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ATD8/ML8/AAA8 The Undrafted Players Thread (arguably Top 1000 All Time)

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Old
03-01-2008, 06:59 PM
  #51
VanIslander
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I have an idea: to ensure quality and keep the "eliteness" of the list in the top post intact, we merely "nominate" players and someone else has to "second" the nomination for it to be valid.
good idea, though the fact that picks have to be justified, provided evidence of why they could have beeen drafted as among the top-1000 of all time, is itself quality control enough, isn't it? It all comes down to judgement anyways, and looking back to this thread during the next all-time draft, each g.m. still has to use their own judgement to assess relative value.

but, as a compromise, if someone makes a whacko pick entirely unjustified then two vetos will take it off the list, k

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Old
03-01-2008, 07:15 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post

Steamer Maxwell also had done alot after he finished playing hockey, as a hockey coach and baseball promoter, an active public figure in sport. However, he earned his nickname of "Steamer" because he had "tremendous" skating ability,
I was hoping it was because of that, and not for pulling a Gord Pettinger.

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Old
03-01-2008, 07:31 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
D Bryan Watson... something of pest. Was the all-time PIMs leader before Dave Schultz.
878 games, 152 pts. 2212 Pims.
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Watson was a well-travelled NHL journeyman (878 games), playing in every corner of the continent from Pittsburgh to Oakland, but one of his crowning achievements came back in the 1966 Stanley Cup playoffs when he skated for the Detroit Red Wings. The young rearguard completely tied up Chicago Blackhawks’ star Bobby Hull, and propelled the Wings into the Finals. While playing under Toe Blake in Montreal, Watson gained experience playing against Hull, one of the NHL’s most prolific scorers. After Hull had killed Detroit in game one, Watson told his teammates he could do the job. The idea was to jam the passing lanes and to tie the Golden Jet up after he made a pass so he could not get involved in the play. The strategy worked perfectly. "I shut him down in the series," says Watson. "I even out-scored him 2-1. That turned my whole life in hockey around."

The agitator was loved by teammates
http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgur...%3Den%26sa%3DN

Shuts down Bobby Hull in the playoffs? And the top PIM in history to that date? Would've been a dang fine pick. Missed it!

Bryan "Bugsy" Watson won the cup in 1965 with the Montreal Canadiens, is on the left, without his jersey, next to Fergie:


Quote:
"I came to play every night, and would do whatever it took to win"
Quote:
"Gordie Howe and Andy Bathgate gave me the nickname 'Bugsy'. I used to drive them crazy"
Quote:
... team ethic, courage,... he'd go through a wall for you ...full of energy... he was go-go all the time
http://books.google.ca/books?id=1WHN...hl=en#PPA75,M1

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Old
03-01-2008, 07:35 PM
  #54
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Really? Some links? I only came across two sites on the guy. So Green is like Hooper and Richardson, acclaimed more for their off-ice accomplishments than their on-ice skill. Though Green was a captain and had grit, two aspects which lend leadership and role player weight on back lines of at least ML draft teams.
I would if I could find some. I can't seem to recall where I read it. If I find anything I will definitely let you know.

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03-01-2008, 08:11 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgur...%3Den%26sa%3DN

Shuts down Bobby Hull in the playoffs? And the top PIM in history to that date? Would've been a dang fine pick. Missed it!

Bryan "Bugsy" Watson won the cup in 1965 with the Montreal Canadiens, is on the left, without his jersey, next to Fergie:





http://books.google.ca/books?id=1WHN...hl=en#PPA75,M1
Please spare me. Stop glorifying this terrible fringe player who scored a total of 17 goals in his entire careerr. His whole claim to fame is 4 games out of one playoff series where he hacked & slashed Bobby Hull & somewhat shut him down. If referees at the time called the game like today, he would never have got away with it.His team still didn't win the cup. The guy was a bum & you are insulting hockey by putting him in the top 1000. Amazing how many guys are famous for checking Hull. At least guys like Provost did it cleanly. Appropriate he is pictured with Ferguson who is the best sucker puncher of all time.

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Old
03-01-2008, 08:20 PM
  #56
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Stop glorifying this terrible fringe player who scored a total of 17 goals in his entire career.
He's a defenseman and scoring goals wasn't his forte.

He was the all-time leader in PIM, he did win a stanley cup, he was credited with volunteering to shutdown Hull and succeeding in a playoff series, he was praised by several sources for his team play, leadership and energy level.

I simply provided the quotes.

Was he one of the all-time great shutdown defensive defensemen? No one is saying that! He was described as a journeyman who played a physical brand of defense which was successful at times, a very tough and hard-working competitor with exceptional work ethic.

No one is saying he was a top-3 defenseman on any team. But he certainly brings qualities to a #6/#7 slot on an all-time ML draft squad (lower end of the top-1000 in hockey history).

Argue against the quotes if you want.

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Old
03-01-2008, 08:35 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
....he hacked & slashed... If referees at the time called the game like today, he would never have got away with it.... the guy was a bum... Appropriate he is pictured with Ferguson who is the best sucker puncher of all time.
You don't like dirty players, got it.

He did play 878 NHL games and got 2212 PIM.

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Old
03-01-2008, 08:37 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
He's a defenseman and scoring goals wasn't his forte.

He was the all-time leader in PIM, he did win a stanley cup, he was credited with volunteering to shutdown Hull and succeeding in a playoff series, he was praised by several sources for his team play, leadership and energy level.

I simply provided the quotes.

Was he one of the all-time great shutdown defensive defensemen? No one is saying that! He was described as a journeyman who played a physical brand of defense which was successful at times, a very tough and hard-working competitor with exceptional work ethic.

No one is saying he was a top-3 defenseman on any team. But he certainly brings qualities to a #6/#7 slot on an all-time ML draft squad (lower end of the top-1000 in hockey history).

Argue against the quotes if you want.
Van, I was there. The guy was a fringe player.

Of course, His own teamates are going to speak favorably about him.When I have the time, I will search out some negative quotes. Harder to find because most player site semphasize the positive. Don't go with a couple of quotes to rate a player. This is what scares me about the Drafts & the AT list we are working on.

I don't think he ever won a cup. If he did he was watching from the pressbox. BTW, TEAMS win cups (a sore point with me)

The guy was a bum. No way he is a #6/#7 D in a MLS by any stretch of the imagination. When he was "checking" Hull he was a forward.

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Old
03-01-2008, 08:53 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
Of course, His own teamates are going to speak favorably about him.When I have the time, I will search out some negative quotes. Harder to find because most player site semphasize the positive.
I agree totally with the flaw of looking at past NHLers and trying to assess them. There are ATD and ML drafted players I scoff at and have serious doubts about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
Van, I was there. The guy was a fringe player.
You would have seen the later half of his nearly 900 game NHL career, these years:

1971-72 Penguins 17 assists, 212 PIM
1972-73 Penguins 17 assists, 179 PIM
1974-75 Red Wings 13 assists, 238 PIM
1975-76 Red Wings 18 assists, 322 PIM
1976-77 Capitals 14 assists, 91 PIM
1977-78 Capitals 11 assists, 167 PIM

Those stats show he was not a fringe player later in his career, except if by fringe you mean role player, and you have shown you don't appreciate dirty play.

I still say by all indications he'd make a good #6/#7 defenseman on a ML draft team. Not saying he'd play on the penalty kill or take a regular shift against the opposition's top line. But his work ethic and toughness alone, not to mention his PIMs, does come in handy in an all-time context.

Yes, in today's NHL his tactics might not pass mustard, but in the 60s and 70s they were useful.

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Old
03-01-2008, 09:05 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
I agree totally with the flaw of looking at past NHLers and trying to assess them. There are ATD and ML drafted players I scoff at and have serious doubts about.


You would have seen the later half of his nearly 900 game NHL career, these years:

1971-72 Penguins 17 assists, 212 PIM
1972-73 Penguins 17 assists, 179 PIM
1974-75 Red Wings 13 assists, 238 PIM
1975-76 Red Wings 18 assists, 322 PIM
1976-77 Capitals 14 assists, 91 PIM
1977-78 Capitals 11 assists, 167 PIM

Those stats show he was not a fringe player later in his career, except if by fringe you mean role player, and you have shown you don't appreciate dirty play.

I still say by all indications he'd make a good #6/#7 defenseman on a ML draft team. Not saying he'd play on the penalty kill or take a regular shift against the opposition's top line. But his work ethic and toughness alone, not to mention his PIMs, does come in handy in an all-time context.

Yes, in today's NHL his tactics might not pass mustard, but in the 60s and 70s they were useful.
IT's really not worth the argument. So in a watered down expansion NHL, he hung on with some crappy teams, got a few assists and a lot of penalty minutes. Sounds like a resident goon that got some playing minutes. If thats what you value, good luck. If he hadn't hacked & slashed Hull for those 4 games back in the 60's nobody would remember him. he would be like all the other goons that were around in those days.

Van, you are wasting your energy promoting this guy. I am not going to waste anymore of my time on it. I have made my point.

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Old
03-01-2008, 09:16 PM
  #61
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Tie Domi
Quote:
he had speed and some point production for a gritty regular shift enforcer
104 goals, 245 points in 1020 NHL games with 3515 PIM (eight seasons of 200+ PIM)

Quote:
has more penalty minutes than any other player in the history of the Toronto Maple Leafs and third overall in penalty minutes in NHL history
Here's a tribute video to him:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytC3JxQcDWA


Last edited by VanIslander: 03-01-2008 at 09:24 PM.
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Old
03-02-2008, 12:51 AM
  #62
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Alfie Moore


Quote:
...a talented goalie who had 16 years of junior and professional hockey behind him before he got his first NHL start as a 31-year old.

Moore played in the OHA, OHA Sr., AHA, IAHL, Can-Pro, Can-Am and AHL leagues between 1920-36. He was a star in every league and was always at the top in the goalie standings.

Moore finally got to play in the NHL during the 1936-37 season when the NY Americans bought him from New Haven Eagles (AHL) in January 1937. Alfred fought admirably between the NY pipes for 18 games as a backup to Roy "Shrimp" Worters. His GAA of 3.46 was good considering the fact that the Americans was easily the worst club in the NHL that season.
This playoff story from the 1938 Stanley Cup Finals is awesome, one of the best of all time::
Quote:
The greatest story in the Alfie Moore saga came the following season and is one of the best playoff stories ever. In 1937-38 Moore spent the season playing for the Pittsburgh Hornets in the AHL and did very well, having a fine GAA of 1.98 with 7 shutouts.

Meanwhile, in the NHL playoffs Chicago was playing Toronto in the Stanley Cup finals. Chicago's regular goalie Mike Karakas came down with a broken toe and was unable to play. The Hawks regular replacement Paul Goodman had not arrived to Toronto in time for game one, leaving Chicago without a goaltender to open the series. Furthermore, Toronto refused to let New York Rangers goalie Davey Kerr fill in.

Johnny Gottselig, who at that time was Chicago's captain remembered the situation very well:

" We had a noon meeting before the first game in Toronto that night, and Bill Stewart (player/referee Paul Stewart's grandfather) told us that Mike Karakas couldn't play, his toe was so bad. Our minor league goalie, Paul Goodman hadn't arrived. Alfie Moore was a minor league goaltender who lived in Toronto, so Stewart told me to go get him.

" I knew Alfie. I went to his house and his wife, Agnes, she said he's down at the tavern, you can find him there. I went down to the tavern and a guy told me Alfie just left here, you can find him at another one. I caught him at the second one, and he's sitting there with three or four other hockey players who were through for the season.

" I walked in and Alfie looked at me and said, ' By God am I glad to see you. I'd love to get a couple of tickets for tonight's game.' And I said, 'Boy, Alfie you got the best seat in the house.' When I told him he was going to play that night, he said, ' Boy, it's about time. That Connie Smythe is going to rue the day he ever sent me down to Pittsburgh. I should have been playing up here instead of Broda, I'll show that Connie Smythe.'

" Then he said let's have one more drink on that before we go. He'd had about ten or a dozen before that. We brought him back to the hotel, when Stewart, who was a non-drinker, saw him he said, ' Get him out of here, he won't play for us tonight.' I said, ' Hell, I'm not going into those nets Bill, and I don't think Mush March will (also a forward). This guy is going to play or else.'

" ' Well,' Bill said. 'It's your money fellows, if you want to use this guy go ahead and use him.'

"We took him out to the rink and put some coffee into him and put him under the shower. By game time he was in pretty good shape. The first shot they threw at him, it went in, the first shot of the game. But after that they couldn't put a puck by him and I guess that night he did show Connie Smythe."

Chicago won that first final game, April 5, 1938, 3-1. And beside the Gordie Drillon goal after 1:53, Alfred shut out the Maple Leafs. Gottselig by the way had two goals in that game. It was Alfred's only game of the playoffs, as the Leafs insisted the Hawks had to use Goodman now that had arrived. But Chicago went on to win the Stanley Cup and Alfred got his name inscribed on the Cup. As further show of their appreciation, the Hawks gave Moore an engraved watch.

Alfred went on to play a couple of more games in the NHL the following two seasons (for NY Americans and Detroit Red Wings). He then played until 1942 in the AHL where split his last season between the Philadelphia Rockets and Buffalo Bisons.

In his 22-year hockey career his finest moment was undoubtedly his heroic effort in that first Cup final 1938, after having been dragged out from a tavern with a dozen cold ones fully savored. It's a classic story from a player who otherwise never made his mark in the NHL.
http://blackhawkslegends.blogspot.co...fie-moore.html

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Old
03-02-2008, 01:01 AM
  #63
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I came across Tom Hooper during the ATD but forgot all about him during the ML and AAA drafts. The hero of the upstart Kenora Thistles who challenged the Silver Seven for the Stanley Cup and took it away from the Montreal Wanderers. He then joined the Wanderers for three of their cup defenses in 1908. I didn't draft him because he seemed more remembered as a representative of the little Kenora team David vs Goliath storyline, and the fact that he had under two years experience outside of that small town.
I feel the same way about McGimsie. I was saving this for my signature, but I found one I like better: Claude Lemieux to Captain Eric Desjardins "What's that 'C' for, selfish?"


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Old
03-02-2008, 12:35 PM
  #64
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Sorry for the lack of biograhpical info... And I don't remember him being drafted at all in this draft... But, I'd like to nominate in this thread a coach that indeed revolutionned the way to coach hockey back in the mid-20ies with Pittsburgh, by rolling 3 lines and changing players in action as opposed to during stops. He didn't had great results, but he also had a comparatively terrible team to work with.

Already selected as a player in the ATD, but not selected as a coach. Me and EB selected him in the last MLD to coach the Syracuse Bulldogs.

Head Coach Odie Cleghorne.

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Old
03-07-2008, 08:12 PM
  #65
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VI, where do you have Frederick Whitcroft as a defenseman? I have one source listing him as a forward and another listing him as a rover.

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03-07-2008, 09:08 PM
  #66
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I have found a few more guys worth mentioning, from the team that, for the most part, dominated amateur hockey in the six recorded seasons prior to the Stanley Cup's existence. Together, they went 25-7-1 from 1887-1892 with 112 GF and 63 GA and, despite a 1-4-1 record in 1892, based mostly on regular season losses to Ottawa, they triumphed over Ottawa in the playoffs (sounds familiar, LOL!)

1. D Allan "Eagle Eye" Cameron. Captain of the MAAA until his 1895 retirement... "The engine of the Wheeler attack"... "The most complete player of the 1880's"... Ultimate Hockey awarded him four retro Norrises and a retro Hart.

2. G Tom Paton. One of the finest goalies of the pre-NHL era. From 1888-1892, had a record of 23-5-1 with 45 GA and 5 SO. His GAA during this period was 1.55 and four times had the AHAA's best GAA. Ultimate Hockey awarded him five retro Vezinas and a retro Hart.

3. RW Haviland Routh. Routh was a speedster and a sniper. He was "the blazing force behind winged wheel cup victories in 1893 and 1894". Ultimate Hockey awarded him two retro Rosses and two retro Harts. Routh actually was not with the MAAA from the very beginning, but was part of their cup wins.

4. F Jack Findlay. Not much info exists about him that I can find. But his name shows up in the scoring leaders four times (1887, 1889, 1890, 1891) with 15 goals in 20 games during those seasons, placing 7th, 4th, 4th, and 3rd in the league. Ultimate Hockey also awarded him three retro selkes.

5. D Jack Campbell was not a MAAA member, but may have been the player responsible for keeping the matches between MAAA and the Victorias close in this period. He was possibly the first rushing defenseman. "Solid defensively and strong as a bull"... "marvelous skater, smooth stickhandler"... "the first true franchise player"... "the first star player to be consistently double and triple-teamed by enemy checkers". A fierce rival of Allan Cameron (above). Finished 4th and 2nd in AHAC scoring in 1887 and 1888 with a combined 11 goals in 14 games. Ultimate Hockey awarded him a retro Norris and two retro Harts.

None of these guys are in the HHOF, but their bios make it appear that they could have been actually better hockey players than half of the "forgotten nine" that I brought up last weekend.

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Old
03-14-2008, 09:59 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
VI, where do you have Frederick Whitcroft as a defenseman? I have one source listing him as a forward and another listing him as a rover.
I usually see rovers as offensive defensemen but if he's also a forward in some sources then there he goes.

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Old
03-14-2008, 10:18 PM
  #68
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Here is a defenseman, a 6'2 210-lbs defensive-first good first pass, conservative smart decision maker who has been a hard-working favourite of some of us - on an otherwise shaky Habs blueline - for nearly a decade, a solid shot-blocking, positionally sound #5/#6 in an all-time context, toward the latter half of the best 1000 of all time on a minor league drafted club perhaps, or a utility depth pick

Craig Rivet


192 points in 738 NHL games with 902 PIM

Quote:
... a true team player, concerned only with his club's success. He has also pleased the coaching staff with his stay-at-home, rock-solid defensive play in his own zone accentuated by a rather useful mean streak. After a career high 17 points in 1999-00, Rivet battled injuries the following year and was limited to just 26 games before bettering his offensive totals in 2001-02 and improving on his season high from the 1999-00 season with 25 points.

Rivet entered his ninth season with the Habs in 2002-03 and continued to be one of the team's on-ice leaders. Although the team failed to qualify for the post-season, Rivet's performance throughout the season earned him an invite to the 2003 World Championships.

In 2006-07, after setting a new career high in points with 34 in the 2005-06 season, and twelve seasons with the Canadiens, Rivet was traded to the San Jose Sharks one day prior to the NHL trading deadline.
http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/...p?player=11382

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Old
03-14-2008, 11:06 PM
  #69
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Here is another all-time worthy guy who suffered injuries in his later years, whose impressive combination of size and skating is all I remember personally about him from a quarter century ago.


"Big" Willie Huber

Quote:
Was NHL's tallest and heaviest player throughout most of his playing career, and was tallest player in N.Y. Rangers history at the time he played for team
Quote:
Blessed with exceptional hands and skating ability, Huber was amongst the league's highest goal-scoring defenders in the early 1980s, and a fixture on the Detroit powerplay. While he was also solid in his own zone, fans often - unfairly - expected him to be a nasty physical presence, which didn't come as naturally to him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_Huber

321 points in 655 NHL games with 950 PIM. In NHL All-Star Game (1983).

In his 10-year NHL career his first five were his best:

1978-79 Detroit Red Wings NHL 68 7 24 31 114
1979-80 Detroit Red Wings NHL 76 17 23 40 164
1980-81 Detroit Red Wings NHL 80 15 34 49 130
1981-82 Detroit Red Wings NHL 74 15 30 45 98
1982-83 Detroit Red Wings NHL 74 14 29 43 106

Quote:
won the Memorial Cup in 1976... one of the top defensemen in the OHA.... Huber was chosen in the 1st round, 9th overall, by the Detroit Red Wings in the 1978 NHL Amateur Draft. During his rookie season he played in 68 games, scoring seven goals and 31 points. He played in Detroit for five seasons in total, surpassing the 40-point plateau during the last four years. However, a nasty dispute arose between Huber and Wings general manager Jimmy Devellano during the offseason, which resulted in Huber calling the GM "a liar." Huber was sent to the New York Rangers..
http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/...p?player=13022

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Old
03-14-2008, 11:42 PM
  #70
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Here is a very big defensive defenseman for his era at 6'0, 195lbs


Allan "Big Pete" Shields

Quote:
...a highly respected player who was solidly built and rough when he had to be,
though off ice he was an easy going individual
...
http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/...p?player=14304

in NHL all-star game (1934)
Stanley Cup (1935) champion
played 11 seasons in the National Hockey League for the Ottawa Senators, Philadelphia Quakers, New York Americans, Montreal Maroons and Boston Bruins
637 PIM in 459 NHL games

He was in the infamous 1930 Christmas Day bench-clearing brawl which saw even the ref injured and two police officers overwhelmed before reinforcements came:

Quote:
After what seemed like hours of flailing sticks, crunching punches and relentless bloodletting, the fighting eventually subsided. Referee Mickey Ion assessed major penalties with $15 fines to George Owen, Eddie Shore, and Dit Clapper of the Bruins and to .... Allan Shields of Philadelphia.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=1vnt...pnT8Ipg8&hl=en

"

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Old
03-15-2008, 05:00 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
A guy who is seriously overlooked hereabouts brings a great variety of assets to the 4th, backline of any all-time team, a 6'2 rough and tumble forward whose style led to a long career full of injuries:


Pat Flatley

510 points in 780 NHL games (33 points in 70 NHL playoff games)


http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/...p?player=10482

Stanley Cup Finals (Lost): 1984 (N.Y. Islanders)
N.Y. Islanders Rookie of Year: 1984-85 (first winner)
N.Y. Islanders Captain: Oct. 25, 1991, until July 9, 1996
N.Y. Islanders Records: Most points by a rookie in one playoff year (15 in 1984), most goals by a rookie in one playoff year (9 in 1984)
You are not the only one to appreciate Flatley. We took him in the ATD.

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Old
03-15-2008, 05:00 PM
  #72
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How about Olli Jokinen?

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Old
03-15-2008, 06:05 PM
  #73
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He was my 2nd center in the AAA draft. It got announced strangely and I only just put him in the roster thread, so you might have missed it.

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03-15-2008, 08:37 PM
  #74
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I had some names too, aren't they going on the list?

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Old
03-15-2008, 08:47 PM
  #75
VanIslander
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Join Date: Sep 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I had some names too, aren't they going on the list?
done now

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