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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

Quebec Nordiques: expansion or relocation

View Poll Results: Will Quebec City get a team via expansion or relocation?
Expansion 54 10.53%
Relocation 344 67.06%
QC will not get an NHL team 115 22.42%
Voters: 513. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-19-2017, 08:17 PM
  #251
MNNumbers
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It is just a bad time for them to try to get a team. Vegas ran up the costs to get into the league, 200 million should be the realistic expansion fee. The Canadian dollar started to fall just as the arena in Quebec was being completed and Quebecor's price tag for a team got too high for the investors to see any return. Yes it would help them with content but when will they see a profit? It is a legitimate question for an investor to ask. But it is just easier to claim Bettman hates Canada I guess. I don't believe he or the BOG hates anybody, certainly not more than they love money, or the whole realignment argument one bit for 1/2 a billion dollars Bettman and the BOG would give Sydney Australia a team.
And I totally support your reasoning and you conclusion. I still feel there are other possible conclusions. One is that the owners really ARE more concerned about alignment. One is that the owners also were aware that a relocation was likely going to be needed, and Vegas needed an expansion, because Foley demanded it.

I've given up knowing. I know what makes sense to me. But, I sure can't claim that Bettman and Jacobs think like I do.

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03-19-2017, 09:44 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Gnashville View Post
It is just a bad time for them to try to get a team. Vegas ran up the costs to get into the league, 200 million should be the realistic expansion fee. The Canadian dollar started to fall just as the arena in Quebec was being completed and Quebecor's price tag for a team got too high for the investors to see any return. Yes it would help them with content but when will they see a profit? It is a legitimate question for an investor to ask. But it is just easier to claim Bettman hates Canada I guess. I don't believe he or the BOG hates anybody, certainly not more than they love money, or the whole realignment argument one bit for 1/2 a billion dollars Bettman and the BOG would give Sydney Australia a team.

It is helping the team be more profitable is it not?
In any other city (especially Hated 6) that is called a subsidy and is keeping the team afloat and out of bankruptcy. I am just applying Hated 6 market rules to Winnipeg. Welcome to my world!!
Who are the 'Hated 6'? I'm not sure what you mean by that.

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Old
03-19-2017, 10:30 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
And I totally support your reasoning and you conclusion. I still feel there are other possible conclusions. One is that the owners really ARE more concerned about alignment. One is that the owners also were aware that a relocation was likely going to be needed, and Vegas needed an expansion, because Foley demanded it.

I've given up knowing. I know what makes sense to me. But, I sure can't claim that Bettman and Jacobs think like I do.
No one knows what really goes on behind the scenes it is all speculation. Alignment means nothing in the grand scheme of things look at some of the past alignments Boston and Vancouver were in the same division once. Detroit and Columbus played in the West for over a decade. Honestly Quebec may be happier as a Western team for a while.
I highly doubt there is a super secret relocation in the works because you never know what will happen? Carolina could win the cup and that changes the dynamic of the market ditto Florida etc. Yes it did happen with Atlanta but A$G intentionally ran that team into the ground and tried to run off loyal fans and get them to buy NBA tickets. I just don't see it happening again.




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Who are the 'Hated 6'? I'm not sure what you mean by that.
Nashville, Carolina, Florida, Tampa Bay, Arizona, Anaheim and soon to be Vegas. Sunbelt franchises that will never be accepted by a large vocal segment of hockey fans and a huge majority of hockey media, no matter what they do. When we don't sell out then "there no fans there" when we do sell out and "look how cheap those tickets are". IF they are receiving revenue sharing then they are "stealing from the real fans". Get tax breaks or rebates then it is huge subsidies and corporate welfare.

All the while ignoring the same and sometimes worse issues in other accepted and beloved markets. Double standards are OK when it is those but any Hated 6 team has to make a 20 million dollar profit selling out at double Leafs prices and going 0-82 and getting no RS and tax breaks while spending to the upper cap limit and paying 100% for their arena.


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Old
03-20-2017, 09:04 AM
  #254
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Nashville, Carolina, Florida, Tampa Bay, Arizona, Anaheim and soon to be Vegas. Sunbelt franchises that will never be accepted by a large vocal segment of hockey fans and a huge majority of hockey media, no matter what they do. When we don't sell out then "there no fans there" when we do sell out and "look how cheap those tickets are". IF they are receiving revenue sharing then they are "stealing from the real fans". Get tax breaks or rebates then it is huge subsidies and corporate welfare...
I think there's a few teams on that list that don't deserve the "hated" label and there's one that's in a class all by themselves.

First off, Arizona. Hated is almost a meaningless term in regards to that franchise. It's a circus sideshow. I think people have nothing but sympathy for the fans, but the owners with their ineptitude and staggering losses as well as the equally inept politicians have destroyed that market.

Tampa and Nashville hated? Maybe at one time, perhaps. But I'm not so sure you could say that now without the hint of a persecution complex.

Vegas... Yes some people wonder whether the market will support a team but I'm not sure "hated" quite applies. Yet.

Florida, Carolina and Anaheim. Yeah, I'd accept hated for them. Florida is simply Arizona in disguise. If or when the owners declare bankruptcy the similarities might be eerie.

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Old
03-20-2017, 11:13 AM
  #255
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The truth hurts but it's a harsh reality.

It's not normal that in some circumstances it is cheaper to buy a plane ticket from Toronto to Miami and watch a Panthers game than it is to attend a Leafs game in Toronto.

Grand-dad of my best friend spends half the year in Florida like many snowbird Quebecers.

It is not normal that he can get 4 tickets for $88USD for a Panthers game...or if that is normal, it is not normal that you can barely get one ticket at that price up north.

If prices were even league-wide, you can't deny the fact that the demand in some places would drop like a rock, no matter you call them Hated or whatever.

Be glad Leafs and Rangers fans are blind and dumb and keep paying astronomical prices for mediocre products (even by yours standards)...those two teams are the milking cows of the league.

If there was no revenue share, I wonder if the league would have 20 teams.

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Old
03-20-2017, 12:04 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by King_Stannis View Post
I think there's a few teams on that list that don't deserve the "hated" label and there's one that's in a class all by themselves.
It is a play on the term "Original 6"

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Originally Posted by King_Stannis View Post
First off, Arizona. Hated is almost a meaningless term in regards to that franchise. It's a circus sideshow. I think people have nothing but sympathy for the fans, but the owners with their ineptitude and staggering losses as well as the equally inept politicians have destroyed that market.
You don't think Arizona is hated for all the things the league has done for them.

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Tampa and Nashville hated? Maybe at one time, perhaps. But I'm not so sure you could say that now without the hint of a persecution complex.
Let the attendance slide in either of those cities and watch what happens. Seriously people were complaining about Nashville not selling out every game last season. There is even people claiming they are lying this year because attendance is always 17113 for games.

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Originally Posted by King_Stannis View Post
Vegas... Yes some people wonder whether the market will support a team but I'm not sure "hated" quite applies. Yet.
Like I said I may have to add Vegas but they are already getting hate from the day it was rumored they were entering the league. Even though the rumor had Toronto and Quebec getting teams the same day. There was more hate for them than joy for the 2 new Canadian teams. Look in this thread at the comments towards Vegas.

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Originally Posted by King_Stannis View Post
Florida, Carolina and Anaheim. Yeah, I'd accept hated for them. Florida is simply Arizona in disguise. If or when the owners declare bankruptcy the similarities might be eerie.
All of these draw the ire of some fans. See above post making a scapegoat for the Leafs' tickets prices and claims of them supporting others! To them revenue sharing is stealing and it's only the hated 6 teams stealing it! Any suggestions that one Canadian team gets RS is automatically called a lie.


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Old
03-20-2017, 01:46 PM
  #257
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The truth hurts but it's a harsh reality.

It's not normal that in some circumstances it is cheaper to buy a plane ticket from Toronto to Miami and watch a Panthers game than it is to attend a Leafs game in Toronto.

Truth does hurt. Apparently more people want to go to Leaf games in Toronto than fly to Miami. Nothing abnormal about that.

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Old
03-20-2017, 05:19 PM
  #258
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Truth does hurt. Apparently more people want to go to Leaf games in Toronto than fly to Miami. Nothing abnormal about that.
If it was an hr each way no problem id do it. But when you factor in Getting to the airport plus the cab fare each way. Time spent in the airport etc. Not worth the effort. Makes a little traffic jam seem so trivial.

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03-20-2017, 07:35 PM
  #259
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Maybe the NHL needs to embrace the Hated Six concept, brand them nationally in non-H6 markets like wrestling brands heels, create more atmosphere when an O6 team plays a H6 team. They might be able to drum up more interest in a Rangers-Lightning or Canadiens-Coyotes game. Everybody loves to hate an evil empire, like the Yankees back in their dynastic heyday. And maybe Bettman can take a page from McMahon and add some additional villainous theatricality to his press conferences and statements.

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Old
03-20-2017, 09:35 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Glacial View Post
Maybe the NHL needs to embrace the Hated Six concept, brand them nationally in non-H6 markets like wrestling brands heels, create more atmosphere when an O6 team plays a H6 team. They might be able to drum up more interest in a Rangers-Lightning or Canadiens-Coyotes game. Everybody loves to hate an evil empire, like the Yankees back in their dynastic heyday. And maybe Bettman can take a page from McMahon and add some additional villainous theatricality to his press conferences and statements.
I guess I need to patent the idea and name!!

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Old
03-21-2017, 07:34 PM
  #261
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Quite honestly, I just don't know and hate the league for that.
I'm 41 and I grew up a Nords fan, I saw some of the great years of the team with Stastny's, Goulet, Hunter... and loved the team.
I did endure the very bad years when the Nords were a laugh around the league.
Lindros saga...

Then enjoyed to see them climb back to competetivity and then.... they left
I saw them win the cup, in Denver...I was happy for Sakic, who could not, but shut down NHL completely then.
Call it heart broken or whatever.

Then, the year Trashers relocated to Winnipeg, rumors, were all around town that we may be getting them, honestly got myself exited.
We saw Bettman doing the winkle game to get us to build an arena, I get it, he needed to have a market ready losing Winnipeg.

Then, the whole expansion process came, I was quite certain we would get a team there... nope
Media all around Quebec province telling us we are relocation bound, but depending on the day, after Seattle, Mexico, Portland, Houston,Sydney, Pluto or whatever.
I hate having to root and rejoice when i hear things go bad in a market because...we may be getting our team.
I hate the league with all my heart for that.
I hate the league not being straightforward with us.

Honestly, I do think we'll get a relo, things are looking too bad in some markets.

But I hope Bettman's reign comes to an end soon. Not because I think like some he is an anti Canadian, I don't think so.
I just despise his motus operandi.
Total lack of respect for fans to let things go. Not only in QC, but the fact he lets it drag here create fans tension say with Carolina, do I dare mention Phoenix, Florida...

Did I say I hate NHL for that... too bad I really loves hockey.

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Old
03-21-2017, 11:54 PM
  #262
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Quebec City is in an excellent position to land a team requiring a new home. Seems very similar to the position Winnipeg was in for a few years. A ready building and a rich person that is playing nice, not trying to ram his way into the old boy's club. Oh, and some hockey fans being there helps a little.

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03-22-2017, 08:19 AM
  #263
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Originally Posted by HereInTheNord View Post
Quite honestly, I just don't know and hate the league for that.
I'm 41 and I grew up a Nords fan, I saw some of the great years of the team with Stastny's, Goulet, Hunter... and loved the team.
I did endure the very bad years when the Nords were a laugh around the league.
Lindros saga...

Then enjoyed to see them climb back to competetivity and then.... they left
I saw them win the cup, in Denver...I was happy for Sakic, who could not, but shut down NHL completely then.
Call it heart broken or whatever.

Then, the year Trashers relocated to Winnipeg, rumors, were all around town that we may be getting them, honestly got myself exited.
We saw Bettman doing the winkle game to get us to build an arena, I get it, he needed to have a market ready losing Winnipeg.

Then, the whole expansion process came, I was quite certain we would get a team there... nope
Media all around Quebec province telling us we are relocation bound, but depending on the day, after Seattle, Mexico, Portland, Houston,Sydney, Pluto or whatever.
I hate having to root and rejoice when i hear things go bad in a market because...we may be getting our team.
I hate the league with all my heart for that.
I hate the league not being straightforward with us.

Honestly, I do think we'll get a relo, things are looking too bad in some markets.

But I hope Bettman's reign comes to an end soon. Not because I think like some he is an anti Canadian, I don't think so.
I just despise his motus operandi.
Total lack of respect for fans to let things go. Not only in QC, but the fact he lets it drag here create fans tension say with Carolina, do I dare mention Phoenix, Florida...

Did I say I hate NHL for that... too bad I really loves hockey.
Resumed perfectly my tought on that to... I hate the fact that I have to root for a team to fail, because it's look like it's the only way we will have our back...

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Old
03-22-2017, 09:11 AM
  #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HereInTheNord View Post
Quite honestly, I just don't know and hate the league for that.
I'm 41 and I grew up a Nords fan, I saw some of the great years of the team with Stastny's, Goulet, Hunter... and loved the team.
I did endure the very bad years when the Nords were a laugh around the league.
Lindros saga...

Then enjoyed to see them climb back to competetivity and then.... they left
I saw them win the cup, in Denver...I was happy for Sakic, who could not, but shut down NHL completely then.
Call it heart broken or whatever.

Then, the year Trashers relocated to Winnipeg, rumors, were all around town that we may be getting them, honestly got myself exited.
We saw Bettman doing the winkle game to get us to build an arena, I get it, he needed to have a market ready losing Winnipeg.

Then, the whole expansion process came, I was quite certain we would get a team there... nope
Media all around Quebec province telling us we are relocation bound, but depending on the day, after Seattle, Mexico, Portland, Houston,Sydney, Pluto or whatever.
I hate having to root and rejoice when i hear things go bad in a market because...we may be getting our team.
I hate the league with all my heart for that.
I hate the league not being straightforward with us.

Honestly, I do think we'll get a relo, things are looking too bad in some markets.

But I hope Bettman's reign comes to an end soon. Not because I think like some he is an anti Canadian, I don't think so.
I just despise his motus operandi.
Total lack of respect for fans to let things go. Not only in QC, but the fact he lets it drag here create fans tension say with Carolina, do I dare mention Phoenix, Florida...

Did I say I hate NHL for that... too bad I really loves hockey.
Exactly what most of Nordiques fans think of the situation. Good summary.

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Old
03-22-2017, 09:22 AM
  #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HereInTheNord View Post
Quite honestly, I just don't know and hate the league for that.
I'm 41 and I grew up a Nords fan, I saw some of the great years of the team with Stastny's, Goulet, Hunter... and loved the team.
I did endure the very bad years when the Nords were a laugh around the league.
Lindros saga...

Then enjoyed to see them climb back to competetivity and then.... they left
I saw them win the cup, in Denver...I was happy for Sakic, who could not, but shut down NHL completely then.
Call it heart broken or whatever.

Then, the year Trashers relocated to Winnipeg, rumors, were all around town that we may be getting them, honestly got myself exited.
We saw Bettman doing the winkle game to get us to build an arena, I get it, he needed to have a market ready losing Winnipeg.

Then, the whole expansion process came, I was quite certain we would get a team there... nope
Media all around Quebec province telling us we are relocation bound, but depending on the day, after Seattle, Mexico, Portland, Houston,Sydney, Pluto or whatever.
I hate having to root and rejoice when i hear things go bad in a market because...we may be getting our team.
I hate the league with all my heart for that.
I hate the league not being straightforward with us.

Honestly, I do think we'll get a relo, things are looking too bad in some markets.

But I hope Bettman's reign comes to an end soon. Not because I think like some he is an anti Canadian, I don't think so.
I just despise his motus operandi.
Total lack of respect for fans to let things go. Not only in QC, but the fact he lets it drag here create fans tension say with Carolina, do I dare mention Phoenix, Florida...

Did I say I hate NHL for that... too bad I really loves hockey.
Best post here in a while.

I get that the NHL is a business, but I wish they'd pretend to care just a little bit. It would make the whole thing just a little more palatable.

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Old
03-22-2017, 03:04 PM
  #266
Pelle Lindbergh
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Perfect text.
How can bettman can be so ****** with people from quebec, when he wqs thenone who asked for a new arena.
Its ok if he nhl cant give a team to the city right now, but at least bettman should be gently, and not rude, that s the part that i donr know understand, also they are already partners, never saw that k7nd of attitude. And quebecor cant talk, so they look stupid in front of their customers.


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03-22-2017, 04:03 PM
  #267
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Perfect text.
How can bettman can be so ****** with people from quebec, when he wqs thenone who asked for a new arena.
Its ok if he nhl cant give a team to the city right now, but at least bettman should be gently, and not rude, that s the part that i donr know understand, also they are already partners, never saw that k7nd of attitude. And quebecor cant talk, so they look stupid in front of their customers.
I think you have to remember that Bettman has never promised any city they will get a team if they build a new arena. He has stipulated that in order to be considered for a team that a new (or fairly recent) facility is required.


Last edited by garnetpalmetto: 03-22-2017 at 04:22 PM. Reason: QEP
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Old
03-22-2017, 07:36 PM
  #268
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I think you have to remember that Bettman has never promised any city they will get a team if they build a new arena. He has stipulated that in order to be considered for a team that a new (or fairly recent) facility is required.
Exactly....

If any blame is to be leveled it should be at the feet of those responsible for whipping up the frenzy of a potential franchise coming to Quebec City. Primarily the media... and a local blog site or two.

I've been dealing with the opposite scenario here in Arizona for the past 8 years and learned some time ago you can't allow yourself to get worked up over any one thing involved within the process. I have a few social media friends who still do and have to keep pouring the cold water onto them.

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03-22-2017, 07:56 PM
  #269
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Ohh I get the business of it that he want's to have a market ready at all time in case something goes mad.

I get it's very easy to light a fire here when you're talking Nords...I expect to hear alot of say rumors in next weekend as Montreal is playing Carolina, always seems to happen for a while.

And yes, Bettman is very good at not making any promises, very good

But at some point, say things for what they are, and I'm not talking solely about QC. Yes I have situation here at heart, but looking at the way NHL management handles things is...hrmmm

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03-22-2017, 07:56 PM
  #270
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I think you have to remember that Bettman has never promised any city they will get a team if they build a new arena. He has stipulated that in order to be considered for a team that a new (or fairly recent) facility is required.
It's kind of a crazy gamble to take, but I guess that's the reality of the sports biz. In hindsight Quebecor/Quebec City (or whoever built/payed for the the thing) would have been better off scaling the project down a bit. If the NHL ever finds themselves in a situation similar to the one they did with the Thrashers they aren't going to care if the Videotron Centre cost just ~$200 million instead of ~$400 million and seats ~16,000 instead of ~18,000.

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03-22-2017, 08:30 PM
  #271
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It's kind of a crazy gamble to take, but I guess that's the reality of the sports biz. In hindsight Quebecor/Quebec City (or whoever built/payed for the the thing) would have been better off scaling the project down a bit. If the NHL ever finds themselves in a situation similar to the one they did with the Thrashers they aren't going to care if the Videotron Centre cost just ~$200 million instead of ~$400 million and seats ~16,000 instead of ~18,000.
Ridiculous. It's insane to think a cutting off 2 000 seats would have saved 200 millions.

400 millions was a great deal for an arena with a fair size of 18 000, that'll last another half century to replace the Colisee opened 4 years after the end of WW2.

Like I said, even if we never get an NHL team it'll be great for all kinds of events for many decades, with minimal need for renovations. It's a great move.

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03-22-2017, 10:08 PM
  #272
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Ridiculous. It's insane to think a cutting off 2 000 seats would have saved 200 millions.

400 millions was a great deal for an arena with a fair size of 18 000, that'll last another half century to replace the Colisee opened 4 years after the end of WW2.

Like I said, even if we never get an NHL team it'll be great for all kinds of events for many decades, with minimal need for renovations. It's a great move.
My post wasn't intended to be some hard and fast statment... I was just spitballing. With that said, I also don't think construction costs necessarily stay linear with seating capacity. Perhaps there are also some bells and whistles that could've been held off on until if/when an NHL team was secured. I have no doubt construction costs have increased over the past decade, but even when adjusted for inflation Winnipeg's ~15,000 seat arena was built for $185 million (granted additional money has been spent on the building since being built).

But ya, given the money I've heard spent on some of these buildings in recent years $400 million does seem pretty reasonable. Actually, per wikipedia, the building came in $30 million under budget at $370 million... I gotta think that's somewhat unusual.


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Old
03-23-2017, 09:10 AM
  #273
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Originally Posted by ForumNamePending View Post
My post wasn't intended to be some hard and fast statment... I was just spitballing. With that said, I also don't think construction costs necessarily stay linear with seating capacity. Perhaps there are also some bells and whistles that could've been held off on until if/when an NHL team was secured. I have no doubt construction costs have increased over the past decade, but even when adjusted for inflation Winnipeg's ~15,000 seat arena was built for $185 million (granted additional money has been spent on the building since being built).

But ya, given the money I've heard spent on some of these buildings in recent years $400 million does seem pretty reasonable. Actually, per wikipedia, the building came in $30 million under budget at $370 million... I gotta think that's somewhat unusual.
For Quebec (the province) anything being built at budgeted or under-budgeted price is close to a miracle.

In the case of the arena, because it was a hot topic closely followed by media and public, the city kept the cost under control. They also went step by step instead of allocating the whole budget at once.

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03-23-2017, 02:48 PM
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Before Vegas was awarded expansion team I was kind of hoping that if NHL goes to 32 teams, it would be Seattle and Quebec getting expansion teams. And Vegas first in line to get struggling eastern team through relocation (knowing that NHL wanted to have team there)

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03-23-2017, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForumNamePending View Post
My post wasn't intended to be some hard and fast statment... I was just spitballing. With that said, I also don't think construction costs necessarily stay linear with seating capacity. Perhaps there are also some bells and whistles that could've been held off on until if/when an NHL team was secured. I have no doubt construction costs have increased over the past decade, but even when adjusted for inflation Winnipeg's ~15,000 seat arena was built for $185 million (granted additional money has been spent on the building since being built).

But ya, given the money I've heard spent on some of these buildings in recent years $400 million does seem pretty reasonable. Actually, per wikipedia, the building came in $30 million under budget at $370 million... I gotta think that's somewhat unusual.
Thing is adding that stuff piecemeal after the fact (which that would inevitably be) can be exorbitant compared to what it can cost putting that stuff in from the get go. It's not much of a stretch to think that building an arena to these standards for $400 mil from the get go instead of a $200 mil arena could have actually cut nearly $100 mil off the cost of the same arena if it had to be upgraded as they went along.

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