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Marc Bergevin - The Crystal Ball Edition

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Old
04-21-2017, 06:57 AM
  #651
NotProkofievian
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
That Shawful trade at the draft and subsequent Shawful extension will be one of the top three mistakes that defines the Bergevin era.

Along with hiring Michel Therrien and trading PK Subban
It truly was Shawful. Terrible on paper at the time. Worse in hindsight with guys like Abramov and DahlÚn scoring like mad who were available at those picks.

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04-21-2017, 07:09 AM
  #652
Frank Drebin
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
What amazes me is the hold Bergevin has gotten on some fans. They give him the benefit of the doubt and trust him almost unconditionally as if he's some seasoned winning GM.

The guy came in as a rookie and it's clear he's just improvising every year.
I'm guilty of it. He's made numerous small trades which have mostly worked out for him. He has made some shrewd moves without sacrificing the future. But ultimately we have a team that still can't score, and the blame has to be on him.

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04-21-2017, 07:11 AM
  #653
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Originally Posted by Frank Drebin View Post
I'm guilty of it. He's made numerous small trades which have mostly worked out for him. He has made some shrewd moves without sacrificing the future. But ultimately we have a team that still can't score, and the blame has to be on him.
This is going to read like a ****** comment, but it's not meant as one: it's nice to see you come around.

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04-21-2017, 07:18 AM
  #654
Frank Drebin
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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
This is going to read like a ****** comment, but it's not meant as one: it's nice to see you come around.
No offense taken. I'm truly disappointed in this years team. I was expecting big things. Weber is great, but not an improvement over Subban.

Even if we somehow get past NYR this team is not going anywhere. The offense is just brutal. We're missing 3 top 6 players. What the hell happened to Chucky.

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04-21-2017, 07:21 AM
  #655
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I love Radulov but he saved MB's this year.

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Old
04-21-2017, 07:29 AM
  #656
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Originally Posted by Frank Drebin View Post
No offense taken. I'm truly disappointed in this years team. I was expecting big things. Weber is great, but not an improvement over Subban.

Even if we somehow get past NYR this team is not going anywhere. The offense is just brutal. We're missing 3 top 6 players. What the hell happened to Chucky.
I've come around on Weber but he wasn't an addition to a position of weakness, just a change to a position of strength.

Like you said there were some good things about this year but it's becoming obvious that we're still short where we've always been short: scoring and center. It's honestly getting ****ing old.

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Old
04-21-2017, 07:38 AM
  #657
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Originally Posted by TheBuriedHab View Post
Not trying to make excuses but it's become near impossible to trade for legitimate top 6 help over the past year. Teams just don't really want do trade away offense anymore. The only top 6ish forwards traded over the past year were the likes of Drew Stafford, Jannik Hansen, Vanek, Teravainen+ cap dump Bickell and the 1 for 1 of Brassard for Zibenjad. And the Ufa pool this year is weak as hell plus we have the best forward set to be Ufa in Radulov who could get a huge payday as hes going to be very coveted. Honestly good luck Bergevin you are screwed.
I agree, its very difficult to get any kind of help thru trade. Drafting and development are so important and we haven't been great on either of those fronts. I just pray some of these first rounder defensemen start to pan out.

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04-21-2017, 07:48 AM
  #658
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Originally Posted by TheBuriedHab View Post
Not trying to make excuses but it's become near impossible to trade for legitimate top 6 help over the past year. Teams just don't really want do trade away offense anymore. The only top 6ish forwards traded over the past year were the likes of Drew Stafford, Jannik Hansen, Vanek, Teravainen+ cap dump Bickell and the 1 for 1 of Brassard for Zibenjad. And the Ufa pool this year is weak as hell plus we have the best forward set to be Ufa in Radulov who could get a huge payday as hes going to be very coveted. Honestly good luck Bergevin you are screwed.
Like someone else said, he should have looked for players earlier than this year. Funny enough, I was thinking about the Predators last night and their moves in the past few years:

- Seth Jones for Ryan Johansen
Wouldn't that be a trade that gives them a much needed #1 Center?

- Shea Weber for PK Subban
They now have a D corps that is 27 yo in average and the oldest guy is Matt Irwin at 29 on the third pairing

- Hornqvist + Spaling for James Neal
Neal has slowed down a lot but he was a legit top 6 scorer at the time while the other two guys are more Top 9

- the infamous Forsberg trade

And all these were made while Bergevin was around!? They also have a bunch of kids that were drafted by that team since 2012 (Arvidsson, Aberg, Sissons, Fiala).

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04-21-2017, 07:48 AM
  #659
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Originally Posted by Frank Drebin View Post
No offense taken. I'm truly disappointed in this years team. I was expecting big things. Weber is great, but not an improvement over Subban.

Even if we somehow get past NYR this team is not going anywhere. The offense is just brutal. We're missing 3 top 6 players. What the hell happened to Chucky.
A lot of people made (some still do) the mistake of looking at the 11-12 season of the Habs and comparing it to the 12-13 edition thinking Bergevin was responsible for the massive positive turn around.
And yes, he did rid the team of some crap. But when you take a step back and take an objective look at it, most of what he did was going to be done by anybody coming in.
Buying out Gomez and Kaberle, extending Price and Patches, drafting Galch, letting crap go, whoever was coming in would have done that. Heck, 99% of the posters here would have done it.

So really, I use the 12-13 season as a standard to measure our improvement, otherwise you can call almost any season as a step up from that year. Even last year, despite out terribleness, would still be considered better than 11-12.
When looking at 12-13, we haven't improved anywhere, and that's unacceptable.

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04-21-2017, 08:09 AM
  #660
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Half a decade under Bergevin showed how overrated character is.

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04-21-2017, 08:09 AM
  #661
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Is Yannick Weber effective in Nashville? Would he work on our third pairing?

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04-21-2017, 08:09 AM
  #662
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Originally Posted by ArtPeur View Post
Like someone else said, he should have looked for players earlier than this year. Funny enough, I was thinking about the Predators last night and their moves in the past few years:

- Seth Jones for Ryan Johansen
Wouldn't that be a trade that gives them a much needed #1 Center?

- Shea Weber for PK Subban
They now have a D corps that is 27 yo in average and the oldest guy is Matt Irwin at 29 on the third pairing

- Hornqvist + Spaling for James Neal
Neal has slowed down a lot but he was a legit top 6 scorer at the time while the other two guys are more Top 9

- the infamous Forsberg trade

And all these were made while Bergevin was around!? They also have a bunch of kids that were drafted by that team since 2012 (Arvidsson, Aberg, Sissons, Fiala).
Yes, Bergevin should have been in on Forsberg.

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Old
04-21-2017, 08:16 AM
  #663
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Originally Posted by Seb View Post
Half a decade under Bergevin showed how overrated character is.
What character?

This team folded like... something that folds easily... yeah this team folded like starched bed sheets after Price went down last year. Gutless management, gutless coaching, gutless performances from everyone except PK Subban who tried to do too much... and was subsequently (and retroactively) late for 18 practices, fought all his teammates, extremely selfish, a bad role model, and therefore HAD to be run out of town.

But Therrien - a man of character, a man you need in your foxhole. He had to stay.

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Old
04-21-2017, 08:31 AM
  #664
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
What character?

This team folded like... something that folds easily... yeah this team folded like starched bed sheets after Price went down last year. Gutless management, gutless coaching, gutless performances from everyone except PK Subban who tried to do too much... and was subsequently (and retroactively) late for 18 practices, fought all his teammates, extremely selfish, a bad role model, and therefore HAD to be run out of town.

But Therrien - a man of character, a man you need in your foxhole. He had to stay.
for like...50 more games. It was super important that that happened because now we have Julien. It was all in the plan, see? There's no way he could've axed Therrien after the worst collapse since before the Rocket first laced 'em up for us and made a bold move to hire, say, Jukka Jalonen after his double gold performance (only the second ever since Babcock). Nope, Bergevin works in mysterious ways and it's best not to question them.

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04-21-2017, 08:42 AM
  #665
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MB has tried to bring the Chicago philospohy to the Habs but he has failed miserably. The Habs never had players like Toews and Kane to build a winning team. Instead he brought washed out Hawks players except Danault which he thought would magically turn this team into a contending team... He has not addressed the number one center position which he could of done with some bold trade. Instead he trades lower end draft picks for bottom 9 players... This team apparently has a lot of character but it has not been seen in the playoffs whatsoever. When Danualt is playing first line center after being an AHLer with the Hawks you know that we are in huge trouble. No way we could win with our centers.

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04-21-2017, 08:43 AM
  #666
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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
for like...50 more games. It was super important that that happened because now we have Julien. It was all in the plan, see? There's no way he could've axed Therrien after the worst collapse since before the Rocket first laced 'em up for us and made a bold move to hire, say, Jukka Jalonen after his double gold performance (only the second ever since Babcock). Nope, Bergevin works in mysterious ways and it's best not to question them.
That's actually not quite right. Therrien should have been fired long before the 2017 or 2016 season.

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04-21-2017, 09:00 AM
  #667
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I am officially jumping on the #FireBergevin bandwagon. 5 years in job and it is essential the same type of team from the Gainey/Gauthier era.

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04-21-2017, 09:04 AM
  #668
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They have so many unproven pieces. I don't understand how Sylvain Lefebvre still has a job? He hasn't developed anything but a losing mentality.

As for the main club it starts with re-signing Radulov. If he bolts for another team or the KHL, Bergevin has to try and get 4 Top 6 pieces. It just won't happen. And he has to try and sign Price once July 1st rolls around. If he can't get him signed by the end of August?? he will have to consider trading him to get any value for him. And it won't be anywhere near fair value. If he holds onto him until the trade deadline he will be lucky to get a 1st rd pick and a prospect for him.

Plekanec, Emelin and Markov also will have to be dealt with. This team screams rebuild. I don't want Bergevin or Lefebvre looking after any of it.

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04-21-2017, 09:05 AM
  #669
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A couple points I'd be intersted in getting thoughts on:

1) As far as we know, the Habs are nursing no significant injuries right now. This is the only time in my life that I can recall a healthy Habs team in the playoffs. Every other year it seems, I'd be thinking "if only the Habs were healthy". For example, back during the 2014 playoffs, the Habs lost to the Rangers because they couldn't score, most posters assumed that the Habs would have made the finals with a healthy Price (lol).

2) Alex Galchenyuk is being ineffective right now. Some are speculating that he's nursing an injury we don't know about, and that management is choosing to have a 50% Galchenyuk on the third line rather than Michael McCarron or Torrey Mitchell, that may be.

Either way management has a tough decision to make. They can speak to him frankly and commit to playing him at centre from game 1, or they can package him in a trade with the value he has now: effective second line winger with residual draft pedigree.

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04-21-2017, 09:12 AM
  #670
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Originally Posted by habshound247 View Post
They have so many unproven pieces. I don't understand how Sylvain Lefebvre still has a job? He hasn't developed anything but a losing mentality.

As for the main club it starts with re-signing Radulov. If he bolts for another team or the KHL, Bergevin has to try and get 4 Top 6 pieces. It just won't happen. And he has to try and sign Price once July 1st rolls around. If he can't get him signed by the end of August?? he will have to consider trading him to get any value for him. And it won't be anywhere near fair value. If he holds onto him until the trade deadline he will be lucky to get a 1st rd pick and a prospect for him.

Plekanec, Emelin and Markov also will have to be dealt with. This team screams rebuild. I don't want Bergevin or Lefebvre looking after any of it.
This is this year's free agent class, it's exceptionally weak and the best player under 35 available is ... Alexander Radulov.
http://stats.nhlnumbers.com/free_agents

The most desirable free agent available is Dimitry Kulikov, he would improve our team but we already spend a lot of money on defense + goaltending.

Shipachev, Dadonov are two other options.

The other options are offer sheets to RFAs, or trades. For example, they might try offering five years of 1st round draft picks to the Islanders for John Tavares. The Islanders were stupid this year: They held on to John Tavares because they wanted a deep playoff run, lol good job. They should have traded him while he still had tremendous value.

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04-21-2017, 09:20 AM
  #671
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Bergevin does deserve the criticism he gets and I don't think Bergevin is a GM with a vision to build a winning team. But when will the focus turn on Molson and Co? The problem is that they will never allow a proper rebuild, and that is exactly what this team needs if they ever want to see a cup again. Rearranging the chairs to just try and make the PO's is not a recipe for successes.

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04-21-2017, 09:24 AM
  #672
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Originally Posted by Justin11 View Post
Bergevin does deserve the criticism he gets and I don't think Bergevin is a GM with a vision to build a winning team. But when will the focus turn on Molson and Co? The problem is that they will never allow a proper rebuild, and that is exactly what this team needs if they ever want to see a cup again. Rearranging the chairs to just try and make the PO's is not a recipe for successes.
Ownership won't have much of a choice if Price walks.

Honestly the team should fire Bergevin and put in a temp GM to take the heat of tearing the team apart. Trade Price, Pacioretty, Weber, let Markov walk, this team will be a Top 3 pick contender.

Instead I got a feeling Molson will give Bergevin one last chance and he will spend it on trading for Toews or Giroux.

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04-21-2017, 09:25 AM
  #673
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin11 View Post
Bergevin does deserve the criticism he gets and I don't think Bergevin is a GM with a vision to build a winning team. But when will the focus turn on Molson and Co? The problem is that they will never allow a proper rebuild, and that is exactly what this team needs if they ever want to see a cup again. Rearranging the chairs to just try and make the PO's is not a recipe for successes.
Its just not feasible in any market, let alone Montreal to rebuild on the heels of a 100+point season with key players (Price, Weber, Pacioretty) in key positions.

Look how long it took the Leafs to concede to a full rebuild, and that was with one playoff appearance in a decade!

Price has to go. We won't be able to compete with him being paid what he's worth and we won't be bad enough to make a rebuild feasible with him around.

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04-21-2017, 09:30 AM
  #674
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Originally Posted by Frank Drebin View Post
Its just not feasible in any market, let alone Montreal to rebuild on the heels of a 100+point season with key players (Price, Weber, Pacioretty) in key positions.

Look how long it took the Leafs to concede to a full rebuild, and that was with one playoff appearance in a decade!

Price has to go. We won't be able to compete with him being paid what he's worth and we won't be bad enough to make a rebuild feasible with him around.
We should've traded Price about 2 years ago. People were laughing at me when I was saying Talbot and Hall or Eberle for Price.

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04-21-2017, 09:40 AM
  #675
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Originally Posted by Justin11 View Post
Bergevin does deserve the criticism he gets and I don't think Bergevin is a GM with a vision to build a winning team. But when will the focus turn on Molson and Co? The problem is that they will never allow a proper rebuild, and that is exactly what this team needs if they ever want to see a cup again. Rearranging the chairs to just try and make the PO's is not a recipe for successes.
When Bergevin was hired Molson had to answer questions regarding what Bergevin was permitted to do in building the Montreal Canadiens into a stanley cup contender. We had significant questions about what to do with Scott Gomez and Tomas Kaberle and their albatross contracts. Molson's response was that Bergevin had absolute free reign to make whatever moves he deemed necessary to build the future of the club. Bergevin absolutely had the political capital to do a full rebuild. What he lacked was the guts or the brains or both.

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