earth around Glendale. I wonder if they could enter the next legislative session with a bill to surround GRA with a special taxing district for the Coyotes?

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03-20-2017, 08:34 PM
  #245
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Thanks.



OK - so there are some checks and balances in place to avoid the state writing blank checks to Leblank.

Thanks for the detailed explanation. It seems with such little support thus far and with a fraction of a fortnight to go that some real horsetrading may need to happen for there to be any hope for IA and their new arena in this legislative session.

Although L'ill Gary and Barroway were scorching the earth around Glendale. I wonder if they could enter the next legislative session with a bill to surround GRA with a special taxing district for the Coyotes?
Some of the longer-termers around here like Whileee and Killion (I don't mean to leave anyone out) have written about the effort to create a CFD - Community Facilities District, if I have that right - around the Glendale arena several years back. I was just a reader here then, but my memory is that a portion of the business proceeds in the district would have gone to the Coyotes; or to the city, and thus, indirectly to the Coyotes. But businesses didn't want to pay - one of many schemes to follow to get money flowing to the 'Yotes. So it's been proposed and rejected. Maybe someone here can elaborate - didn't Ellman initially consider a similar scheme for his proposed Scottsdale arena?

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03-20-2017, 08:41 PM
  #246
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Originally Posted by Llama19 View Post
Senate COW agenda for March 21...four House bills...no Senate bills...

News at 11...SB1149 is still dead...
"It has ceased to be."



Bettman had a public hissy fit and the AZ legislature said, "yah, whatever".

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03-20-2017, 08:42 PM
  #247
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I asked a question last summer, that went unanswered, but again, was the 2016 NHL entry draft carried in the market, and if so...what were the ratings?
It was not broadcast locally except on NHL Network. I had to pir-- I mean, I had to be creative in finding a TSN stream in order to find out what was going on and who we drafted.

By the way, half of our broadcast games are on FSN's alternate channel. I don't know whether basic cable packages get this channel (I have the Cox Contour package so I do, but I know at one point FSN+ was limited to an extended cable package. That could have changed recently, though.) so I don't know if that affects local ratings.

Also, if you hear ANYONE saying that downtown is too far, you know you are listening to a special, very loud minority of special snowflakes who will only consider going to a game if it's virtually in their backyard. You can safely discount these people as loons.

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03-20-2017, 08:44 PM
  #248
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Some of the longer-termers around here like Whileee and Killion (I don't mean to leave anyone out) have written about the effort to create a CFD - Community Facilities District, if I have that right - around the Glendale arena several years back. I was just a reader here then, but my memory is that a portion of the business proceeds in the district would have gone to the Coyotes; or to the city, and thus, indirectly to the Coyotes. But businesses didn't want to pay - one of many schemes to follow to get money flowing to the 'Yotes. So it's been proposed and rejected. Maybe someone here can elaborate - didn't Ellman initially consider a similar scheme for his proposed Scottsdale arena?
Yes, it was a CFD where if I recall an additional tax would be collected at Westgate Businesses and put in the pockets of the hockey club. It may not have passed the Goldwater sniff test back then and business owners weren't all too keen on it either.

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03-20-2017, 08:45 PM
  #249
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^^^ No idea what the ratings were for that, however... on Friday, December 23, 2016.... the Leafs visited GRA, first NHL game for Matthews in front of his hometown and coincidentally... the 1,500th game of Shane Doans career so really a doubly auspicious evening.... Announced Attendance was 14,377 (Leafs 4, Coyotes 1 - Matthews had 1A, +2 on the night / Doan had 1G, +1).... Again, no idea what the tv ratings were.... but there not good. Never have been. The argument that the NHL clings to Arizona because of "potential ratings" simply doesnt hold water. NBC doesnt care about 10-20-30yrs from now. All those executives, long since fired. Local broadcast deal, the numbers so bad the team wont release them.
LA Kings have had a team for 50 years, play in the 2nd biggest tv market in the country, had Wayne Gretzky on their team and recently won 2 stanley cups....yet their tv numbers arent that impressive. NBC still doesnt care that much about LA. They showcase teams like Chicago Detroit Philadelphia Boston etc. Phoenix will never be a big tv market. Even relatively successful sunbelt teams like Tampa and Nashville have weak tv ratings. It is what it is. If the LA Kings cant become mainstream after 50 years what chance do markets like Phoenix have? Hockey will always be a niche sport in the southern US.

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03-20-2017, 08:51 PM
  #250
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From way back....There were just a few moving parts. Good article to read all these years later.

Quote:
However, since Reinsdorf's agreement calls for taxpayers and businesses in the suburban community to foot as much as $165-million (all currency U.S.) of the purchase price and the annual operating losses, plus gives the Chicago White Sox owner an escape clause after five years, there is no guarantee the lease proposal will survive even if council approves it. Carrie Ann Sitren, a lawyer for the Goldwater Institute, said recently the conservative watchdog group will be studying any lease agreement closely and will not hesitate to take the city to court if it feels Arizona laws against public subsidies for private corporations are being violated.
Quote:
Glendale agreed to create the CFD, a taxing authority, within 120 days of a lease agreement. The authority is to sell bonds and collect other revenues from the district, likely sales tax and levies on businesses.



The proceeds from the bonds and other revenue will be used to make three annual payments to the NHL for a total of $65-million. In addition, the proceeds will be used to create an "operating loss reserve account" that will collect $25-million a year with a cap of $100-million and seven years. Parking charges at the arena will also go into the operating-loss account, and if any are left over after payments to the NHL and for team losses, the money will go to Glendale. Plus, the CFD will obtain a letter of credit as a backup to cover the Coyotes' losses.



After the fifth year of the agreement, if the operating-loss account does not have enough money to pay for the Coyotes' losses, Glendale is on the hook. The city will have to make up the shortfall itself or allow Reinsdorf to sell the team to someone who could move it. The city may find a buyer, but Reinsdorf will be guaranteed no less than $103-million for the team.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle4314486/

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