HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie
Notices

The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Ray Bourque-Best D ever

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-21-2017, 08:10 AM
  #1
YippieKaey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Stockholm Sweden
Country: Sweden
Posts: 79
vCash: 500
Ray Bourque-Best D ever

So yeah, this has probably been discussed before but if in retrospect i were to choose between the two(Bourque and Orr) to build a team around i would rather definitively choose Bourque due to 20 years of stellar play as opposed to 8-9 of generational play. Coupling that with Bourques notoriously easy contract negotations and general classiness. Shouldn't that qualify him as the best D ever? Or at least above Orr looking at career value? I realize that Orr peaked well above him but peak isn't everything and Ray had a pretty stellar peak aswell. Im just trying to look at these things from a different angle. What are you guys's thoughts?

YippieKaey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 08:39 AM
  #2
the edler
Valeri Bure fan
 
the edler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 4,836
vCash: 500
I don't think classiness has anything to do with how good of a hockey player you are.

Unless you refer to players who built a big amount of their games around cheapshots and injuring other teams players such as Messier, Chelios and B. Clarke. But that's not really not being classy, per se, that's more like being a cheater. I don't think Orr was like that.

the edler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 08:40 AM
  #3
YippieKaey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Stockholm Sweden
Country: Sweden
Posts: 79
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by the edler View Post
I don't think classiness has anything to do with how good of a hockey player you are.

Unless you refer to players who built a big amount of their games around cheapshots and injuring other teams players such as Messier, Chelios and B. Clarke. But that's not really not being classy, per se, that's more like being a cheater. I don't think Orr was like that.
I agree, but it could matter from a franchise-building viewpoint, don't you think?

YippieKaey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 08:41 AM
  #4
the edler
Valeri Bure fan
 
the edler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 4,836
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by YippieKaey View Post
I agree, but it could matter from a franchise-building viewpoint, don't you think?
Because it's easier to build a strong team around such a player?

the edler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 08:49 AM
  #5
YippieKaey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Stockholm Sweden
Country: Sweden
Posts: 79
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by the edler View Post
Because it's easier to build a strong team around such a player?
Yes, and no holdouts to sour the locker room mood and keep the salary expenses down.

YippieKaey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 09:01 AM
  #6
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Hôlle
Posts: 34,988
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by YippieKaey View Post
Yes, and no holdouts to sour the locker room mood and keep the salary expenses down.
Well, if Orr hadn't held out, and I'm not quite sure the word "holdout" is appropriate, Bourque might have held out himself...

MXD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 09:01 AM
  #7
Plural
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 30,241
vCash: 50
Was Orr not classy?

Plural is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 09:01 AM
  #8
Evilo
Registered User
 
Evilo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: France
Country: France
Posts: 36,858
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by YippieKaey View Post
So yeah, this has probably been discussed before but if in retrospect i were to choose between the two(Bourque and Orr) to build a team around i would rather definitively choose Bourque due to 20 years of stellar play as opposed to 8-9 of generational play. Coupling that with Bourques notoriously easy contract negotations and general classiness. Shouldn't that qualify him as the best D ever? Or at least above Orr looking at career value? I realize that Orr peaked well above him but peak isn't everything and Ray had a pretty stellar peak aswell. Im just trying to look at these things from a different angle. What are you guys's thoughts?
How many cups did Bourque bring?

Evilo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 09:02 AM
  #9
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Hôlle
Posts: 34,988
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plural View Post
Was Orr not classy?
Well, he was represented by Alan Eagleson...

MXD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 09:35 AM
  #10
NickyFotiu
NYR 2017 Cup Champs!
 
NickyFotiu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 8,804
vCash: 500
The two best D-men ever to play this game but it is always Orr #1 with Ray #2 in my opinion.

NickyFotiu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 09:43 AM
  #11
Gee Wally
Global Moderator
True Grit
 
Gee Wally's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Grumpville USA
Country: United States
Posts: 48,109
vCash: 500
Awards:
Quote:
Originally Posted by YippieKaey View Post
So yeah, this has probably been discussed before but if in retrospect i were to choose between the two(Bourque and Orr) to build a team around i would rather definitively choose Bourque due to 20 years of stellar play as opposed to 8-9 of generational play. Coupling that with Bourques notoriously easy contract negotations and general classiness. Shouldn't that qualify him as the best D ever? Or at least above Orr looking at career value? I realize that Orr peaked well above him but peak isn't everything and Ray had a pretty stellar peak aswell. Im just trying to look at these things from a different angle. What are you guys's thoughts?
I watched every game of both their careers.

Orr was better. Orr was the best D man ever. At least from what Ive seen in over 50 years.

Classiness? That doesn't enter the picture.

Orr was screwed by Eagleson - look it up. Sinden was too stubborn to circumvent the agent too.

Bourque? he went to arbitration with the Bruins. So not all wine and roses there either.

__________________



You tell 'em I'M coming...

and Hell's coming with me, you hear?! ... Hell's coming with me!
Gee Wally is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 09:45 AM
  #12
tarheelhockey
Global Moderator
 
tarheelhockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Triangle
Country: United States
Posts: 53,264
vCash: 1020
Bourque is in a weird position because he's obviously not the "best" prime defenseman ever (that goes to Orr rather easily) and he obviously didn't have the "best" full career (that would probably go to either Harvey or Lidstrom). But if you look at everything together, he has an intriguing argument as the best combination of both.

From a franchise building standpoint, sure, there's a rationale for taking Bourque over Orr. He's going to give you twice as much tenure while still being the (depending on who you ask) 2nd-5th best defenseman of all time. But I don't think you pass on Orr for any reason. Even with the injuries he's still going to give you a decade of being by far the best player in the NHL.

tarheelhockey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 09:49 AM
  #13
Admiral Awesome
Registered User
 
Admiral Awesome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 107
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo View Post
How many cups did Bourque bring?
Invalid criteria for judging an individual player

OT: As much as I love me some Bourque, the only answer here is Orr; his peak was simply the best we've ever seen from anyone not named Gretzky.

Admiral Awesome is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 09:54 AM
  #14
Admiral Awesome
Registered User
 
Admiral Awesome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 107
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
he obviously didn't have the "best" full career (that would probably go to either Harvey or Lidstrom).
Don't know about Harvey but I'd say Bourque had a much better overall career than Lidstrom.

Admiral Awesome is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 09:57 AM
  #15
tarheelhockey
Global Moderator
 
tarheelhockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Triangle
Country: United States
Posts: 53,264
vCash: 1020
Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral Awesome View Post
Don't know about Harvey but I'd say Bourque had a much better overall career than Lidstrom.
I agree, but the subtext here is the extensive record of discussions on here about trophy counts, etc. Hence the quote marks.

tarheelhockey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 10:01 AM
  #16
quoipourquoi
Moderator
Goaltender
 
quoipourquoi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Hockeytown, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 6,563
vCash: 500
Did too many players from the 1970s have 20-year careers on top? There's no doubt that Orr's career is brief and that he may be given breaks that others with similarly short careers are not (Dryden), but I do feel we got enough of him to say he is the best.

Nothing wrong with the angle by which you're approaching it. If given the choice between the two for a franchise, I would at least have to scribble down a pros and cons list.

quoipourquoi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 10:12 AM
  #17
Evilo
Registered User
 
Evilo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: France
Country: France
Posts: 36,858
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral Awesome View Post
Invalid criteria for judging an individual player
But classiness is.....

Evilo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 10:26 AM
  #18
danincanada
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,956
vCash: 500
In my opinion Orr did enough in the time he did play to get this title. The level of domination was just so high and he may not have even hit his peak as a defenseman yet when his career was cut short.

If he starts his career at the same time as Bourque, or later, does medical technology extend his career? Knee operations have come a long way since he had them and that wasn't his fault.

danincanada is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 10:56 AM
  #19
Evilo
Registered User
 
Evilo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: France
Country: France
Posts: 36,858
vCash: 500
Again if you swap Bourque and Orr, who gets the Cup?

Evilo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 11:47 AM
  #20
YippieKaey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Stockholm Sweden
Country: Sweden
Posts: 79
vCash: 500
Bourque might not have brought a cup but had some very good playoff runs, being beaten by the Oilers with and without Gretzky. Not sure if Orr would have fared better against especially the 88 Oilers.

Sure, if medical tech had been better maybe Orr would have had similar longevity. Just like Forsberg could have been the best player in the league for ten years and Mario could have scored 250 points. But they didn't.

And im going out on a limb here since i haven't seen as much of Orr but was he really as good as Bourque in playing defense?

YippieKaey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 11:54 AM
  #21
GMR
Registered User
 
GMR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Kansas City, MO
Country: United States
Posts: 983
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral Awesome View Post
Invalid criteria for judging an individual player

OT: As much as I love me some Bourque, the only answer here is Orr; his peak was simply the best we've ever seen from anyone not named Gretzky.
Better than Lemieux's 199 point season?

GMR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 04:51 PM
  #22
Sens Rule
Registered User
 
Sens Rule's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 22,980
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Well, he was represented by Alan Eagleson...
He was conned and stolen from by Alan Eagleson who he trusted like a father.

Offered some small percentage of the Bruins Eagleson does not even tell Orr because who is an agent gonna get a cut of that?

Legendarily Orr didn't Cash paycheques in Chicago because being injured and not playing he did not deserve it.

Orr is famously classy. Kids signing with Orr now that he is a player agent likely can trust his word as if it is etched in stone.

I mean Orr vs Bourque is an interesting debate on whether 22 seasons vs 8/9 better seasons.

Any off shoot where "classiness" is some kind of issue in the debate is ridiculous.

Sens Rule is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2017, 06:10 PM
  #23
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Hôlle
Posts: 34,988
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sens Rule View Post
He was conned and stolen from by Alan Eagleson who he trusted like a father.

Offered some small percentage of the Bruins Eagleson does not even tell Orr because who is an agent gonna get a cut of that?

Legendarily Orr didn't Cash paycheques in Chicago because being injured and not playing he did not deserve it.

Orr is famously classy. Kids signing with Orr now that he is a player agent likely can trust his word as if it is etched in stone.

I mean Orr vs Bourque is an interesting debate on whether 22 seasons vs 8/9 better seasons.

Any off shoot where "classiness" is some kind of issue in the debate is ridiculous.
Well, yeah, but he did negociate some lucrative (for the time) deals for Orr, even pulling some kind of "threat" move.
That obviously doesn't any bearing on anything in this thread.

MXD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-22-2017, 02:45 AM
  #24
Cursed Lemon
Registered Bruiser
 
Cursed Lemon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Dey-Twah, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 7,728
vCash: 500
Send a message via Skype™ to Cursed Lemon
Bourque definitely had generational knees.

Cursed Lemon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-22-2017, 05:37 AM
  #25
Moose Head
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Toronto
Country: Vatican City State
Posts: 3,289
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral Awesome View Post
Don't know about Harvey but I'd say Bourque had a much better overall career than Lidstrom.
Better perhaps, but not 'much' better. It's arguable.

Moose Head is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:27 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. @2017 All Rights Reserved.