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The Life Long Discussion - Murray vs. Fleury (Keep it here) Part VI

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Old
04-21-2017, 07:40 AM
  #326
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Old
04-21-2017, 07:42 AM
  #327
Shady Machine
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Originally Posted by Giskard View Post
My concern is that this is a really different team when we play on the road, whenever is Murray or Fleury. This is the greatest advantage that the Caps have at the moment (if they qualify ...).
Check the home and away stats for the two goalies.

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04-21-2017, 07:52 AM
  #328
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Murray on the road is the same as murray at home. So yes the team as a whole plays worse on the road. But Murray doesn't. No Murray, no ECF if we face the caps. thats pretty much it. Can't have a goalie like Fleury giving you a for sure bad game 4 outta 7 times. Maybe we outscore the caps at verizion a couple times but doubt it. They can keep up offensivly.

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04-21-2017, 07:58 AM
  #329
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
Check the home and away stats for the two goalies.
Nope I was talking about the team ... Murray gave us better stats, but if it doesn't translate to a team win, then ... they are just stats.

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Old
04-21-2017, 08:13 AM
  #330
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Originally Posted by Giskard View Post
Nope I was talking about the team ... Murray gave us better stats, but if it doesn't translate to a team win, then ... they are just stats.
Check the wins:

Murray
Home Record: 17-3-2 2.5GAA .924SV%
Road Record: 15-7-2 2.31GAA .922SV%

Fleury
Home Record: 14-3-2 2.52GAA .928SV%
Road Record: 4-7-5 3.58GAA .887SV%

It appears to be primarily a Fleury problem. Murray has very similar stats and only a slightly worse record (which isn't surprising). Fleury on the other hand...

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04-21-2017, 08:49 AM
  #331
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Originally Posted by Honour Over Glory View Post
The guy is 4-1 with a .933 SV% and just had a 49 save performance and all people want to do is ***** at people cheering him, being positive about him, and him smiling.
Are you capable of actually making arguments or are these kind of posts littered with insults the best you can do?

There are legitimate concerns I have with Fleury right now despite his excellent play at home in the playoffs. I don't think the Penguins can win a series with Fleury in net where:

A. They don't have home ice advantage
B. They play a team that actually has a good goalie that can prevent the Penguins from scoring 4 goals every game
C. The other team is actually being productive offensively under a coach that encourages offense

I'm not concerned with him at home, but any series where we have more away games than home games is a huge problem. Just look at his home/road split in either the playoffs, this season or his career to support that. If the Capitals lose in the 1st round, that is huge for the potential of winning with Fleury in net. However, they still need to face teams with better goaltending and better offenses than what the Jackets had. Realistically, the Jackets were a wildcard caliber team.


Last edited by DegenX: 04-21-2017 at 09:05 AM.
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Old
04-21-2017, 08:51 AM
  #332
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Originally Posted by OGBobbyFarnham View Post
I mean, i want to see him win a Cup this year too but it's super annoying seeing him as the PIT starter in the 2017 PO's. A year after the younger, cheaper, better goalie led the team to a Cup.

I'm not pissed at MAF. I'm pissed at JR.
This would still be going on if Jarry was our starter. JR made the right decision 100%.

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04-21-2017, 08:58 AM
  #333
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
This would still be going on if Jarry was our starter. JR made the right decision 100%.
Without knowing what other options were available in the off season, I agree JR made the right choice at the deadline. I wanted Fleury traded, but I can admit I was wrong. Clearly Elliott wasn't the answer (some of us suggested him as a back up to Murray at the draft) to win us a playoff round if Murray couldn't go.

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04-21-2017, 08:58 AM
  #334
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Originally Posted by Giskard View Post
Even after Fleury helped the team pass by the CBJ, the right things to do were to trade him ?!? WTF people !!! I understand that this is Hockey Future, but we are playing play-off hockey right now, and the best chance to win the Cup this year was to keep MAF till the end of the season.
You didn't know that Condon not only would get waived in October but also be really good this year at the draft last June, like everyone else did?

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04-21-2017, 09:02 AM
  #335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
Check the wins:

Murray
Home Record: 17-3-2 2.5GAA .924SV%
Road Record: 15-7-2 2.31GAA .922SV%

Fleury
Home Record: 14-3-2 2.52GAA .928SV%
Road Record: 4-7-5 3.58GAA .887SV%

It appears to be primarily a Fleury problem. Murray has very similar stats and only a slightly worse record (which isn't surprising). Fleury on the other hand...
I wasn't saying that Fleury is better then Murray on the road, you're right Murray stats are better, but that lost column are pretty much the same whichever goalie is in the net (Murray also played, and won, more road games).
Right now Fleury is 1-1 in play off road games, I wish Murray would be back for round 2, but nonetheless the team has to perform better on the road. I would be satisfied if we keep a 50% win in road games

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Old
04-21-2017, 09:03 AM
  #336
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
You didn't know that Condon not only would get waived in October but also be really good this year at the draft last June, like everyone else did?
Well we did know that the Pens had him on the roster after it happened. Of course, it's possible there weren't trade options for Fleury at the time and for cap reasons, we had to move Condon. We never really got a great explanation on that one.

Still, it's not clear to me that I'd rather have Condon starting right now over Fleury. Obviously that extra cap space would have been nice and maybe allowed the Pens to bring in Shattenkirk or something, but I'm not going to complain too much right now. JR's patience appears to be the better solution than my quick trigger finger. We will see how expansion goes.

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04-21-2017, 09:05 AM
  #337
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Originally Posted by Giskard View Post
I wasn't saying that Fleury is better then Murray on the road, you're right Murray stats are better, but that lost column are pretty much the same whichever goalie is in the net (Murray also played, and won, more road games).
Right now Fleury is 1-1 in play off road games, I wish Murray would be back for round 2, but nonetheless the team has to perform better on the road. I would be satisfied if we keep a 50% win in road games
You are really struggling to understand statistics my friend. The reality is that Fleury's win% on the road (25%) is materially lower vs home (74%). Murray's is much closer to equal (77% home, 63% road). These stats are for the 2016-17 regular season.

You made the argument that the team is bad on the road and that even though Murray has better individual stats, if it doesn't translate to wins, it doesn't matter. I showed you that it does indeed translate to wins and then you offered whatever this weird reply is supposed to mean.

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Old
04-21-2017, 09:19 AM
  #338
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Outside of game 4, I think MAF had a really good series. With game 5 being the best game he played. Last night..sure, he could have had the 1st goal but I wont complain too much. No chance on the 2nd. I'm glad we have MAF available to play. I think Jarry will be a fantastic goalie moving forward but Im not sure he's there yet.

Having said that .. this is still MM's team and MAF needs to go. But for now, Im happy he is still around.

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Old
04-21-2017, 09:28 AM
  #339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
You are really struggling to understand statistics my friend. The reality is that Fleury's win% on the road (25%) is materially lower vs home (74%). Murray's is much closer to equal (77% home, 63% road). These stats are for the 2016-17 regular season.

You made the argument that the team is bad on the road and that even though Murray has better individual stats, if it doesn't translate to wins, it doesn't matter. I showed you that it does indeed translate to wins and then you offered whatever this weird reply is supposed to mean.
What I was trying to say is ... I don't know anymore, sir

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Old
04-21-2017, 09:56 AM
  #340
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Originally Posted by Old Gregg View Post
Do you hate all the penguins superstars because past management was brutal and a former pen superstar got traded and made comments about dying alive?

You are hating on somebody for something he has no control over. Fleury knows the situation. He's gone after this season. Hell he even has 2003-2017 on his tribute mask that he's been wearing. This new management hasn't been signing old veterans like Shero was. That crap is thankfully behind us. But why can't people just acknowledge that he played a great game last night and kept the team in it. He made a huge save when it was 3-2 and shut it down in the third. Even the goals against weren't on him. First one was deflected off of dumos stick I believe and the second one was because of a horrible PK. The guy just made 49 saves on 51 shots. Did Murray even face that many shots in a game last year in the playoffs?
How am I hating on Fleury? I never said anything about the man himself or even his play. I just said that last off season was the ideal time to move him with the expansion draft looming. There is nothing controversial about that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giskard View Post
Even after Fleury helped the team pass by the CBJ, the right things to do were to trade him ?!? WTF people !!! I understand that this is Hockey Future, but we are playing play-off hockey right now, and the best chance to win the Cup this year was to keep MAF till the end of the season.
Yes, last offseason was the right time to move him and the Penguins beating a frankly poor Jackets team does not change that. Maybe Fleury continues to play well and maximizes his value for a potential trade this offseason. At the same time, maybe Fleury implodes and tanks his own value.

So tell me, what was so genius about not trading Fleury aside from the fact that the Penguins won a playoff round against a team that never looked like they had a serious chance of beating the Penguins?

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Old
04-21-2017, 10:16 AM
  #341
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Originally Posted by Giskard View Post
What I was trying to say is ... I don't know anymore, sir
Fair enough. I've had plenty of those myself!

You are right that Fleury is 1-1 on the road in the playoffs and hopefully he and the team can shore things up a bit more in the next round.

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Old
04-21-2017, 10:18 AM
  #342
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Originally Posted by NewAgeOutlaw View Post
Yes, last offseason was the right time to move him and the Penguins beating a frankly poor Jackets team does not change that. Maybe Fleury continues to play well and maximizes his value for a potential trade this offseason. At the same time, maybe Fleury implodes and tanks his own value.

So tell me, what was so genius about not trading Fleury aside from the fact that the Penguins won a playoff round against a team that never looked like they had a serious chance of beating the Penguins?
Alright, I'm getting sick of this "poor" or "average" Jackets team thing. I guess we will find out in the next round, but that's a good hockey team IMO and we beat them in 5 games. The biggest difference between the Jackets and our next opponent is probably finishing ability. Jackets don't have many pure goal scorers that can hurt you from far out. That said, the Pens did a nice job limiting those opportunities.

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04-21-2017, 10:24 AM
  #343
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
Alright, I'm getting sick of this "poor" or "average" Jackets team thing. I guess we will find out in the next round, but that's a good hockey team IMO and we beat them in 5 games. The biggest difference between the Jackets and our next opponent is probably finishing ability. Jackets don't have many pure goal scorers that can hurt you from far out. That said, the Pens did a nice job limiting those opportunities.
To be fair, if the Jackets even got somewhat respectable goaltending (something we are all familiar with), the series would have been very different.

They are definitely a good team.

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Old
04-21-2017, 10:25 AM
  #344
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Originally Posted by Empoleon8771 View Post
B. They play a team that actually has a good goalie that can prevent the Penguins from scoring 4 goals every game
.
Okay the guy who's going to win the Vezina Trophy this year isn't even a good goalie


Heck, Holtby has let in over 3 goals a game, and we've lit him up in the past. He's not really more a brick wall than Bobrovsky.

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Old
04-21-2017, 10:26 AM
  #345
Empoleon8771
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Originally Posted by Mattpilf View Post
Okay the guy who's going to win the Vezina Trophy this year isn't even a good goalie


Heck, Holtby has let in over 3 goals a game, and we've lit him up in the past. He's not really more a brick wall than Bobrovsky.
In the playoffs? Yeah, he wasn't a good goalie and hasn't been in his entire career. I honestly don't know how you could possibly argue otherwise. And the Penguins certainly haven't "lit up Holtby" in the past, that's just a flat out lie. People forget that he had a .923 save% against the Penguins last year, any idea that the Penguins "lit him up" is demonstrably false. The reason the Penguins won that series last year is because Murray outplayed Holtby, something I don't think Fleury could do (especially not when he'll be playing more road games than home games).

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04-21-2017, 10:31 AM
  #346
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I'm happy for Fleury, and he did make all of the saves he needed. However, did anyone else not notice some of the rebounds he was giving up? Toronto or Washington will finish more of the rebounds bouncing off his kick saves.

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04-21-2017, 10:35 AM
  #347
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Originally Posted by CanadianPensFan1 View Post
To be fair, if the Jackets even got somewhat respectable goaltending (something we are all familiar with), the series would have been very different.

They are definitely a good team.
Yup I agree. We still win the series, for sure, but Bob didn't really help matters.

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04-21-2017, 10:36 AM
  #348
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Realistically we should want the Leafs because home ice favors Maf but I think both teams present big challenges. The Leafs are much more adept at scoring goals than the Jackets were, and the Leafs can play with a lot of speed and pace as well just like we do.

The Caps are the Caps. They're basically Columbus but with finishing ability and a goalie who doesn't disappear in the playoffs. Still stylistically we almost match up better vs them than we do the Leafs.

But I still want the Leafs mainly because Holtby is a much tougher test than Andersen, and Maf needs the home ice.

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04-21-2017, 10:37 AM
  #349
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Originally Posted by NewAgeOutlaw View Post
Nonsense. Murray had a little slump at the end of the year. There was never a few months of him playing poorly. It got blown out of proportion at the time and you are enforcing the myth.
Thank you for saying that so I don't have to. Murray has never been 'very bad'. The worst I would say of him is he's had a handful of games this year where he wasn't quite pulling his weight. But I would much rather have that (while he develops, this is his first full year after all) than the backbreaking goals, flopping, overplaying simple shots, rebounds, incessant pokechecks, coming out of the crease to cut angles on a shot when there are 2 opposing team wingers on his sides.

I was a Fleury fanboi prior to 2009 I've been watching him a long time. I would venture to say that something has been off with his focus starting right around the time his wife was pregnant with their first child. Not saying that's related to his play (but who knows maybe his wife puts him on baby duty every night), but it's just something I noticed.

I wish Murrays injury wasn't such an enigma but maybe it's better that way, ignorance is bliss. I will eat 20 pounds of crow if I have to but there's no way we'll get the consistency, level-headedness, and skill out of MAF to win the cup this year. I'm sorry to sound so pessimistic but I've watched Marc for too many years to allow myself to indulge in blind faith.

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04-21-2017, 10:38 AM
  #350
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Originally Posted by kyle3434 View Post
I'm happy for Fleury, and he did make all of the saves he needed. However, did anyone else not notice some of the rebounds he was giving up? Toronto or Washington will finish more of the rebounds bouncing off his kick saves.
Yes many of us here noticed them. The rest of the fandom didn't appear to. I usually don't comment on facebook but a guy last night said "Anyone here still want to trade Fleury" and I said "yes, while Fleury has played well, I'm still not confident with him in the playoffs, his rebound control has been an issue, Murray is younger, yadda yadda" and he said "Wow you're a special kind of stupid". That's the general fanbase opinion.

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