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Old
04-21-2017, 09:14 AM
  #1
JKinCLE
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Cbj - col

I never make proposals, let alone ones I would consider ridiculous. While I know Mackinnon is "untouchable" as stated by the GM, every player has a price. Jackets showed their glaring weakness is top level talent down the middle. So I propose, for the sake of discussion, since a poster brought it up on the CBJ boards and I can't get the thought out of my head:


Mackinnon


Wennberg
Murray
2017 1st


While some may see it as an overpayment from the CBJ side considering its possible Wennberg ends up better or on the same level (he did have more points this year). I'm hoping Dubois can come play C for the Jackets in the near future, and Dubi can hold over the 2C spot for another year or 2 before the wheels really fall off.

The Avs do this for the simple fact they get a replacement for Mackinnon, a young Dman who has as big of an upside as he does risk who will ultimately probably end up as a #3 at worst, and a draft pick in the late teens/early 20s. All players involved are very young so it fits both teams plans going forward, I think...

Just looking for thoughts, its a slow Friday at work, the Jackets were eliminated so...

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Old
04-21-2017, 09:18 AM
  #2
strictlyrandy
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I'd hesitate to do that for Duchene. Absolutely not for MacKinnon.

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Old
04-21-2017, 09:25 AM
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JKinCLE View Post
I never make proposals, let alone ones I would consider ridiculous. While I know Mackinnon is "untouchable" as stated by the GM, every player has a price. Jackets showed their glaring weakness is top level talent down the middle. So I propose, for the sake of discussion, since a poster brought it up on the CBJ boards and I can't get the thought out of my head:


Mackinnon


Wennberg
Murray
2017 1st


While some may see it as an overpayment from the CBJ side considering its possible Wennberg ends up better or on the same level (he did have more points this year). I'm hoping Dubois can come play C for the Jackets in the near future, and Dubi can hold over the 2C spot for another year or 2 before the wheels really fall off.

The Avs do this for the simple fact they get a replacement for Mackinnon, a young Dman who has as big of an upside as he does risk who will ultimately probably end up as a #3 at worst, and a draft pick in the late teens/early 20s. All players involved are very young so it fits both teams plans going forward, I think...

Just looking for thoughts, its a slow Friday at work, the Jackets were eliminated so...
"Every player has a price". Yeah but this certainly wouldn't be it for Nathan Mackinnon. This wouldn't even address the Avs needs enough to trade Duchene for that package. Not saying the value isn't enough to get Duchene but it isn't what the Avs would be looking for.

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Old
04-21-2017, 09:26 AM
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If you want someone that's untouchable, you're going to have to give someone you'd consider untouchable.

But it wouldn't surprise me if Duchene was traded to Columbus and Murray was part of the package coming back.

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Old
04-21-2017, 09:28 AM
  #5
JKinCLE
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Originally Posted by strictlyrandy View Post
I'd hesitate to do that for Duchene. Absolutely not for MacKinnon.
I hope you will be already sitting down when you discover the actual return for Duchene when he gets moved. 99 out of 100 (you being the only one) would take that offer for Duchene and run

I understand not wanting to move Mackinnon, but value-wise I don't think its too far off. Not looking to start a flame war over it. Just general discussion.

Do Avs fans see a lot more room for growth by Mackinnon? I know he's only 21.

The only ones I would call untouchable from the CBJ is Werenski and Jones, and it sounds like thats what it would take. If so, I'd shake your hands and wish the Avs the best of luck with sincerity and move on.

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Old
04-21-2017, 09:32 AM
  #6
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Originally Posted by JKinCLE View Post
I hope you will be already sitting down when you discover the actual return for Duchene when he gets moved. 99 out of 100 (you being the only one) would take that offer for Duchene and run

I understand not wanting to move Mackinnon, but value-wise I don't think its too far off. Not looking to start a flame war over it. Just general discussion.

Do Avs fans see a lot more room for growth by Mackinnon? I know he's only 21.
That's quite incorrect. Again, not that the "value" isn't enough. But Colorado needs to address that top pairing D issue if they're trading Duchene. An injury prone Murray isn't that. The best part of that deal coming back is Wennberg but that doesn't make sense from Colorado's side. The most important part of any deal coming back id a defenseman.

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Old
04-21-2017, 09:41 AM
  #7
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Originally Posted by Cousin Eddie View Post
That's quite incorrect. Again, not that the "value" isn't enough. But Colorado needs to address that top pairing D issue if they're trading Duchene. An injury prone Murray isn't that. The best part of that deal coming back is Wennberg but that doesn't make sense from Colorado's side. The most important part of any deal coming back id a defenseman.
Thats fair. Was thinking just maybe Wennberg slotting into Mackinnons spot would allow them to be feel comfortable adding Murray on the backend if they can't get a legit #1D via trade in addition to a 1st rounder. Considering there wouldn't be a gaping hole down the middle if they moved Mackinnon.

Assuming a trade was going to go down for Duchene, whats a realistic offer from your guys' point of view? Or are you saying that package initially proposed doesn't necessarily get Duchene even?

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Old
04-21-2017, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by JKinCLE View Post
Thats fair. Was thinking just maybe Wennberg slotting into Mackinnons spot would allow them to be feel comfortable adding Murray on the backend if they can't get a legit #1D via trade in addition to a 1st rounder. Considering there wouldn't be a gaping hole down the middle if they moved Mackinnon.

Assuming a trade was going to go down for Duchene, whats a realistic offer from your guys' point of view? Or are you saying that package initially proposed doesn't necessarily get Duchene even?
I think their point is that they want a top-pairing defenseman back one way or the other, and they don't think Murray is one. Which would be... well, frankly, identical to all the other discussions we've had with them in the past, in which we think he's top-pairing capable and they don't and we get nowhere beyond that.

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Old
04-21-2017, 09:57 AM
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Mackinnon, Rantanen, and Jost are untouchable. Words straight from the lips of Sakic.

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Old
04-21-2017, 09:59 AM
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Lol, so none of Columbus' elite talent for our single most elite talent. Right on bud.

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Old
04-21-2017, 09:59 AM
  #11
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Want Mackinnon? The conversation starts and ends with Werenski or Jones. No packaged deals of lesser pieces.

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Old
04-21-2017, 10:21 AM
  #12
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Originally Posted by HockeyHead21 View Post
Want Mackinnon? The conversation starts and ends with Werenski or Jones. No packaged deals of lesser pieces.
That is fair and exactly what I'd ask for if I was in your shoes. Obviously not gonna happen from either side.

The deal to be made between these two squads is Duchene for Murray+, if there is a deal to be made at all.

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Old
04-21-2017, 10:21 AM
  #13
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Fair enough. Good luck to the Avs. Always have been a low key Avs fan since the Monsters affiliated with them for years. Hopefully Mackinnon will put it together and break the 60pt mark again and get em on the right track. I was by no means trying to rip them off in the proposal, and still genuinely feel like the value is close, but understand absolutely requiring a potential #1 D in return.

I will be curious after another year if you'd change your tune if Wennberg has another year of improvement and Murray has a solid healthy year.

Thanks to those who put thought into replies.

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Old
04-21-2017, 10:29 AM
  #14
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Mackinnon is no trade for cbj unless Seth Jones +

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Old
04-21-2017, 10:30 AM
  #15
HockeyHead21
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Originally Posted by Toe Pick View Post
That is fair and exactly what I'd ask for if I was in your shoes. Obviously not gonna happen from either side.

The deal to be made between these two squads is Duchene for Murray+, if there is a deal to be made at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JKinCLE View Post
Fair enough. Good luck to the Avs. Always have been a low key Avs fan since the Monsters affiliated with them for years. Hopefully Mackinnon will put it together and break the 60pt mark again and get em on the right track. I was by no means trying to rip them off in the proposal, and still genuinely feel like the value is close, but understand absolutely requiring a potential #1 D in return.

I will be curious after another year if you'd change your tune if Wennberg has another year of improvement and Murray has a solid healthy year.

Thanks to those who put thought into replies.
You guys have a good team. Hopefully PLD turns out to be that center you're looking for. As a fan base, moving our top two centers would require a #1 D coming back. Sakic might feel different and is willing to take a combination of lesser pieces but I sure hope not.

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Old
04-21-2017, 10:37 AM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JKinCLE View Post
I never make proposals, let alone ones I would consider ridiculous. While I know Mackinnon is "untouchable" as stated by the GM, every player has a price. Jackets showed their glaring weakness is top level talent down the middle. So I propose, for the sake of discussion, since a poster brought it up on the CBJ boards and I can't get the thought out of my head:


Mackinnon


Wennberg
Murray
2017 1st


While some may see it as an overpayment from the CBJ side considering its possible Wennberg ends up better or on the same level (he did have more points this year). I'm hoping Dubois can come play C for the Jackets in the near future, and Dubi can hold over the 2C spot for another year or 2 before the wheels really fall off.

The Avs do this for the simple fact they get a replacement for Mackinnon, a young Dman who has as big of an upside as he does risk who will ultimately probably end up as a #3 at worst, and a draft pick in the late teens/early 20s. All players involved are very young so it fits both teams plans going forward, I think...

Just looking for thoughts, its a slow Friday at work, the Jackets were eliminated so...
The problem with the Jackets trading for MacKinnon is I doubt the Avs would take two dimes and a nickle for a quarter. I doubt they would take "three dimes."

The Jackets wouldn't want to trade an untouchable for him. I would expect any MacKinnon deal would have to include either Jones or Werenski and that just opens a huge hole Columbus can't easily fill.

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Old
04-21-2017, 10:39 AM
  #17
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Murray is not that far from UFA status now and that would be an issue in addition to his significant injury history.

A further issue for Murray, his possession metric stats were horrible this season, although he did receive a large number of defensive zone starts. But Murray's Corsi and Fenwick numbers in relation this his team's statistical possession performance are alarming IMO.

On another note, it should be readily apparent that the Avs are not going to trade MacKinnon, particularly for less than a price that the opposing team would be upset about. This should not be that difficult of a concept for posters on this board to grasp.

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Old
04-21-2017, 10:46 AM
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MacKinnon isn't available, but if he was....what did you get for Johansen? Good, there's your answer.

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Old
04-21-2017, 11:00 AM
  #19
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MacKinnon isn't available, but if he was....what did you get for Johansen? Good, there's your answer.

Johasen came off a 33g, 63 pt season and then a 71pt season. Mackinnon is coming off a couple of 50pt campaigns. Jones wasn't yet a #1D, he had been playing sheltered 3rd pairing minutes until he came to the Jackets.

Chill. It's clear you require a #1D. Wouldn't trade Jones or Werenski for Mackinnon.

Can we get a mod to close this, the question has been answered.


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Old
04-21-2017, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by HockeyHead21 View Post
Want Mackinnon? The conversation starts and ends with Werenski or Jones. No packaged deals of lesser pieces.
Starts with? More like you'd be adding, Werenski especially.

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Old
04-21-2017, 11:27 AM
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Starts with? More like you'd be adding, Werenski especially.
Whatever helps you sleep at night but MacK wouldn't be moved with or without a plus if Werenski or Jones isn't coming back.

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Old
04-21-2017, 11:30 AM
  #22
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Columbus is (or should be) committed to not moving Werenski or Jones.

Colorado is (or should be) committed to not moving Mackinnon.

I think something around Duchene for a defenseman who isn't Jones or Werenski plus one of the Jackets top-6 forwards should be a viable deal. Add picks/players to either side in order to even out value, salary, cap, etc. There is also the possibility that someone could offer something better.

Columbus got extremely lucky when it was able to pull off Johansen for Jones. Young players like that don't come along often at all. The closest thing I can see at the moment is if Hanifin is actually available and manages to develop into a good #1 defenseman. Beyond that, I don't see any options for a 1-for-1 center for young #1 D trade.


Last edited by Crede777: 04-21-2017 at 11:37 AM.
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Old
04-21-2017, 12:05 PM
  #23
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I'd want PLD and Murray for Duchene, but I'm guessing that won't be a productive conversation here. How about:

Murray-Milano-1st

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04-21-2017, 12:10 PM
  #24
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I'd want PLD and Murray for Duchene, but I'm guessing that won't be a productive conversation here. How about:

Murray-Milano-1st
It's unclear how the organization views PLD. It's obviously different than the fans, though.

I think Murray + Milano + 1st would be a disappointing return for Colorado. The best move IMHO would be to trade Duchene either for a player like Hanifin + or for a young and established 2nd pairing guy with upside (or question marks) plus a top-6 forward plus a pick or prospect.

From a CBJ perspective, I would be content with Ryan Murray in the 1st or 2nd pairing left side provided he can play consistently rather than being injured. It's his injuries and the fact that Johnson and Savard have established chemistry which make Murray expendable IMO.

The harder ask for Colorado would be David Savard. Savard is a right hander and is IMHO the 3rd best defenseman right now on the Jackets. That said, Jackets have him and Jones as righties. They have 5 or 6 left handed guys (and so Murray plays on his wrong side).

Regardless of their coaching problems, I think the success of a Duchene (or Landeskog) trade will come down to Colorado's scouting. If they can identify a young defenseman who they think can eventually be a #1 but isn't close yet and so is available as part of a package, then that's the best outcome. The alternate approach would be making a safe pick for a 2nd pairing guy ++. That said, for all we know, Sakic's stance could be "Jones or Werenski or neither Mackinnon nor Duchene are available." In that case, I doubt Colorado ends up making a move and addressing its need for defense.


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Old
04-21-2017, 12:11 PM
  #25
strictlyrandy
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Originally Posted by JKinCLE View Post
I hope you will be already sitting down when you discover the actual return for Duchene when he gets moved. 99 out of 100 (you being the only one) would take that offer for Duchene and run

I understand not wanting to move Mackinnon, but value-wise I don't think its too far off. Not looking to start a flame war over it. Just general discussion.

Do Avs fans see a lot more room for growth by Mackinnon? I know he's only 21.

The only ones I would call untouchable from the CBJ is Werenski and Jones, and it sounds like thats what it would take. If so, I'd shake your hands and wish the Avs the best of luck with sincerity and move on.
It's pretty clear that doesn't fill an actual need for the Avs. Duchene will most likely be moved for a guy like Hanifin. Someone that fills a need.

I didn't say it was awful value wise. I said I'd hesitate to do that for Duchene. It singly doesn't meet needs for Colorado.

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