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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

Phoenix CXXV: Relocating One Seat at a Time

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Old
03-20-2017, 08:57 PM
  #251
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Originally Posted by Boris Zubov View Post
Someone (aqib?) posted the TV ratings here recently one or two threads ago. Therein lies the real problem. This team doesn't have enough real fans. I understand people electing to vote with their wallets & staying home if the team stinks. However, if they had any type of fanbase, the ratings wouldn't be as abysmal as they are. They simply do not have enough fans in the market to sustain them.
No it wasn't me. I have asked about ratings in the past. I have contended that IF there really was this pent up demand from people who would otherwise go to games if it wasn't so damn far, they would be watching on TV and that would be reflected in ratings. But the ratings suck. The case for keeping the team in AZ is simply the population of the area. By that logic instead of Portland, Seattle, QC, or Hamilton shouldn't be the potential destinations Mexico City should.

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03-20-2017, 09:03 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by blues10 View Post
From way back....There were just a few moving parts. Good article to read all these years later.

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After the fifth year of the agreement, if the operating-loss account does not have enough money to pay for the Coyotes' losses, Glendale is on the hook. The city will have to make up the shortfall itself or allow Reinsdorf to sell the team to someone who could move it. The city may find a buyer, but Reinsdorf will be guaranteed no less than $103-million for the team.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle4314486/
Even way back then the NHL was already angling to kick the can 5 years down the road.


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03-20-2017, 10:14 PM
  #253
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Old
03-20-2017, 10:27 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by WildGopher View Post
Some of the longer-termers around here like Whileee and Killion (I don't mean to leave anyone out) have written about the effort to create a CFD - Community Facilities District, if I have that right - around the Glendale arena several years back. I was just a reader here then, but my memory is that a portion of the business proceeds in the district would have gone to the Coyotes; or to the city, and thus, indirectly to the Coyotes. But businesses didn't want to pay - one of many schemes to follow to get money flowing to the 'Yotes. So it's been proposed and rejected. Maybe someone here can elaborate - didn't Ellman initially consider a similar scheme for his proposed Scottsdale arena?
I dont recall the details of Ellmans scheming in Scottsdale but yes in 2010, both Reinsdorf's & Ice Edges proposals were based on the creation of a CFD in & around Westgate... the projected revenues (an added surtax to existing taxes which were then & still are amongst the highest in the country) including parking to be backed, guaranteed by the COG. Logistics, implementation a nightmare because what would have had to have happened was that Ellman who was building owner-landlord to all of these businesses would have to be on-side, assessing the tax, dinging the Leaseholders & so on. He was in full-on meltdown by that time however he too bent Glendale over something awful, the City releasing millions in escrow funds to him that they were holding as surety against the deadlines that he'd repeatedly missed in terms of construction & footprint while also forgiving tens of millions in fines which had been levied upon him as well. He'd only barely completed 1/4 of what Westgate was supposed to be, what he'd promosed, while turnover of shops & restaurants was high, market crash etc, not a good time to be opening a retaiil shop or Jimmy Buffet Margaritaville because aint no one even capable of wasting away again in Margaritaville on a bar stool paying $5.75 a shot for tequila all day & night. That place too eventually closing. Westgate a Ghost Town... Also had the Goldwater Institute rattling their sabres in 09/10/11 over the whole CFD issue, breach of the AZ Gift Clause, direct-subsidy, yadda yadda yadda.... 2010 was also the 1st year the NHL extracted its first of 2-$25M "insurance premium" payments from the city. Yep. Halcyon days Pardner.... Conspiracy theories growing like alien spores taking over peoples minds.... all very sinister.... links to Abu Dhabi.... Mubadala LLC... UAE investments... the GD Swiss..... Johnny Crash McCain... the Bush family... on & on & on.... hooah....


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Old
03-21-2017, 12:13 AM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
I dont recall the details of Ellmans scheming in Scottsdale but yes in 2010, both Reinsdorf's & Ice Edges proposals were based on the creation of a CFD in & around Westgate... the projected revenues (an added surtax to existing taxes which were then & still are amongst the highest in the country) including parking to be backed, guaranteed by the COG. Logistics, implementation a nightmare because what would have had to have happened was that Ellman who was building owner-landlord to all of these businesses would have to be on-side, assessing the tax, dinging the Leaseholders & so on. He was in full-on meltdown by that time however he too bent Glendale over something awful, the City releasing millions in escrow funds to him that they were holding as surety against the deadlines that he'd repeatedly missed in terms of construction & footprint while also forgiving tens of millions in fines which had been levied upon him as well. He'd only barely completed 1/4 of what Westgate was supposed to be, what he'd promosed, while turnover of shops & restaurants was high, market crash etc, not a good time to be opening a retaiil shop or Jimmy Buffet Margaritaville because aint no one even capable of wasting away again in Margaritaville on a bar stool paying $5.75 a shot for tequila all day & night. That place too eventually closing. Westgate a Ghost Town... Also had the Goldwater Institute rattling their sabres in 09/10/11 over the whole CFD issue, breach of the AZ Gift Clause, direct-subsidy, yadda yadda yadda.... 2010 was also the 1st year the NHL extracted its first of 2-$25M "insurance premium" payments from the city. Yep. Halcyon days Pardner.... Conspiracy theories growing like alien spores taking over peoples minds.... all very sinister.... links to Abu Dhabi.... Mubadala LLC... UAE investments... the GD Swiss..... Johnny Crash McCain... the Bush family... on & on & on.... hooah....
Thanks for the summary - a good memory jogger, because I'd forgotten about the whole escrow embroglio until you mentioned that.

You know, I'm no fan of Bettman, but when you think of the wave after wave of things going wrong like you mention - and it just never ends - you almost (and I do say almost) can start to feel sorry for the guy.

But he made his own bed, really burned some public officials and taxpayers along the way, not to mention fans in other cities, so when this is all said and done, he deserves every gray hair this has given him. What goes around really does come around, I guess.

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03-21-2017, 01:48 AM
  #256
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I hope the Coyotes do survive despite the odds because I have grown fond of many of their fans who post on these boards, and because it would be good for the NHL to succeed in this market even despite their determined efforts to fail.

You never know. They have been pronounced dead many times before.

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03-21-2017, 01:59 AM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Llama19 View Post
And the game was broadcast at 5pm while people (such as myself) were still at work. Replay came at 8:30 tonight, but since most would know the Yotes lost why bother??

Also many replays of the games are coming anywhere between 11pm and 4am with the game condensed down to two hours. Not real primo times to watch if you can't catch the live broadcast.

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03-21-2017, 05:24 AM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Slashers98 View Post
I would bet an old Canadian $2 paper bill that the Coyotes will move to Quebec City and then the Hurricanes will move to Seattle in a couple of years when they finally sort their situation.

The 32nd team will be via expansion in Dulce, New Mexico, where they are building a secret alien base.
Sorry but the secret base is being built in Las Vegas, NM. There will be two LV teams both using the same name. Beware the time shift the aliens are going to use during their games.

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Originally Posted by Mork View Post
I hope the Coyotes do survive despite the odds because I have grown fond of many of their fans who post on these boards, and because it would be good for the NHL to succeed in this market even despite their determined efforts to fail.

You never know. They have been pronounced dead many times before.
I feel for the yotes fans. The league and the team owners have mismanaged the whole situation from the day they moved to AZ. Being placed in a temporary facility when they first moved was fine but they shouldn't have picked their new home based upon who they could con but based on where their fans were located and the best location for getting to and from the arena for that fan base as well as a location to build the fan base.

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03-21-2017, 08:10 AM
  #259
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I feel for the yotes fans. The league and the team owners have mismanaged the whole situation from the day they moved to AZ. Being placed in a temporary facility when they first moved was fine but they shouldn't have picked their new home based upon who they could con but based on where their fans were located and the best location for getting to and from the arena for that fan base as well as a location to build the fan base.
And therein lies the rub: have they ever had owners who could afford to build their new home without conning someone?

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03-21-2017, 08:14 AM
  #260
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This is the difference between Arizona and Vegas.

Coyotes went to Arizona on a shoestring. Owners without really deep pockets. They wanted Minneapolis, but couldn't get it.

They went to Phoenix because there wasn't another choice. Bettman pushed them there.

Everything since has been done from a position of economic weakness, which has forced decisions to be made to stay afloat, rather than thinking long term.

And, now the franchise, having endured bankruptcy once, has close to as much debt as it does value. At least in Bettman's world. It has more, in reality.

It's hard to make good decisions, when your choices are limited by your financial situation.

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03-21-2017, 08:55 AM
  #261
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With so little real news these days.....I wonder how close they are to being "mathematically" eliminated from the NHL.

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03-21-2017, 08:56 AM
  #262
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Originally Posted by TheLegend View Post
And the game was broadcast at 5pm while people (such as myself) were still at work. Replay came at 8:30 tonight, but since most would know the Yotes lost why bother??

Also many replays of the games are coming anywhere between 11pm and 4am with the game condensed down to two hours. Not real primo times to watch if you can't catch the live broadcast.
I don't understand an early evening Monday game, no matter the team.

But, many networks do the condensed versions of games late at night. I know RDS does the CHExpress that condenses the game to 1 hour from 11PM to midnight.

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03-21-2017, 09:09 AM
  #263
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I feel for the yotes fans. The league and the team owners have mismanaged the whole situation from the day they moved to AZ. Being placed in a temporary facility when they first moved was fine but they shouldn't have picked their new home based upon who they could con but based on where their fans were located and the best location for getting to and from the arena for that fan base as well as a location to build the fan base.
Going way back... the first arena ( America West Arena ) they ended up in wasn't appropriate for hockey. The reason it wasn't appropriate for hockey was because when it was being planned and built, the people building it asked the NHL about the chance of an NHL team coming to Phoenix, and John Ziegler at the time basically said.. not a snowballs chance in hell ( paraphrasing ) . So the arena was built without hockey in mind.

As far as going to Glendale instead of "where their fans were located" ... Scottsdale and the Coyotes had talked at one time at building an arena but that never happened ( lots of history there ), so off to Glendale. Going to Glendale wasn't so much about the Coyotes playing the long-con even though today it might appear that way, as it was that Glendale wanted to become a sports town mecca.

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03-21-2017, 09:11 AM
  #264
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With so little real news these days.....I wonder how close they are to being "mathematically" eliminated from the NHL.
The end is near and nobody seems to care locally... total apathy!

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03-21-2017, 09:30 AM
  #265
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The end is near and nobody seems to care locally... total apathy!
What would you like to see? A candlelight vigil? A countdown clock?

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03-21-2017, 10:14 AM
  #266
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This is the difference between Arizona and Vegas.

Coyotes went to Arizona on a shoestring. Owners without really deep pockets. They wanted Minneapolis, but couldn't get it.

They went to Phoenix because there wasn't another choice. Bettman pushed them there.

Everything since has been done from a position of economic weakness, which has forced decisions to be made to stay afloat, rather than thinking long term.

And, now the franchise, having endured bankruptcy once, has close to as much debt as it does value. At least in Bettman's world. It has more, in reality.

It's hard to make good decisions, when your choices are limited by your financial situation.
which is exactly why you don't ship a half dead dog up to the pacific north west without a decent kennel.

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03-21-2017, 10:16 AM
  #267
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The end is near and nobody seems to care locally... total apathy!
It's not difficult to understand the apathy, though. How many years has this fiasco been going on for?

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03-21-2017, 10:24 AM
  #268
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The end is near and nobody seems to care locally... total apathy!
I think this post wins the award for Most Reductive Post in Megathread History.

But I guess it's a great narrative for people desperate for the New Nords, so allons-y.

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03-21-2017, 10:31 AM
  #269
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They need to build on the 101 corridor of the Pima Res, offer them some ownership stake in exchange for funding the arena, which the Res could easily do.

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03-21-2017, 10:41 AM
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I think this post wins the award for Most Reductive Post in Megathread History.

But I guess it's a great narrative for people desperate for the New Nords, so allons-y.
Well, your buddy XX already has a Nordiques avatar.

You all know what I think about the Phoenix market, so it's not like I'm trying to hide my desire for a new hockey team!

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03-21-2017, 10:50 AM
  #271
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Well, your buddy XX already has a Nordiques avatar.
That's like telling the entire story of Western agriculture because you found a Cheerio on the kitchen counter.

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You all know what I think about the Phoenix market, so it's not like I'm trying to hide my desire for a new hockey team!
Yeah, well, I think you ought to ponder for a moment how you might feel if the same reductive logic you displayed was applied to Quebec City.

I could take a whack at it if you want. "Why put a team in Quebec City? It failed once already and the province already has the Canadiens! What a dumb idea."


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03-21-2017, 10:59 AM
  #272
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That's like telling the entire story of Western agriculture because you found a Cheerio on the kitchen counter.



Yeah, well, I think you ought to ponder for a moment how you might feel if the same reductive logic you displayed was applied to Quebec City.

I could take a whack at it if you want. "Why put a team in Quebec City? It failed once already and the province already has the Canadiens! What a dumb idea."

I already lost the Nordiques and the Expos so I could care less what you think about my market. You're entitled to your opinion.

I'm a Habs fan now anyway, so it's not like I can't root for a team.

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03-21-2017, 11:06 AM
  #273
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I don`t believe SB1149 is on the docket today or will be the remaining days of this week! With the legislation buried until some time in the future, i have to ask, what is to become of one of the main characters in this charade-Tony Leblanc? Seems his usefulness has run its course and his skill set is no longer needed. His absence from the ongoing arena conversation speaks volumes for the fate of this hockey team. I do believe that GB has silenced him, suggesting he take a long spring break before forgoing his Coyote duties. GMDM was let go and he actually did some positive things for this franchise, Tony, on the other hand has done nothing to further the Coyote cause. He, as the league and IA mouthpiece, has disgraced both groups with his messages of deceit and obfuscation. Most of us knew that his timelines and innuendos were nothing but hot air , parsed in a manner to stall speculation of the teams demise. Tony stands today as the edifice of ineptitude that is this franchise.

Mr. Bettman, Fridays legislative close without bill 1149 should be your red flag, that this experiment in the desert is over, further exploitation of the fans, Glendale and the Arizona taxpayers is unacceptable! Be a big boy and find a new home for these players and the few good folks left. Why prolong the obvious for another year in a market that has spoken loudly and often. I feel for those who have stood loyally by their team, unfortunately there are not enough of you. Gary, it is up to you to defend your credibility by doing what is right for Arizona and the league? By kicking this can down this same dusty road you have effectively admitted a huge error of yours, each day in the desert beyond the last day of this year is on you and you alone. We all await your decision lets hope you do the right thing and move this franchise to a place where success can happen, good luck, you will need it!

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03-21-2017, 11:13 AM
  #274
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I already lost the Nordiques and the Expos so I could care less what you think about my market. You're entitled to your opinion.
The hilarious thing is that what I posted is not, in fact, my opinion. Also, my favorite baseball team as a kid was the Expos, so there's that too. But thanks for proving my point with your followup.

Losing the Nordiques and Expos were no doubt painful experiences for you, as was losing the Jets was for Winnipeg - but neither of those two markets can hold a candle to the level of pain that Arizona-based hockey fans have endured, nor the duration of that pain. We've achieved a new level of masochism here by even bothering to remain invested in the travails of this team.

Perhaps you'd be better served in a Nordiques thread somewhere, rather than in one that requires context and something besides one-sided shots at another market.


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03-21-2017, 12:03 PM
  #275
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The hilarious thing is that what I posted is not, in fact, my opinion. Also, my favorite baseball team as a kid was the Expos, so there's that too. But thanks for proving my point with your followup.

Losing the Nordiques and Expos were no doubt painful experiences for you, as was losing the Jets was for Winnipeg - but neither of those two markets can hold a candle to the level of pain that Arizona-based hockey fans have endured, nor the duration of that pain. We've achieved a new level of masochism here by even bothering to remain invested in the travails of this team.

Perhaps you'd be better served in a Nordiques thread somewhere, rather than in one that requires context and something besides one-sided shots at another market.
You have to understand that Gary didn't lift a pinky finger to save my team while he's doing everything he can to keep the Coyotes in Arizona.

That's quite frustrating to watch, to say the least...

Now, I'll stop commenting until we have a conclusion to this never-ending saga.

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