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Marc Bergevin - At Least We Got a New Coach Edition

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Old
03-20-2017, 03:27 PM
  #151
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^ There's nothing to suggest he couldn't move Flynn tomorrow if he were so inclined. Or any other number of the 50 contracts we have on the books to make room for another one.

Until I see some evidence that we were prevented from making a move because we're too close to the contract limit, complaining about it feels like a desperate grab at straws to find something to use against him.

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03-20-2017, 03:54 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by HBDay View Post
Tangradi: Was an AHL pick up, played 7 games with Montreal. Not fair man. As an AHL pick up he got 31 points in 48 games sprinkled with a few fights so yes, praise.

John Scott: Again was never a pick up for the NHL club. Just a cog in one of the oddest trades we've seen and one we will not fully understand. Again as an AHL pick up, no problems.

George Parros: At the time we were begging ( especially on these boards, and probably even you) for a tough guy who could fight. Bergevin got us that. And honestly, I kind of liked him.

Lucas Lessio: Again, why are you listing players brought in for the AHL club as mistakes?

Tomas Fleischman: Scored 10 goals and 10 assists and fetched us a deadline return. Hardly a big mistake.

The other guy's listed sure, he gambled and lost. But that happens, sometimes under a lot worse circumstances than what Bergevin has done.
I merely listed every forward I could think of. Lessio played some games with the big club as well. BargainBin gambled and lost - that's why we had doubts about the Byron extension. That's it! I was giving CONTEXT to the ire at the time. The ire was well-earned because it had been 4 years, 5 now, that he hadn't added GOOD forwards to the core. We have Radulov under contract for like less than a month. If he leaves - what then? Paul Byron will be the best forward acquired and retained by BargainBin, followed by 3rd liner Danault.

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Originally Posted by jaffy27 View Post
Love these initial quotes after the Byron signing.......

This is probably why he saw Byron as a good player and you didn't

I believe he's one of the best discounts in the league, he and Paccioretty

Really?

Although, I have to give you props, you did mention later in this quote that we'd have to get rid of DD aand Andrighetto to maybe like this deal.

Sometimes, it's just better if we let the pros do the dealing
And what about the other signings, extensions, and trades? What about the context in which those posts were made?

Ah nothing to say, have we?

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Originally Posted by HabsGorgeous View Post
Go to the MB bashing thread if you want to nit pick all the little negative moves MB has made. At the end of the day, MB claimed Byron and then signed him to a 3 year deal when a lot of people were wondering why. Byron has proved himself and he's been great for the Habs. Great move by MB and awesome for Byron to prove himself. Lets hope he can continue this and set his family up well financially in his next contract.

Byron's been a great story for the Habs this year. I was skeptical myself as to where this guy fit in the line-up but he's proved me and so many others wrong.
I'm not nitpicking, I'm offering context to a very real discussion: should Habs fans have doubted the Paul Byron extension? I think it's not just a surprise but a big surprise that Byron made it this far and scored 20 goals. The odds were stacked against him and will remain stacked against him. It is what it is, he's a very small but very quick player. I wish him well and am glad he's on our team. But he's not a core player and he hasn't shown it in the playoffs.

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Very well, and the people who were wrong about Byron and who bashed Bergevin when he signed the deal should admit that they were wrong. Seems only fair.

Biggest bang for your buck 20 goal scorer in the league but "lololol bargainbin amirite".
The move, at the time, within that context was another bargainbin move.

I don't think anybody was *wrong* in their reaction. No one would've predicted 20 goals from Byron. Not his Junior and AHL coaches, not the entire Flames staff, and not even the Habs staff. Classic blind squirrel or whatever. But even then - great that it's working, very good. Let's see him open up defenses in the playoffs with his speed (I hope he can, I trust he can) - let's see him keep it up. But that doesn't change the context in which we got him and extended him, and it doesn't make our (my) reaction wrong.

A calamitous collapse, the Ben Scrivens and John Scott trades, doubling down on Therrien (who needed BIGGER players, not smaller for his chip and chase system)... an upcoming trade deadline and he extends Byron mid-season. It appeared to be lunacy.

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^ There's nothing to suggest he couldn't move Flynn tomorrow if he were so inclined. Or any other number of the 50 contracts we have on the books to make room for another one.

Until I see some evidence that we were prevented from making a move because we're too close to the contract limit, complaining about it feels like a desperate grab at straws to find something to use against him.
If the best virtue of a player is that his contract could be buried or dealt at a moment's notice - then he's not a worthwhile player. We've heard this line about many bargain bin acquisitions. Doesn't make 'em good.

And you're right - having Byron didn't hurt us at all. But at the time, in that context, it didn't help us much at all. And after months of bargain binning with the likes of Matteau, Flash and Semin, it was just a massive facepalm to see a waiver-wire player extended. That's all.

I'm happy he's doing well, and enjoy the depth he brings. I hope he can bring it in the playoffs (his speed should really help him) and I hope he can bring it next year. I won't be surprised if he doesn't or can't.

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Old
03-20-2017, 04:11 PM
  #153
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I lose all the time, and have no interest in having it at both ends...or any end for that matter. It's OK to disagree and look at things objectively, and I won't typecast you for doing it.

But a does of reality here. Byron was picked up on waivers the day after Kassian entered stage 2 of the NHL abuse program. It wasn't really a stroke of genius, it was a need. If the Kassian situation didn't develop, I don't believe we go looking at waivers. He was filling a recently developed hole in the line up, and didn't want De La Rose playing those minutes. That doesn't strike me as brilliance.

Bergevin's picked a LOT of guys who didn't work out as more than competent 4th liners, and that doesn't make him necessarily bad either but using your logic it does? I'm finding that thinking hard to follow.

If you want to talk Bergevin success's, how about the Radulov signing? Fantastic move, ballsy and at a then gamble of millions of dollars. One of the best moves of the offseason by any GM last year. He's made good moves since. Can we move past the part where you are stuck on him not getting credit because I am?
And this is what an anti Bergevin poster sounds like......

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Old
03-20-2017, 04:13 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
I merely listed every forward I could think of. Lessio played some games with the big club as well. BargainBin gambled and lost - that's why we had doubts about the Byron extension. That's it! I was giving CONTEXT to the ire at the time. The ire was well-earned because it had been 4 years, 5 now, that he hadn't added GOOD forwards to the core. We have Radulov under contract for like less than a month. If he leaves - what then? Paul Byron will be the best forward acquired and retained by BargainBin, followed by 3rd liner Danault.


And what about the other signings, extensions, and trades? What about the context in which those posts were made?

Ah nothing to say, have we?


I'm not nitpicking, I'm offering context to a very real discussion: should Habs fans have doubted the Paul Byron extension? I think it's not just a surprise but a big surprise that Byron made it this far and scored 20 goals. The odds were stacked against him and will remain stacked against him. It is what it is, he's a very small but very quick player. I wish him well and am glad he's on our team. But he's not a core player and he hasn't shown it in the playoffs.


The move, at the time, within that context was another bargainbin move.

I don't think anybody was *wrong* in their reaction. No one would've predicted 20 goals from Byron. Not his Junior and AHL coaches, not the entire Flames staff, and not even the Habs staff. Classic blind squirrel or whatever. But even then - great that it's working, very good. Let's see him open up defenses in the playoffs with his speed (I hope he can, I trust he can) - let's see him keep it up. But that doesn't change the context in which we got him and extended him, and it doesn't make our (my) reaction wrong.

A calamitous collapse, the Ben Scrivens and John Scott trades, doubling down on Therrien (who needed BIGGER players, not smaller for his chip and chase system)... an upcoming trade deadline and he extends Byron mid-season. It appeared to be lunacy.


If the best virtue of a player is that his contract could be buried or dealt at a moment's notice - then he's not a worthwhile player. We've heard this line about many bargain bin acquisitions. Doesn't make 'em good.

And you're right - having Byron didn't hurt us at all. But at the time, in that context, it didn't help us much at all. And after months of bargain binning with the likes of Matteau, Flash and Semin, it was just a massive facepalm to see a waiver-wire player extended. That's all.

I'm happy he's doing well, and enjoy the depth he brings. I hope he can bring it in the playoffs (his speed should really help him) and I hope he can bring it next year. I won't be surprised if he doesn't or can't.
Not talking about those ones, we're talking about Byron because we're in the Byron thread. Still can't admit you were wrong can you.....I can feel that it's so difficult for you

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03-20-2017, 04:18 PM
  #155
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Oh, by all means, just so long as you remember to double count.

Lol, mitchell, weise, flynn, etc. as ''high reward'' players.
Never mentioned Flynn.....

So Weise was not high reward???

Double count??.....it's the gift that keeps on giving!

You get Weise for Diaz....WIN
you get Fleishmann for free and package him and Weise for Danault and a 2nd.....and you don't think this is good value???

This would explain your bash Bergevin first mentality

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03-20-2017, 04:22 PM
  #156
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Not talking about those ones, we're talking about Byron because we're in the Byron thread. Still can't admit you were wrong can you.....I can feel that it's so difficult for you
I don't think my reaction at the time was wrong. I don't think anybody's reaction at the time was wrong.

I think I was wrong in underestimating him... but truthfully, I still do. It is what it is - I've seen grinders and nobodies get hot before. He hasn't shown his stuff in the playoffs and smart money is to bet he won't score 20 goals next year.

Earler this season you guys were all jumping around a hat cheering on red-hot Norris-winning Weber. Now he's as far from the discussion as any other #2 d-man.

There is no right and wrong to shove in people's face here, my reactions were justified at the time - I'm merely asserting that fact right now.

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03-20-2017, 04:26 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
I don't think my reaction at the time was wrong. I don't think anybody's reaction at the time was wrong.

I think I was wrong in underestimating him... but truthfully, I still do. It is what it is - I've seen grinders and nobodies get hot before. He hasn't shown his stuff in the playoffs and smart money is to bet he won't score 20 goals next year.

Earler this season you guys were all jumping around a hat cheering on red-hot Norris-winning Weber. Now he's as far from the discussion as any other #2 d-man.

There is no right and wrong to shove in people's face here, my reactions were justified at the time - I'm merely asserting that fact right now.
Your reactions weren't justified at all and Byron is proving you wrong. Great signing today and great signing at the time. For 1.2 Mill even if he was just a 4th liner it was a great deal. 10-15 Goals, speed, PK and also makes the PK dangerous for shorties.

Now that he scored 20 this year and has been one of our most clutch players the contract is even better. Basically because you saw Byrons physical stature you underestimated him and MB as per usual.

Are we up to 3 30 pt players MB acquired? Hopefully Shaw can get there before the season is up so that will be 4.

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03-20-2017, 04:27 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
I don't think my reaction at the time was wrong. I don't think anybody's reaction at the time was wrong.

I think I was wrong in underestimating him... but truthfully, I still do. It is what it is - I've seen grinders and nobodies get hot before. He hasn't shown his stuff in the playoffs and smart money is to bet he won't score 20 goals next year.

Earler this season you guys were all jumping around a hat cheering on red-hot Norris-winning Weber. Now he's as far from the discussion as any other #2 d-man.
Oh you mean like Ference, Wideman, PK. Those type of d-men?

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03-20-2017, 04:38 PM
  #159
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^ There's nothing to suggest he couldn't move Flynn tomorrow if he were so inclined. Or any other number of the 50 contracts we have on the books to make room for another one.

Until I see some evidence that we were prevented from making a move because we're too close to the contract limit, complaining about it feels like a desperate grab at straws to find something to use against him.
Unless someone writes a tell all book there will never be evidence. Just like we'll never know if having an extra 2-3m in free cap space would've resulted in a trade for a big name player. Yet we do know that having that extra cap space makes that kind of trade more likely. And we would certainly fill up that roster/contract spot with someone. But we'll never know who or how it would've worked out.

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03-20-2017, 04:44 PM
  #160
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Not a good week for the MB haters. His moves came up big this weekend and b2b wins against the Sens probably staving them off from the division lead.

And how about Byron and Danault. They sit 130/139 respectivly in scoring out of all forwards. I would say that these guys would be considered top 6 on probably 90% of the league. So go ahead and find some reasons why they don't count, inheritance or whatever but looks like to me we can count Byron/Rads/Danault as top 6 added by MB over the last 2 years. Throw in Shaw and Lek for 2 extra additional top 9 guys.

Best team in coming back in the 3rd period, whoever we face in the playoffs is going to have a very difficult time putting this team away.

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03-20-2017, 04:45 PM
  #161
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you can't keep crying over spilt milk though I do agree he should have likely been gone after last year. MT is gone now and has been replaced by one of the best coaches in the NHL so even if it took longer then most owuld have liked, it didn't really effect us in anyway since we're well on our way to first place.
It doesn't matter that it took 5 years of bad coaching to move on. We're well on our way to first position in a division with three tank franchises. Hurray!

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03-20-2017, 04:47 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
I don't think my reaction at the time was wrong. I don't think anybody's reaction at the time was wrong.

I think I was wrong in underestimating him... but truthfully, I still do. It is what it is - I've seen grinders and nobodies get hot before. He hasn't shown his stuff in the playoffs and smart money is to bet he won't score 20 goals next year.

Earlier this season you guys were all jumping around a hat cheering on red-hot Norris-winning Weber. Now he's as far from the discussion as any other #2 d-man.

There is no right and wrong to shove in people's face here, my reactions were justified at the time - I'm merely asserting that fact right now.
He probably won't, normally, guys who are paid 1m$ don't score 20....but if he scored 15, would you call that a success?....I know I would.

At least Weber gave us that hope, unlike the other guy in music city who gave no such excitement to that fanbase.

But really, we're looking at a possible 18 goal scorer in Weber while stabilizing the D.......is it really that bad?

With Karlsson and Burns in the league and at their respective ages, I don't believe we'll ever see Weber or Subban win a Norris.

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03-20-2017, 04:48 PM
  #163
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Byron's contract never was a problem imo. It's just over the max you can bury in the AHL. If it doesn't work you send him back to the AHL and it doesn't cost you much on the cap. If it works then you have a player on a good contract. A rich team like Montréal can afford to do that.

The problem i personally had with this signature was our bottom 6 was too small and soft. And signing Flynn, Mitchell and Byron to mid term contracts over the max you can bury in the AHL was to me a 100% clear indication that the management and/or coaching staff did not realize that.

I might be wrong but i would not be surprised if the turn around we did at the dead line this year was mostly because of CJ. CJ always liked to have some big guys in the bottom 6. It's strange the the minute he is named our coach bang we get bigger/grittier in the bottom 6. Something we have failed to do the past 3 years.
History has shown that it's more likely that they send down the young prospect whose still learning then the more experience vet who is better defensively.

Look at Flynn, he brings almost nothing to the team yet he still got played ahead of a guy like Andrighetto who possibly could've developed into something more if he had gotten more experience. Put Andrighetto in every game that Flynn played the last 2 seasons and it's unlikely our record is much different. Yet the experience Andrighetto would've gotten could've helped him become a more valuable asset. You always have to consider the opportunity cost.

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03-20-2017, 04:52 PM
  #164
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Unless someone writes a tell all book there will never be evidence. Just like we'll never know if having an extra 2-3m in free cap space would've resulted in a trade for a big name player. Yet we do know that having that extra cap space makes that kind of trade more likely. And we would certainly fill up that roster/contract spot with someone. But we'll never know who or how it would've worked out.
You guys are all over the place... Now somehow Flynn's 950k didn't allow us to make a trade? What in the world...

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03-20-2017, 05:01 PM
  #165
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You guys are all over the place... Now somehow Flynn's 950k didn't allow us to make a trade? What in the world...
It was a good week for the habs and MB's acquisitions so all there is left is to grasp at straws.

Byron hits 20G. Danault back to getting points. Weber 2 assits. Beat down on the sens and put them in there 2nd place where they belong. Habs fans should be rejoicing but we know the usual crew are probably pretty pissed off right now.

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03-20-2017, 06:51 PM
  #166
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Never mentioned Flynn.....

So Weise was not high reward???
Weise was not particularly high reward, no.

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Double count??.....it's the gift that keeps on giving!
You're saying Fleishmann was a good acquisition because he got us another player, and then you count that other player as being yet another good move for Bergevin. Clearly a double count.

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You get Weise for Diaz....WIN
you get Fleishmann for free and package him and Weise for Danault and a 2nd.....and you don't think this is good value???
You can trade Diaz for Weise and Fleishmann for Danault until you're blue in the face, it's not going to bring you a cup.

Never understood how you Bergevinians can manage to be so enamoured with competent low impact maneuvers while the best years of some really great players go wasted in the meantime.

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03-20-2017, 06:58 PM
  #167
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It was a good week for the habs and MB's acquisitions so all there is left is to grasp at straws.

Byron hits 20G. Danault back to getting points. Weber 2 assits. Beat down on the sens and put them in there 2nd place where they belong. Habs fans should be rejoicing but we know the usual crew are probably pretty pissed off right now.
care to name 3 habs fans who are -pissed- at the Habs winning the w/e games ?

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03-20-2017, 07:38 PM
  #168
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care to name 3 habs fans who are -pissed- at the Habs winning the w/e games ?
Yeah, I dunno where that is coming from.

But crickets when I mentioned that Byron is the 1st player acquired by Bergevin who scored 20 goals.

He's been here since 2012.

His defenders will attack the little things, like his detractors making fun of him for signing a waiver wire pick up to a 3 year deal. But will remain silent on the major issues that plagues Bergevin.

I will gladly concede that he has an eye for finding useful bottom line players from other teams who play over their heads here. But look at Dale Weise removed from Montreal. Maybe, just maybe, that when a player has enough ice time with the right players, that they will find production that is above their real potential? I mean it is an intended consequence of not having enough top 6 players. Byron and Weise both go more minutes than they would anywhere else.

I will also concede that players like Weise and Byron are good to have, for their roles and price point (Weise's new contract not with standing), but it's still re-arranging chairs on the ship when the integral parts need upgrading. The time to fix those areas are generally when your core is in place. Ours is missing too many pieces. But, it is what it is, the guy plays in the scrap heap and he's bound to find a few treasures.

But for every Byron pick up, there's a Flynn. For every Pacioretty contract there's a Desharnais/Emelin.

It's hard to get a read on his actual performance outside of the fact that his major downfalls are major downfalls.. which washes away all the good will he deserves when he does something good.

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03-20-2017, 07:44 PM
  #169
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Not a good week for the MB haters. His moves came up big this weekend and b2b wins against the Sens probably staving them off from the division lead.

And how about Byron and Danault. They sit 130/139 respectivly in scoring out of all forwards. I would say that these guys would be considered top 6 on probably 90% of the league. So go ahead and find some reasons why they don't count, inheritance or whatever but looks like to me we can count Byron/Rads/Danault as top 6 added by MB over the last 2 years. Throw in Shaw and Lek for 2 extra additional top 9 guys.

Best team in coming back in the 3rd period, whoever we face in the playoffs is going to have a very difficult time putting this team away.
Can you please clarify this? Tell me how Ott, Martinsen or King helped in either of the games? Benn was great.

Issue is not with being a MB hater because his moves are poor(he usually wins all his trades which is great!), it's about being angry and frustrated at the moves he doesn't make to fix glaring holes in his team.

Very happy with the b2b wins and Byron is a beast but I won't turn a blind eye completely on the lack of offence for about 5 seasons now

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03-20-2017, 08:45 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by jaffy27 View Post
Never mentioned Flynn.....

So Weise was not high reward???

Double count??.....it's the gift that keeps on giving!

You get Weise for Diaz....WIN
you get Fleishmann for free and package him and Weise for Danault and a 2nd.....and you don't think this is good value???

This would explain your bash Bergevin first mentality
No, Weise was not high reward. A ''Low risk high reward'' player is someone that has the potential of becoming a top player for your team, not one that will score 26pts..
There was no risk in Weise, we traded him for Diaz, a Dman who regularly got scratched, he had a 1M price tag and came in as a bottom line guy.

That's not a low risk high reward guy. One low risk-high reward player is someone like Semin or Radulov.
None of the other guys you named fit the bill. They are low risk because they were signed to a one year deal at a pretty reasonable or cheap price, but their potential is really high. Dale Weise along with everyone you listed but Radulov are not that player.

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03-20-2017, 09:19 PM
  #171
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Can you please clarify this? Tell me how Ott, Martinsen or King helped in either of the games? Benn was great.

Issue is not with being a MB hater because his moves are poor(he usually wins all his trades which is great!), it's about being angry and frustrated at the moves he doesn't make to fix glaring holes in his team.

Very happy with the b2b wins and Byron is a beast but I won't turn a blind eye completely on the lack of offence for about 5 seasons now
Byron, Shaw, Danault, and Benn were all a major reason for the habs b2b win

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03-20-2017, 09:48 PM
  #172
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You guys are all over the place... Now somehow Flynn's 950k didn't allow us to make a trade? What in the world...
You have to be purposely looking to argue. No idea how that is the logic you come up with after reading Sorinth's point.

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03-20-2017, 09:57 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by jayhabs View Post
Can you please clarify this? Tell me how Ott, Martinsen or King helped in either of the games? Benn was great.

Issue is not with being a MB hater because his moves are poor(he usually wins all his trades which is great!), it's about being angry and frustrated at the moves he doesn't make to fix glaring holes in his team.

Very happy with the b2b wins and Byron is a beast but I won't turn a blind eye completely on the lack of offence for about 5 seasons now
MB challagned his team after the TDL and look how they responded. These two games were playoff level games no doubt about it. All those guys who were cold have stepped up.

I get the frustration but doesn't take away that this team is still a good team. He added in the last 2 years Radu/Shaw/Lek/Danault/Byron. Byron has 20 G this year and counting.

There is lots to cheer on this team. I even thought getting rid of DD and MT would pacify some people. I am willing to wait to the playoffs before passing judgement.

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03-20-2017, 10:01 PM
  #174
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by scrubadam View Post
MB challagned his team after the TDL and look how they responded. These two games were playoff level games no doubt about it. All those guys who were cold have stepped up.

I get the frustration but doesn't take away that this team is still a good team. He added in the last 2 years Radu/Shaw/Lek/Danault/Byron. Byron has 20 G this year and counting.

There is lots to cheer on this team. I even thought getting rid of DD and MT would pacify some people. I am willing to wait to the playoffs before passing judgement.
The reason people were frustrated was because it's a good team... How is it that you still don't understand this? If it wasn't a good team then nobody would care that he didn't add anything at the deadline.

As for your 'MB haters can suck it' type posts, just stop.

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Old
03-20-2017, 10:05 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
You have to be purposely looking to argue. No idea how that is the logic you come up with after reading Sorinth's point.
Maybe you could follow the whole discussion before jumping on me?

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