HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Vancouver Canucks
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Canucks Management and Ownership Discussion Part 38: The Saga Sags On.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-21-2017, 04:10 AM
  #551
NeoCanuck
Our Shark Overlords
 
NeoCanuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: North Vancouver B.C.
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,612
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to NeoCanuck Send a message via MSN to NeoCanuck
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronning On Empty View Post
If you're one to follow the draft and analyze prospects, you take into account all the strengths and weaknesses of each prospect and rank them by those traits. In that same vein, you create a ranking. When a GM picks a certain player at a position, they show you how they have evaluated each prospect's strengths and weaknesses to come to a decision. So we gain insight into their process based on their very selections (or selections in the past). What they valued. What they devalued. Because you've gone through that same process yourself.

It has to be an inference. You're right, we do not know the inner workings behind their selections, but we don't have to know. I don't have to know what their rationale was in 2014 to come to an immediate decision that they probably made the wrong pick. Why do you?

I referred to leaked team lists prior to the draft as being subject to change. But all lists change. "Grouping" or "BPA" does not matter. That is the key point. Public/Private lists made by paid Independent Scouts provide information, yes, but the process by which they come to their conclusions are quite subjective. Some use analytical data to inform their conclusions, but this is still intermittent/sparingly used. In the end, when these scouts explain their process, it more or less is what is what keen fans employ to come to their own conclusions. Oh, and the Scouts get it wrong all the time too...





1. You said that the results are what matter vis a vis Hodgson and Virtanen. This then discounts the PROCESS of the picks made. Use CanaFan's question to you as an indication of this. Your position prevents an evaluation at the time the pick is made – Which I think is a mistake.

Actually, you have said that the process is unknown and so cannot be judged. So you're saying that results matter. Ok. But if it's not the only thing, what else are you judging?

2. What do you think you are conveying about this fanbase when you say:





?? You don't think this is "denigrating" to this segment of the fanbase?





Depends upon the situation.

In your hypothetical, I believe _most_ people would still be out for Benning's head. Reason: He's been an unmitigated disaster everywhere else. It's not enough to simply draft better. What good would drafting better be if he makes trades and signings to cripple the team? Let's say he had picked Nylander and Tkachuk. Is the big picture for the Canucks markedly different? IMO, no, it isn't.





No one is saying you can't also judge a tenure on the results. The problem with your position is that you are effectively saying that Benning can make ill-advised/peculiar moves, but cannot be judged until the results to those moves are rendered here. My contention is: Why not? Were you able to judge the Gudbranson deal when it was made?

If it helps you, think of a transaction or a draft selection as a result of management's thinking up to that point in time.





“The better corollary” is not about "grouping/on board/off the board". CanaFan's example works because it takes your statement and pushes to an extreme to highlight what is wrong with it.

For you, Tippett over Middlestadt still probably works because they would be in the same pre-draft consensus “grouping”. But does this help if the majority of this board thinks it's the wrong pick? If the media questions it? Junior/USHL writers? In other words, the wrong pick can be known at the time. It doesn't matter if one can couch the pick by citing it's “grouping”. It's irrelevant. Do you think grouping is any solace when the better prospect is separating himself from the next player picked?

Stefan and Daigle are busts. That's the result. At the time of the picks though, almost all of the information available suggested that they would be high end players. Are you ignoring that portion of the argument to push the fact that they are busts?





Actually BG, DCFH also said that you've used Straw Man arguments instead of the Reduction Ad Absurdum that were being used. So you'll forgive me if I don't ascribe to your view of what has transpired here. Again, read CanaFan's comparison, it is spot on and it does not come from me. It means that at least three posters have viewed your posts and have come up with the same hypothetical counter-argument. Why? How does that happen if we are not all interpreting your posts in the same way?

I continue to believe that the way in which Benning's moves are judged remain a major problem in evaluating his tenure. I know you have come out and condemned him, but I don't think you are putting enough weight on his actions as they are made. This creates a great divide in how we view him. Even among fans that think he is atrocious, he somehow escapes the full rigor of the critique he should be facing. I find that odd.

PM me about the Forum Issues if you have not already addressed them.
Quick question: Do you happen to have a link of some sorts to these leaked draft lists? Always curious about these things.

NeoCanuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 04:21 AM
  #552
F A N
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,275
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronning On Empty View Post
You're right, we do not know the inner workings behind their selections, but we don't have to know. I don't have to know what their rationale was in 2014 to come to an immediate decision that they probably made the wrong pick.
That's fine but that's not what you have been frequently doing on here. You have been blaming Benning and arguing that Virtanen wasn't a reasonable pick or that he couldn't have possibly been the BPA pick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronning On Empty View Post
I referred to leaked team lists prior to the draft as being subject to change. But all lists change. "Grouping" or "BPA" does not matter. That is the key point. Public/Private lists made by paid Independent Scouts provide information, yes, but the process by which they come to their conclusions are quite subjective. Some use analytical data to inform their conclusions, but this is still intermittent/sparingly used. In the end, when these scouts explain their process, it more or less is what is what keen fans employ to come to their own conclusions. Oh, and the Scouts get it wrong all the time too...
This is actually something you don't understand. These Independent Scouting Services need to come up with a list because they need to. But if you read the actual scouting reports, a lot of times it says nothing about why they ranked a player ahead of the other. That's because when you're talking about top picks there are "groupings." For example, Matthews and Laine were considered to have been ahead of their class. But while the independent scouting services have their own rankings, I don't know of any reputable ones that explain why they have Matthews over Laine. It's probably as simple as Matthews plays C. That's why your argument on "BPA" based on how independent scouting services ranked the players is so flawed when you ignore the fact that the consensus among NHL scouts is that say Juolevi, Tkachuk, and PLD belong in the same group of players. Teams may move a player in such a grouping up and down a list based on positional preference, upside, and or likelihood of reaching upside.

F A N is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 06:05 AM
  #553
georgevanlynn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Country:
Posts: 2,512
vCash: 500
That 2014 draft though. I didn't even know it was possible to butcher a draft this badly afterwards with a string of disastrous managerial decisions. Virtanen, McCann, Forsling, Tryamkin... the Stewart contract... unbelievable.

Wondering if they can somehow ruin Demko too. Fail to get a back up and Demko plays 15 games next season? Try to relocate the Comets, screw up process and are left without an AHL team for next season? Make your bets.

georgevanlynn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 06:20 AM
  #554
orcatown
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,568
vCash: 500
[QUOTE=F A N;131228123]Umm... you're the one who made a list of "assets that were lost with no return." You even included AHL players who the Canucks didn't bring back. Just exactly what do you expect in return?


So because I included some AHL types you're saying it is not valid to list players lost for no return. Let's refine the list then. Are you saying all the following were worthless as assets from which you could expect no return.

Jason Garrison - still in League on a decent team
Gustav Forsling -expected to start in Chicago next year
Nicklas Jensen - great AHL season and first callup for the NYR
Emersen Etem - picked up on waivers by a good team
Tom Sestito - playing for Pittsburg
Adam Cracknell - got a new contract with Dallas
Yannick Weber - playing well enough on the Nashville defense
Zach Kassian - playing real well for Edmonton
Shaun Matthais - on the Winnipeg roster
Brad Richardson - up to the time he broke leg was having a good season in Arizona
Radim Vrbata - great year in Arizona (almost like we are their farm team)
Matt Barkkowski - picked up by Calgary for the playoffs
NIkita Tryamkin - looked like a top 4 for us next year
Dan Hamhuis - playing in Dallas
Frank Corrado - spent most of the year in Toronto

Can you name one thing we got back for these players

Beyond that, could make an argument that you might have gotten something for Higgins, Vey, Stanton and even Prust if they have moved them earlier. Also you can question the draft choices lost for nothing.


You could make the argument that at the time these players were dumped or lost they had little value. But that's just the point. You move assets before they become worthless or you keep them till you can raise their value. You don't render them useless and lose them for nothing. And that's what this management and these coaches did in Vancouver. We turned viable assets into non-assets or in the case of some very viable assets did not move them when we had the chance. And you can see this in the fact that many of them are on, or are close to being on, NHL rosters.

And what do I expect in return. Many of these players were worth at least a decent draft choice. Certainly Hamhuis, Richardson, Malthais, Forsling, Vrbata, Tryamkin, Corrado, Weber, and Garrison were worth something.


Last edited by orcatown: 04-21-2017 at 06:27 AM. Reason: bad page set up
orcatown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 06:30 AM
  #555
me2
Callng out the crap
 
me2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Blasting the bull***
Country: Wallis & Futuna
Posts: 30,304
vCash: 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckylarry View Post
too funny! I was actually serious though.
Sham Sharron is serious.

me2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 07:33 AM
  #556
MadaCanuckle
Registered User
 
MadaCanuckle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Lisboa
Country: Portugal
Posts: 1,018
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Garrett View Post
Can someone who uses Twitter tweet this guy and tell him his team is going further and further down the ****ter while being run by this management group? https://twitter.com/fr_aquilini?lang=en
I did

MadaCanuckle is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 08:25 AM
  #557
tantalum
Registered User
 
tantalum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Missouri
Posts: 15,554
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckylarry View Post
too funny! I was actually serious though.
Unfortunately so am I. Had they basically done nothing and then follow draft guide consensus at the draft they'd be better off than what this crew has done. Even with the potato restrictions of signing RFAs like Etem....wouldn't be any worse than Chaput, Megna etc anyways. Team likely still wouldn't be great but they'd have more and better young assets.

Running GM duties through HF polls would be better than what we have witnessed.

Funny to see Benning talk about this great blueline depth. It was one of the worst (if not the worst) bluelines in the league the past two seasons. Might as well say "we've got great forward depth as we have 12 guys signed that are playing in the AHL".


Last edited by tantalum: 04-21-2017 at 08:31 AM.
tantalum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 08:36 AM
  #558
Hit the post
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 6,260
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by tantalum View Post
Funny to see Benning talk about this great blueline depth. It was one of the worst (if not the worst) bluelines in the league the past two seasons. Might as well say "we've got great forward depth as we have 12 guys signed that are playing in the AHL".
Torts disaster year (where the "couldn't even beat out Cam Ward for a starters job" guy played HALF the starts that season): Tied for 14th in goals against

This past season: Tied for 24th in goals against
The season before: 23rd in goals against


Hit the post is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 09:14 AM
  #559
Fictional Realism
What is going on?
 
Fictional Realism's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: The Crease
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,857
vCash: 894
Quote:
Originally Posted by F A N View Post
And my point is that you can't reasonably expect to get value for many of those players you listed. Again, using my above example, your s**t and p**s is more valuable to you than it is if you try to sell it or trade it.
Oh well look at that, you just admitted Benning acquired a laundry list of **** players.

Fictional Realism is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 10:47 AM
  #560
Luckylarry
Rookie User
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 130
vCash: 500
[QUOTE=orcatown;131229317]
Quote:
Originally Posted by F A N View Post
Umm... you're the one who made a list of "assets that were lost with no return." You even included AHL players who the Canucks didn't bring back. Just exactly what do you expect in return?


So because I included some AHL types you're saying it is not valid to list players lost for no return. Let's refine the list then. Are you saying all the following were worthless as assets from which you could expect no return.

Jason Garrison - still in League on a decent team
Gustav Forsling -expected to start in Chicago next year
Nicklas Jensen - great AHL season and first callup for the NYR
Emersen Etem - picked up on waivers by a good team
Tom Sestito - playing for Pittsburg
Adam Cracknell - got a new contract with Dallas
Yannick Weber - playing well enough on the Nashville defense
Zach Kassian - playing real well for Edmonton
Shaun Matthais - on the Winnipeg roster
Brad Richardson - up to the time he broke leg was having a good season in Arizona
Radim Vrbata - great year in Arizona (almost like we are their farm team)
Matt Barkkowski - picked up by Calgary for the playoffs
NIkita Tryamkin - looked like a top 4 for us next year
Dan Hamhuis - playing in Dallas
Frank Corrado - spent most of the year in Toronto

Can you name one thing we got back for these players

Beyond that, could make an argument that you might have gotten something for Higgins, Vey, Stanton and even Prust if they have moved them earlier. Also you can question the draft choices lost for nothing.


You could make the argument that at the time these players were dumped or lost they had little value. But that's just the point. You move assets before they become worthless or you keep them till you can raise their value. You don't render them useless and lose them for nothing. And that's what this management and these coaches did in Vancouver. We turned viable assets into non-assets or in the case of some very viable assets did not move them when we had the chance. And you can see this in the fact that many of them are on, or are close to being on, NHL rosters.

And what do I expect in return. Many of these players were worth at least a decent draft choice. Certainly Hamhuis, Richardson, Malthais, Forsling, Vrbata, Tryamkin, Corrado, Weber, and Garrison were worth something.
You make really valid points about JB's mismanaging assets during he first 3 years. Might I ask for your opinion on this questions?

Could we say that JB learned a lot in these three years (about managing assets and other aspects of his job) that make him a much improved GM? Considering this learning curve (admittedly hurting us) he becomes the best GM currently available to lead our rebuild?

Luckylarry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 10:50 AM
  #561
Verviticus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 11,346
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckylarry View Post
Could we say that JB learned a lot in these three years (about managing assets and other aspects of his job) that make him a much improved GM?
no

Quote:
Considering this learning curve (admittedly hurting us) he becomes the best GM currently available to lead our rebuild?
assuming we said yes, then sure, in the same way that i can drive 2000 km/h

Verviticus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 10:59 AM
  #562
Luckylarry
Rookie User
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 130
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verviticus View Post
no



assuming we said yes, then sure, in the same way that i can drive 2000 km/h
I do agree with you, that we need a new direction in leadership. I think we are stuck with JB though for a couple more years, so I'm trying (really hard) to see some positives. There's gotta be some, no?

Luckylarry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 11:14 AM
  #563
CanaFan
Registered User
 
CanaFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,546
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckylarry View Post
I do agree with you, that we need a new direction in leadership. I think we are stuck with JB though for a couple more years, so I'm trying (really hard) to see some positives. There's gotta be some, no?
The only positive that stands out right now is that someone with "lucky" in his username has joined our board a week before the draft lottery.

That's gotta be worth something, no?

CanaFan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 11:21 AM
  #564
Tim McCracken
Good loser = LOSER!
 
Tim McCracken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Jail
Posts: 1,372
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckylarry View Post

You make really valid points about JB's mismanaging assets during he first 3 years. Might I ask for your opinion on this questions?

Could we say that JB learned a lot in these three years (about managing assets and other aspects of his job) that make him a much improved GM? Considering this learning curve (admittedly hurting us) he becomes the best GM currently available to lead our rebuild?
Benning may have some value to the organization somewhere just not 100% in his current capacity. They need some senior level leadership fast and preferably under new ownership.

Gassing the coach was a good start, a year or so overdue though, but maybe a scenario of a reduced role for Benning, Linden leaving, an overseer of all things hockey (was hoping for Tallon, maybe a Krueger or even Lombardi) brought in, and Aquilini completely stepping away from the ongoing interference and meddling might allow for things to turn the corner sooner than later.

Tim McCracken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 12:01 PM
  #565
RandV
It's a wolf v2.0
 
RandV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 20,563
vCash: 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckylarry View Post

You make really valid points about JB's mismanaging assets during he first 3 years. Might I ask for your opinion on this questions?

Could we say that JB learned a lot in these three years (about managing assets and other aspects of his job) that make him a much improved GM? Considering this learning curve (admittedly hurting us) he becomes the best GM currently available to lead our rebuild?
A learning curve you'd expect from someone like Chayako or Dubas, young outsiders taking their first steps into NHL management. You hire a guy like Jim Benning because he's been in the business long enough in an upper management role that he should be able to hit the ground running. If at this point (there has been some learning) you need 3 years to figure out a job you've been assisting in for much longer, then you're just plain bad at it.

RandV is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 02:15 PM
  #566
Jyrki21
WHA Executive
 
Jyrki21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Ottawa, ON
Country: Sierra Leone
Posts: 7,382
vCash: 500
Sometimes the timing is just funny. Tryamkin leaves the day before I was set to post this one, drawn up some time in advance:


__________________
The Benning on Empty collection
Jyrki21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 03:51 PM
  #567
AwesomeInTheory
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,503
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckylarry View Post
I do agree with you, that we need a new direction in leadership. I think we are stuck with JB though for a couple more years, so I'm trying (really hard) to see some positives. There's gotta be some, no?
Our draft position is improved immensely with him at the helm.

This is offset by his inability to actually draft and obtain meaningful players.

Uhhh.

Ticket prices might go down? That could be a good thing if you live in Vancouver.

AwesomeInTheory is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 04:52 PM
  #568
CanaFan
Registered User
 
CanaFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,546
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by AwesomeInTheory View Post
Our draft position is improved immensely with him at the helm.

This is offset by his inability to actually draft and obtain meaningful players.

Uhhh.

Ticket prices might go down? That could be a good thing if you live in Vancouver.
Continuing on that theme since the Canucks have become practically unwatchable...

- I have more time in the evening to spend with my kids doing fun stuff besides explaining to my 8 year old the obvious merits of tanking for a high pick

- I drink less so I'll probably live an extra 5-10 years

- I've felt no urge to buy Canucks related merchandise so my bank account is healthier than ever



So in that sense the recent downturn has been a positive just about everywhere except on the ice for me!

CanaFan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 05:23 PM
  #569
Verviticus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 11,346
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckylarry View Post
I do agree with you, that we need a new direction in leadership. I think we are stuck with JB though for a couple more years, so I'm trying (really hard) to see some positives. There's gotta be some, no?
well, we're finally tanking under him

Verviticus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 05:32 PM
  #570
NoShowWilly
Registered User
 
NoShowWilly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: North Delta
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,766
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckylarry View Post
I do agree with you, that we need a new direction in leadership. I think we are stuck with JB though for a couple more years, so I'm trying (really hard) to see some positives. There's gotta be some, no?

what concerns me is the contracts right now. i don't think he has learned. the rumour was that Tryamkin was offered a high-end contract for a player in his situation.

NoShowWilly is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 05:40 PM
  #571
sunnyvale420
Doug The Thug Glatt
 
sunnyvale420's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Julian's Shed
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,335
vCash: 500
Good contracts:
Tanev
Baertschi
Granlund

Bad contracts:
Sutter
Eriksson
Dorsett
Sbisa
Hutton
Markstrom

Unknown:
Horvat
Gudbranson
Gaunce
Rodin

sunnyvale420 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 05:51 PM
  #572
NoShowWilly
Registered User
 
NoShowWilly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: North Delta
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,766
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunnyvale420 View Post
Good contracts:
Tanev
Baertschi
Granlund

Bad contracts:
Sutter
Eriksson
Dorsett
Sbisa
Hutton
Markstrom

Unknown:
Horvat
Gudbranson
Gaunce
Rodin
these are the two main concerns this summer.

they can't **** up gaunce's contract. think they can get him to take less in order to get a a higher AHL contract.

Rodin's will be around what it was this year if he is actually brought back

NoShowWilly is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 07:24 PM
  #573
Ronning On Empty
Moderator
Formerly BleachClean
 
Ronning On Empty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 20,088
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by F A N View Post
That's fine but that's not what you have been frequently doing on here. You have been blaming Benning and arguing that Virtanen wasn't a reasonable pick or that he couldn't have possibly been the BPA pick.

Virtanen was unlikely to be the best option at the time. If we both had picks ahead of him, how are we arguing that he was a "reasonable" pick? You're acting like each player is not unique onto themselves. Like grouping matters. It doesn't and never will.


Quote:
This is actually something you don't understand. These Independent Scouting Services need to come up with a list because they need to. But if you read the actual scouting reports, a lot of times it says nothing about why they ranked a player ahead of the other. That's because when you're talking about top picks there are "groupings." For example, Matthews and Laine were considered to have been ahead of their class. But while the independent scouting services have their own rankings, I don't know of any reputable ones that explain why they have Matthews over Laine. It's probably as simple as Matthews plays C. That's why your argument on "BPA" based on how independent scouting services ranked the players is so flawed when you ignore the fact that the consensus among NHL scouts is that say Juolevi, Tkachuk, and PLD belong in the same group of players. Teams may move a player in such a grouping up and down a list based on positional preference, upside, and or likelihood of reaching upside.

I don't have a clue as to what you are getting at here? Clarify.

Are you saying that you have never read a "reputable" scouting report that breaks down the rationale of this pick over that one? Really?

BPA and Grouping are not 'significant' terms when talking about the draft. The sooner people get this the better off the discussion will be. I hope the Tkachuk non-pick will cement that for a lot of people here. The Virtanen pick was the beginning, IMO.

Ronning On Empty is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 10:57 PM
  #574
GranvilleIsland
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
Country: Canada
Posts: 763
vCash: 500
This is a bit off topic but I wasn't sure where to post this.

I was looking at the list of Canucks scouts and noticed a new name, David Volek.

http://www.eliteprospects.com/staff.php?staff=2599

According to eliteprospects he was a pro scout for Calgary and we hired him this season as an amateur scout. Does anyone have any info on which region(s) he scouts?

GranvilleIsland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 10:58 PM
  #575
GranvilleIsland
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
Country: Canada
Posts: 763
vCash: 500
Also looks like a Benning connection (from his Buffalo days).

GranvilleIsland is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:20 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2017 All Rights Reserved.