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Old
03-20-2017, 07:48 PM
  #76
Habby Gilmore
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Gary View Post
Over the past 5 seasons including this one, Weber has had 221 points in 355 games. That is 0.62 points/game. Meanwhile, Doughty who everyone seems to love, has 195 points in 361 games. That works out to 0.54 points/game. So if Weber doesn't have a high enough points/game to be a #1 D then I guess Doughty isn't either.
You win the internet!! I'm saving this post for the next time someone brings up Doughty lol. TYVM

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03-20-2017, 07:50 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Aberahab View Post
My Favorite colour is W, who gives a **** about bland if it Wins!
as others who like to point to the record said, outside last season, Habs have been winning...

without this particular bland it was winning just as much.

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03-20-2017, 07:51 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
you mean, someone who was drilled the idea...
You mean like you keep attempting to do?

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03-20-2017, 08:02 PM
  #79
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We beat Ottawa in back to back game and Weber is suddenly one of the best dmen in the league!?!?

Yeah no!

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Old
03-20-2017, 08:03 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariolemieux66 View Post
We beat Ottawa in back to back game and Weber is suddenly one of the best dmen in the league!?!?

Yeah no!
Suddenly?? Where have YOU been?

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Old
03-20-2017, 08:04 PM
  #81
Habby Gilmore
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Originally Posted by mariolemieux66 View Post
We beat Ottawa in back to back game and Weber is suddenly one of the best dmen in the league!?!?

Yeah no!

He always was one, just had a rough stretch like the rest of the team.

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Old
03-20-2017, 08:06 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Lebowski View Post
Confirmation bias how?

As for Weber getting in the HHOF, based on what accomplishment? Without a Norris or a Stanley Cup, he'll go down as one of the good players of his generation, but certainly not a shoe-in for the HHOF.

There's the international team awards, I suppose.



And that's relevant how? Does Weber generate more offense than Subban?

As for hockey being a team sport, funny how you're the one that singled out Subban's contribution from last season... Ignoring the fact Subban was one of the few actually carrying his own weight on the ice, it's pretty ironic to pull the team game card after your initial argument.

Not to mention, Subban lead healthy Habs squads to the playoffs on numerous occasions. Was it not a team game then too?
Goals make a team win hockey games and our powerplay struggled to score. The year before he got traded, Subban struggled a lot with his shot on the pp, so much that MB had to fix the pp and hence had to make a trade. Even if you get a bunch of assists, it doesn't mean you are responsible for the play. We have so few creativity up front on the pp that we rely on the point shot. Even when Subban was here, we were counting on him to make that shot. Markov and Subban were doing an equal job for the passes on the pp to our forwards such as Galchenyuk. I would like to know how much of all Subban's assists are secondary assists, probably a bunch load. The transition game is so overrated, Subban was helping with that and it cost probably 3-4 goals to Pac this year as Subban was often making that pass to Pac for breakways. In the playoffs too, those passes to rene bourque's goals were amazing but most of our forwards and two of our defenceman (beaulieu, Petry) ARE ABLE TO carry the puck. We are in the NHL a league where you can't play if you don't have decent skating. Markov is still good at making the first pass. Well, Emelin blows. Beaulieu meh. Petry is good at first pass. Benn and Weber are below average BUT IT DOESN'T MATTER if our forwards are able to carry the puck to the other zone. We keep complaining how Weber can't pass but Markov can, what's the big deal?

Probably 75%+ of our team is fast enough to carry the puck to the other zone. That aspect of the game that Subban was bringing IS INSANELY INSANELY overrated. All I am saying is that Subban wasn't the saviour and neither is Weber. That's my point. But we keep defending on how Subban is the far more superior player. Both are different types of beasts. For me they are equally dominant. The only thing Subban has to his favour is......Age.


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Old
03-20-2017, 08:10 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by FazChenyuk View Post
Goals make a team win hockey games. The year before he got traded, Subban struggled a lot with his shot on the pp, so much that MB had to fix the pp. Even if you make plays and get a bunch of assists, it doesn't mean you are responsible for the play. We have so few creatitivy up front on the pp that we rely on the point shot.I would like to know how much of all Subban's assists are secondary assists, probably a bunch load. The transition game is so overrated, Subban was helping with that and it cost probably 3-4 goals to Pac this year as Subban was often making that pass to Pac for breakways.

Probably 75%+ of our team is fast enough to carry the puck to the other zone. That aspect of the game that Subban was bringing IS INSANELY INSANELY overrated.
you're talking as if players set up their own goals or something...

come on now.

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03-20-2017, 08:12 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
No need to discuss the trade.

He had a brutal ~35 games after his super hot ~25 games. 6 points and -10 during January. when we were collapsing he didn't step up, he hid like a mouse.

Now it's the Julien era so I'm gonna give him a pass. He's not proven himself a leader or a #1 yet. Not proven himself a playoff performer either. Now is his best chance, it doesn't get easier than playing ahead of Price and having the undying and unchanging supporting of the desperate GM.

And hit somebody for god's sake. He's a giant mouse, not a man mountain.
I pretty much agree with this as a visceral feeling, though I know intellectually that there are things that I can't see that he's doing, which are very important. They were, however much clearer in the first 20-25 games. I HOPE he will ratchet it up for the playoffs.

One thing he is still not doing aside from 1-2 examples, is getting his bomb to the net. This is the big weapon he has that PK was criticized for (not getting it on net). I remember PK hitting the net WAY more often than Weber has, in a meaningful way this season.

Overall, he's been improving of late. Playing with Marky doesn't hurt. He needs to take it to the next level in the playoffs, and even down the stretch. I haven't yet become emotionally attached to him, which is strange for arguably our 2nd best player (according to what TC brass would say). Hoping that he gives me reason to have a change of heart.

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Old
03-20-2017, 08:13 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
you're talking as if players set up their own goals or something...

come on now.
You can't have and assist without a goal, but you can have a goal without an assist. I've never seen a game won 3 assists to 2 assists? Have you? Try again...

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Old
03-20-2017, 08:16 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habtastic View Post
I pretty much agree with this as a visceral feeling, though I know intellectually that there are things that I can't see that he's doing, which are very important. They were, however much clearer in the first 20-25 games. I HOPE he will ratchet it up for the playoffs.

One thing he is still not doing aside from 1-2 examples, is getting his bomb to the net. This is the big weapon he has that PK was criticized for (not getting it on net). I remember PK hitting the net WAY more often than Weber has, in a meaningful way this season.

Overall, he's been improving of late. Playing with Marky doesn't hurt. He needs to take it to the next level in the playoffs, and even down the stretch. I haven't yet become emotionally attached to him, which is strange for arguably our 2nd best player (according to what TC brass would say). Hoping that he gives me reason to have a change of heart.

Weber has doubled PK in Goals this year and More than doubled the goals PK scored last year. So tell me how do PK hit the net more? Hits the Goalie more maybe, but not the NET.

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Old
03-20-2017, 08:20 PM
  #87
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He's looked a lot better being paired with Markov. Coincidentally Emelin has looked much worse since being taken of the top pairing.

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03-20-2017, 08:22 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I'll narrow down the list for you a bit. It doesn't include:

Subban: 90.7% vs. Rinne 92.3%, Saros 92.7%
Karlsson: 91.6% vs. Anderson 93.8%, ~Condon 91.5%
Damn solid post. Thanks for including facts in this thread.

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03-20-2017, 08:24 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by mariolemieux66 View Post
We beat Ottawa in back to back game and Weber is suddenly one of the best dmen in the league!?!?

Yeah no!
Are you ever going to get over the trade?

Weber is and has been all year in the 5-10 range of defensemen, after the true elite guys in EK, Burns, Hedman, Doughty and Keith.

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03-20-2017, 08:25 PM
  #90
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From the Preds board, by a Preds Fan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pred303 View Post
more fun with stats.

...or one could point out that ellis and ekholm both have the same number of 1st assists even stength as subban and josi has more.
...or that in first assists per 60 (a good indicator of 'driving the play') subban is 4th among our d-men.
...or that in individual corsi Subban is actually 4th among our d-men and 3rd in individual fenwick
...or that Subban has had at least 15 of those even strength 'shots' used to measure both have actually been 'shots' from out near the red line instead of dump in's on line changes.

listen, i'm not saying subban is bad. he isn't. he's a good player. but promoting his 'superstar' status thru the selected use of 'advanced' stats doesn't tell the true story either.

(source Stats.HockeyAnalysis.com)

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03-20-2017, 08:26 PM
  #91
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There are very few D-men that get though matches up with no nights off like Weber.

Every shift he was out there defending vs the other teams top lines.

If you watched this home and home vs the Sens you would have noticed that Boucher of the Sens tried to give Karlsson the easier match up by having Dion and Ceci go up Mtl top line and Karlsson vs Mtl 2-3rd line.

In the 2nd game without last change he wasn't able to do it as much.

But there is no doubt at home with last game, the Sens were not playing Karlsson vs out top line.

Guys like Karlsson, Burns (Vlasic and Braun face other teams top lines), and even Subban who doesn't play with Josi on the top pair since they were broken up at the start of the year, doesn't always face other teams top lines.

Weber night in night out has to do that.

I think once Mtl gets an ideal partner for him, a skating puck mover, he'll be an even bigger difference marker even while shutting down other teams top lines.

Before anyone says that top dmen shouldn't need ideal partner.. You should look around, Karlsson plays with Method who is a stay at home dmen that lets him roam freely. Josi and Subban as a pair didn't work and both had to be put with a more steady stay at home dmen in Ellis with Josi and Ekholm for Subban, Pietrangelo career took over after they got Bouwmeester to play with him..

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03-20-2017, 08:27 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aberahab View Post
From the Preds board, by a Preds Fan.
The funny thing is he's replying in part to the habs fans who go over there to pump pk's tires.

"He's great, can't you see?"

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03-20-2017, 08:28 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Aberahab View Post
From the Preds board, by a Preds Fan.
exactly proves my point.

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03-20-2017, 08:28 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Drebin View Post
Are you ever going to get over the trade?

Weber is and has been all year in the 5-10 range of defensemen, after the true elite guys in EK, Burns, Hedman, Doughty and Keith.
5-10 range, yet everybody was saying he's top 5 at the beginning of the season... looks like he's not anymore...


and by ALL YEAR, do you mean the months he was trash as well ??

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03-20-2017, 08:30 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by habs03 View Post
There are very few D-men that get though matches up with no nights off like Weber.

Every shift he was out there defending vs the other teams top lines.

If you watched this home and home vs the Sens you would have noticed that Boucher of the Sens tried to give Karlsson the easier match up by having Dion and Ceci go up Mtl top line and Karlsson vs Mtl 2-3rd line.

In the 2nd game without last change he wasn't able to do it as much.

But there is no doubt at home with last game, the Sens were not playing Karlsson vs out top line.

Guys like Karlsson, Burns (Vlasic and Braun face other teams top lines), and even Subban who doesn't play with Josi on the top pair since they were broken up at the start of the year, doesn't always face other teams top lines.

Weber night in night out has to do that.

I think once Mtl gets an ideal partner for him, a skating puck mover, he'll be an even bigger difference marker even while shutting down other teams top lines.

Before anyone says that top dmen shouldn't need ideal partner.. You should look around, Karlsson plays with Method who is a stay at home dmen that lets him roam freely. Josi and Subban as a pair didn't work and both had to be put with a more steady stay at home dmen in Ellis with Josi and Ekholm for Subban, Pietrangelo career took over after they got Bouwmeester to play with him..
the guy is supposed to be a top 5 D in the league, but he NEEDS the ideal partner to match other (lower ranked) D production...


how so ?

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Old
03-20-2017, 08:31 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Aberahab View Post
From the Preds board, by a Preds Fan.
I'm not sure where that guy's getting his stats from.

PK Subban has a CF of 55% (ridiculously good) and is number one blueliner on the team there and in Fenwick in both raw and relative numbers. His points per 60 is in a dead heat with Josi. Either that post is old or he doesn't know what he's talking about. Right now Subban is 9th in the league for blueliners in CF% btw and that's after a very mediocre start by his standards.

Anyways, this is not a Subban thread. Let's leave him out of this.

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03-20-2017, 08:33 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
5-10 range, yet everybody was saying he's top 5 at the beginning of the season... looks like he's not anymore...


and by ALL YEAR, do you mean the months he was trash as well ??
Yes. Just like including the games where pk was trash in saying he's in that same group.

When weber was "trash" who was he partnered with?

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03-20-2017, 08:36 PM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
the guy is supposed to be a top 5 D in the league, but he NEEDS the ideal partner to match other (lower ranked) D production...


how so ?
I never put a number on top 5 or wtv you want to call it.

But yes to get out the best of players, you need a certain amount of chemistry..

Karlsson who I think everyone says is for sure a top 5 dmen has always excelled with a stay at home dmen, Method..

Josi and Subban as a pair were not good and had to be broken up to be paired with someone who is more suited to their style..

And I also said that to get even more of him, it would be best to get someone who is skating puck mover..

He has had a good season while playing mainly with Emelin. I mean if you look around the league, and looked at other top dmen partner. Emelin has to be at the or near the bottom of the list.


Last edited by habs03: 03-20-2017 at 08:43 PM.
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Old
03-20-2017, 08:44 PM
  #99
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Yes. Just like including the games where pk was trash in saying he's in that same group.

When weber was "trash" who was he partnered with?
no excuses.

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03-20-2017, 08:48 PM
  #100
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no excuses.
Perfect. I agree.

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