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Old
03-16-2008, 12:50 PM
  #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Kautsitsin View Post
Look at the teams standings, that's all that matters.
It wasn't the subject of the thread tho... However i agree, i guess i prefer koivu having a bad season when the team is doing great.

I don't want to bug anyone with it but just don't take us for fools and tell us he's having a good season thats all.

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03-16-2008, 12:52 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Nash13 View Post
So people knocked him for putting up points last year because he had an abysmal +/- as the first line center.

Now he puts up his average point total for his career as a second line center but with a much better +/- and people still crap on it.

Please, people tells us what more you want out of an aging second line center. He plays the PP, PK, plays late in the game, and playing for the the top team in the North Eastern division and a top 3 team in the conference. He hasn't complained once this year about a reduced role and even admitted Pleks is now the number one center.

I swear some of you rather have Superstar putting up a 100 points on the worst team in the league.

I love the guy, for a lot of reasons, but it's obvious how time is catching up. It's interesting to watch because some players adjust and remain valuable, some spiral. I see Koivu contributing and can't figure why he wouldn't continue to.

I think Earl posted something about a month ago about how he has to pick his spots as to when he can impose his ability on the game.

Players on the upswing have to take over certain responsibilities as Koivu plays a more patient game. I thought Higgins was perefct for him, still do to an extent, though there's something mis-timed between them on the rush that I can't figure out.

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03-16-2008, 12:53 PM
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrMailloux View Post
It wasn't the subject of the thread tho... However i agree, i guess i prefer koivu having a bad season when the team is doing great.

I don't want to bug anyone with it but just don't take us for fools and tell us he's having a good season thats all.
And don't take us for fools by saying he is having a "bad" season.

Koivu has been Koivu. The same as what he has been in the past except he is putting up similar totals playing a reduced role.

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03-16-2008, 12:56 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
What does my post count have to do with anything? Why even bring that up?

You said it was a predictable move. That is what I am harping about. It is anything but predictable, even if you know exactly what he's going to do.
yeah I guess you're right...

For the last time I didn't say It was a bad move. I said that even if its an effective move, when everybody knows that's always what your doing... you rate of success will drop a bit ...

that's all I said...

you said I never played hockey my entire life, and that if I'd actually be able to understand what you mean, we'd agree. I thought it was arrogant ... that's all.

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Old
03-16-2008, 12:57 PM
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrMailloux View Post
It wasn't the subject of the thread tho... However i agree, i guess i prefer koivu having a bad season when the team is doing great.

I don't want to bug anyone with it but just don't take us for fools and tell us he's having a good season thats all.
I criticized him in December I think, but since then I've been happy with the way he's played and in turn the team's been getting better every week. He's going for a 60 point season playing with struggling wingers(although he hasn't been good at feeding them either) as a second line center. He's been a lot better defensively since his last bad game although he still takes selfish penalties that drive me crazy. I'd like to see him stay with Ryder and Lats personally, two guys with size and shooting ability will help him imo.

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03-16-2008, 12:58 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
I love the guy, for a lot of reasons, but it's obvious how time is catching up. It's interesting to watch because some players adjust and remain valuable, some spiral. I see Koivu contributing and can't figure why he wouldn't continue to.

I think Earl posted something about a month ago about how he has to pick his spots as to when he can impose his ability on the game.

Players on the upswing have to take over certain responsibilities as Koivu plays a more patient game. I thought Higgins was perefct for him, still do to an extent, though there's something mis-timed between them on the rush that I can't figure out.
I agree with that. Yzerman had to do the same and not comparing careers. Stevie Y adapted his game to prolong his career and was still a valuable contributor in a much reduced role. I could see Koivu going down this path.

With Higgins there is something missing. I don't know what it is. When he is on, he can mesh with anyone but after the first month of the year where he looked great, something changed.

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Old
03-16-2008, 01:00 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Nash13 View Post
And don't take us for fools by saying he is having a "bad" season.

Koivu has been Koivu. The same as what he has been in the past except he is putting up similar totals playing a reduced role.
Playing a reduced role because he couldn't deliver right ?

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03-16-2008, 01:03 PM
  #133
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Going forward Koivu's experience and leadership will be crucial. If he can also reach down in his reserves of energy and brings his A game, he'll be a very valuable asset during the playoff run.

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03-16-2008, 01:03 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Nash13 View Post
I agree with that. Yzerman had to do the same and not comparing careers. Stevie Y adapted his game to prolong his career and was still a valuable contributor in a much reduced role. I could see Koivu going down this path.

With Higgins there is something missing. I don't know what it is. When he is on, he can mesh with anyone but after the first month of the year where he looked great, something changed.
I don't mind the missed chances, or the fact that he isn't as creative a player as AK, I don't see him in full flight looking for the puck often enough. At times he seems cautious. This can be a good thing at times as last night, I noticed him dropping into the 3rd man high role when Grabs or SK neglected to. This can make the other 2 appear to be hustlers when in reality one of them mis-read their job and Higgins covered up.

I think you have to see him using his speed wide, and everything will fall into place.

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Old
03-16-2008, 01:08 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by DrMailloux View Post
Playing a reduced role because he couldn't deliver right ?
Or because youth like Pleks and Kostitsyn have progressed like management hoped and probably even faster than they imagined combined with the resurgence of Kovalev.

but hey, whats progress anyhow?

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Old
03-16-2008, 01:09 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by DrMailloux View Post
Playing a reduced role because he couldn't deliver right ?
Last year, when the pp was jsut as successful, they'd often mix up the lines, using Kovy with Koivu and Ryder, then Higgins and Pleks on the 2nd unit. This year they tended to keep lines intact and as Kovalev showed he was in redemption mode, and Pleks and AK emerged, naturally Koivu's line would be the 2nd unit, unless Pleks line was on when the penalty was called.

Koivu hasn't been cheated out of this icetime, the others earned it. If they kept last year's unit intact, wouldn't you think that instead of 53 points, Koivu would be up around 60 ? On pace for about 65-70 , pretty well around his average ? Luckily it isn't about making him look good, and the team's better served with Plekanec in the role he earned, fair and square. Pleks is on the way up, Saku's finding ways to remain valuable when he isn't 'the guy' anymore. I don't see anything surprising or negative here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
Going forward Koivu's experience and leadership will be crucial. If he can also reach down in his reserves of energy and brings his A game, he'll be a very valuable asset during the playoff run.
If they could win 2 out of the next 3, I'd love to see his icetime limted for the last 5-6 games.


Last edited by Beakermania*: 03-16-2008 at 07:49 PM.
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Old
03-16-2008, 01:14 PM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
Last year, when the pp was jsut as successful, they'd often mix up the lines, using Kovy with Koivu and Ryder, then Higgins and Pleks on the 2nd unit. This year they tended to keep lines intact and as Kovalev showed he was in redemption mode, and Pleks and AK emerged, naturally Koivu's line would be the 2nd unit, unless Pleks line was on when the penalty was called.

Koivu hasn't been cheated out of this icetime, the others earned it. If they kept last year's unit intact, wouldn't you think that instead of 53 points, Koivu would be up around 60 ? On pace for about 65-70 , pretty well around his average ? Luckily it isn't about making him look good, and the team's better served with Plekanec in the role he earned, fair and square. Pleks is on the way up, Saku's finding ways to remain valuable when he isn't 'the guy' anymore. I don't see anything surprising or negative here.
I agree. You take out Koivu from a very young talented squad and there's a void that can't be replaced.

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03-16-2008, 01:14 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
I don't mind the missed chances, or the fact that he isn't as creative a player as AK, I don't see him in full flight looking for the puck often enough. At times he seems cautious. This can be a good thing at times as last night, I noticed him dropping into the 3rd man high role when Grabs or SK neglected to. This can make the other 2 appear to be hustlers when in reality one of them mis-read their job and Higgins covered up.

I think you have to see him using his speed wide, and everything will fall into place.
I agree.

I find that forwards with a solid defensive play are more likely to be able to extend their careers ... unless they are scorers like shanahan, who always had eyes for the goals... 34 or 35 years old center-playmakers aren't a huge force in this league...

when I look at koivu, his defensive play doesn't come to mind, at leats 5 on 5... while I think it has been wayyyy better than last year. I hope he can find himself a new spot on the 2nd line and work on his new role...

I like the guy, but I don't think he'll be playing up to 40 years old either...


Last edited by THE HOFF: 03-16-2008 at 01:20 PM.
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Old
03-16-2008, 01:19 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
Ya think this has been played out ? What's next a Rib..., no way, I'm not saying it.
Threads like these remind me of the time we put Grandpa in the home. He was well past his prime, I mean he was forgetting names. On the way home, we picked up a hobo. He was young and promising, and did a lot of work around the house.

A few years later, the hobo was run out of town and Grandpa...well, Grandpa was still going strong. We sure could have used him down the stretch.

There may have been a point to this post but it's escaped me now...

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03-16-2008, 01:20 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Kovalev the Great View Post
I agree.

I find that forwards with a solid defensive play are more likely to be able to extend their careers ... unless they are scorers like shanahan, who always had eyes for the goals... 34 or 35 years old center-playmakers aren't a huge force in this league...

when I look at koivu, his defensive play doesn't come to mind, at leats 5 on 5... while I think it has been wayyyy better than last year. I hope he can find himself a new spot on the 2nd line and work on his new role...

I like the guy, but I don't think he'll be playing up to 40 years old either...
I don't think he'd want to play at 40. To be a better defensive player, he has to play a more conservative game, he isn't going to dominate one on one in his own zone so he has to play a smart game. It takes away some offense but if he produces at the level he does now, there isn't any issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KostitsyntheBagBaby View Post
Threads like these remind me of the time we put Grandpa in the home. He was well past his prime, I mean he was forgetting names. On the way home, we picked up a hobo. He was young and promising, and did a lot of work around the house.

A few years later, the hobo was run out of town and Grandpa...well, Grandpa was still going strong. We sure could have used him down the stretch.

There may have been a point to this post but it's escaped me now...
He was only a hobo
but now one more is gone.


Last edited by Beakermania*: 03-16-2008 at 07:52 PM.
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Old
03-16-2008, 01:22 PM
  #141
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Why is it so hard to say he his having a bad season ? Why does he need ppl to defend him ?

Yeah he his a good guy, yes he's still a really good center but hey he's having a bad season ! Koivu would still be on the powerplay with kovy if he could deliver like he did last year. Its not the end of the world and yet again i don't want to bug ppl with it but common im just saying it as it is, he has a bad season.

Im willing to accomodate, ill use different word to make it easyer for some to accept and leave their state of denial, lets say he had better season last year and the year before that and...

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03-16-2008, 01:28 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by DrMailloux View Post
Why is it so hard to say he his having a bad season ? Why does he need ppl to defend him ?

Yeah he his a good guy, yes he's still a really good center but hey he's having a bad season ! Koivu would still be on the powerplay with kovy if he could deliver like he did last year. Its not the end of the world and yet again i don't want to bug ppl with it but common im just saying it as it is, he has a bad season.

Im willing to accomodate, ill use different word to make it easyer for some to accept and leave their state of denial, lets say he had better season last year and the year before that and...
I don't think it's necessarily a bad season. He's cleaned up his own zone to an extent, but his offense has dinished. It's just the way it is. If they got Hossa, maybe he'd have more points but it woyldn't make him any better, it'd just appear that way.

If he puts up 80 points next year, I doubt that it'll be because he plays much better, moreso about what others around him do.

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03-16-2008, 01:31 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
I don't think he'd want to play at 40. To be a better defensive player, he has to play a more conservative game, he isn't going to dominate one on one in his own zone so he has to play a smart game. It takes away some offense but if he produces at the level he does now, there isn't any issue.
I agree ...

You just don't build a hockey team arround a guy that passed his prime... but koivu could still be a very valuable asset... and he could still produce like he does now....

but his era as our 1rst line center is over ...

I wish for him to play well and remain here... but mostly because we don't have a plek #2 pushing in his back for the 2nd line spot.

by being our 2nd line center... he exposes himself to critisism regarding his offensive game... its sad, but it will always be like that I guess...

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03-16-2008, 01:33 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
I don't think it's necessarily a bad season. He's cleaned up his own zone to an extent, but his offense has dinished. It's just the way it is. If they got Hossa, maybe he'd have more points but it woyldn't make him any better, it'd just appear that way.

If he puts up 80 points next year, I doubt that it'll be because he plays much better, moreso about what others around him do.
And as a captain, his season will also be judged by the Habs post-season. Whether he has 35 or 80 points, if the Habs go down quickly, he'll be beaten down to a pulp. If we go far, he'll be a saint.

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03-16-2008, 01:36 PM
  #145
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All right lets say it with other words, He his having a very good season in his new "not 1st line center or offensive leader" role !

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03-16-2008, 01:42 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by DrMailloux View Post
Im willing to accomodate, ill use different word to make it easyer for some to accept and leave their state of denial, lets say he had better season last year and the year before that and...
I still don't see a poor season. Koivu doesn't play Top line minutes anymore, doesn't have a permanent line combination and does not play top power play minutes anymore. He's one year older, does not have a 30 goal scorer to his right and is still a Top 30 Centerman in scoring in the NHL.

What is the same with those statistics and what has changed, throughout his career?

His goal scoring count stays relatively the same while his assists are up and down. Saku has 15 goals with 10 games left to go, where he could certainly score 3 more without it seeming like a stretch of the imagination. In his three full NHL seasons prior, Koivu scored 20 goals. Koivu may miss the mark this year but not by much. However, his 38 assists seem thin compared to previous years. Why could that be? It certainly isn't Koivu making bad passes, as everyone here seem to unanimously agree.

Is Koivu regressing a bit? Yes. Is he having a bad season? No. Again, a bad season is going from 78 points in 77 games to a projected 43 points in 78 games (Marleau). That's a 35 point drop. Koivu is going from 75 points in 81 games to a projected 59 points in 81 games. That is a 16 point drop. More importantly, thats a drop of 10 assists (projected) from the year before. Ryder went from 30 goals last year to 13 goals this year. You don't think if Ryder was on Koivu's line all year and made the 30 goal total, Koivu wouldn't have an extra 10 assists?

Don't just post the data, analyze it.

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03-16-2008, 01:48 PM
  #147
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Koivu's already on the third line in my mind, Higgins with Grabovski and Kostitsyn is a way better offensive line than Koivu with Latendresse and Ryder, heh.

Anyhow, Koivu's washed up as a first line center and he's a borderline acceptable second line center nowadays on a team that wants to contend, it's like he took his final physical toll this summer and he's not the player he used to be.

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03-16-2008, 02:21 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by Malakhov View Post
Koivu's already on the third line in my mind, Higgins with Grabovski and Kostitsyn is a way better offensive line than Koivu with Latendresse and Ryder, heh.

Anyhow, Koivu's washed up as a first line center and he's a borderline acceptable second line center nowadays on a team that wants to contend, it's like he took his final physical toll this summer and he's not the player he used to be.
Here are 4 top contending teams who might disagree with you. Koivu would be an improvement over all of them.

Sharks - Pavelski/Marleau
Ducks - Weight/Marchant
Devils - Madden
Flames - Conroy

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03-16-2008, 02:27 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by Malakhov View Post
Koivu's already on the third line in my mind, Higgins with Grabovski and Kostitsyn is a way better offensive line than Koivu with Latendresse and Ryder, heh.

Anyhow, Koivu's washed up as a first line center and he's a borderline acceptable second line center nowadays on a team that wants to contend, it's like he took his final physical toll this summer and he's not the player he used to be.

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03-16-2008, 02:32 PM
  #150
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I like and respect koivu as a person and as a player. The haters won't change my mind [ only I can do that ] and I won't change theirs. No big whoop.

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