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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

Quebec Nordiques: expansion or relocation

View Poll Results: Will Quebec City get a team via expansion or relocation?
Expansion 55 10.66%
Relocation 346 67.05%
QC will not get an NHL team 115 22.29%
Voters: 516. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
04-20-2017, 06:42 AM
  #526
madhi19
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Originally Posted by Peter Skudra View Post
But Quebec has a beautiful arena and an ownership group, they are in good position to land a franchise.
Do they really have a ownership group? Or did the city just sold control and naming rights of the new arena to a corporation that gave up on the idea the moment the ink dried.

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Old
04-20-2017, 06:46 AM
  #527
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Do they really have a ownership group? Or did the city just sold control and naming rights of the new arena to a corporation that gave up on the idea the moment the ink dried.
Thats exactly what I think. What other conclusion we can make when they host MTL for two pre season games. Total lack of respect to the die hard Nords guys.

Quebecor are now seen like traitors to the point lots want someone else then Quebecor bid for a team now.

Lets be honest, since 1995, never never we saw a positive sign towards the return of the NHL in Qc.

It doesnt work, period.

Will not happen.

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04-20-2017, 08:13 AM
  #528
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As far as alignment/time-zone issues go... how come Baseball and the NBA never seem to have these problems?
They're not playing a sport that's extremely difficult to play in warm weather. People tend to follow the sports they play as kids, and until fairly recently, hockey wasn't a strong enough presence as a youth sport in the American south and west to develop interest.

As a result, there aren't many rich men willing to put an NHL team in their city on spec, so the places that have rich hockey histories are mostly in the Eastern time zone. This limits the number of rivals and powerful draws in the Central, Mountain, and Pacific, so we have a heavily lopsided league.

(There are several dozen more answers to this question, but this is one.)

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04-20-2017, 09:59 AM
  #529
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Do they really have a ownership group? Or did the city just sold control and naming rights of the new arena to a corporation that gave up on the idea the moment the ink dried.
Oh I'm sure their aspirations & ambitions are real enough however there are obviously some obstacles unique to Quebecor & specifically Peladeau that may or may not be insurmountable so its worth looking at, talking about.... I'm referring quite specifically to the long running competition & enmities he & earlier his father has had & continues to have with the Molsons, Bell & other competing interests in the province.... for example; in 2009, stung by Molsons purchase of the Canadiens, Peladeau politicizes the situation, another poison dart at the Molsons stating he "would have preferred the Montreal Canadiens be based on a Quebecois identity". The clear inference being that as the Molsons were/are pillars of English Quebec that they were therefore "not Quebecois enough", not worthy to be owners of so important a Quebec cultural & sports institution. Then in 2011, he, or rather through Quebecor, attempted to block the construction of Place Bell in the Montreal suburb of Laval, a 10K seat arena in which the Canadiens will be housing their AHL franchise. Failed block of course but like a lot of other actions & comments he's made about the Molsons & Bell over the years, leading with his elbows, hot headed... and despite Molsons denials & publicly stated support for a return of the Nordiques one really does have to wonder just how genuine that support really is. Could be that yes, they totally support the return of the Nordiques, they just dont support a Quebecor & Peladeau ownership of the team so when they claim they'd love to see the club's return, its a half truth. As most PQ based posters are well aware, this Molsons/Peladeau rivalry goes back years, multiple fronts. Telecom, cable, print media, broadcast, labor, on & on. Its not a stretch, not tinfoil hat conspiracy to take a real hard look at whats going down here & disregard that dynamic, possible roadblock. Only problem is proof. Like trying to nail Jello to the wall. Molson's certainly wont admit to it publicly and I can well imagine the NHL BOG's aware of this situation not about to make it public. Peladeau & Quebecor, Mulroney politely turned away with a vague promise, told to behave & play the game or they'll never get in. The Molsons & the NHL hoping Peladeau gets tired of waiting, goes away, then his successor's getting in.... Its possible.... but... the arena deal... that would have to be sorted.


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Old
04-20-2017, 12:44 PM
  #530
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2 habs preseason games have been announced for september at the Colisée Vidéotron (One vs the Leafs and one vs the Bruins). I guess it's over for next year.

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04-20-2017, 01:17 PM
  #531
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2 habs preseason games have been announced for september at the Colisée Vidéotron (One vs the Leafs and one vs the Bruins). I guess it's over for next year.
It's been discussed on the last page. In 2011, the Lightning and Blues had a preseason game scheduled in Winnipeg which they eventually had to move to Orlando. Still too much all-around volatility to count anything out, IMO.

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04-20-2017, 02:09 PM
  #532
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What hurts me the most is that evenko, Habs and Goeff Molson himself are ALL PROUD to give an opportunity to Habs fans from Quebec to see a hockey game in their brand new arena.

But behind closed doors, that ****er (Molson) shuts every opportunity Quebec City gets to have a team.

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04-20-2017, 03:54 PM
  #533
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What hurts me the most is that evenko, Habs and Goeff Molson himself are ALL PROUD to give an opportunity to Habs fans from Quebec to see a hockey game in their brand new arena.

But behind closed doors, that ****er (Molson) shuts every opportunity Quebec City gets to have a team.
Why wouldn't he? Nobody in Montreal cares about Quebec City.

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04-20-2017, 04:06 PM
  #534
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Why wouldn't he? Nobody in Montreal cares about Quebec City.
They will care when molson is boycotted...

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04-20-2017, 04:35 PM
  #535
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They will care when molson is boycotted...
... gotta prove it MM and after the leagues previous experiences in that regard... totally closed ranks.

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Old
04-21-2017, 08:15 AM
  #536
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Why wouldn't he? Nobody in Montreal cares about Quebec City.
Publicly claiming it is hard tho, ain't it ?

Shows you how much they don't care about Quebec City.

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04-21-2017, 11:25 AM
  #537
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
They will care when molson is boycotted...
Well this is not the 80s and the Molson family does not own a beer business anymore. Boycotting BCE(Bell) who own 15% of the habs and a bloody big chunk of MLSE would probably have a bigger effect.

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04-21-2017, 12:21 PM
  #538
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Do they really have a ownership group? Or did the city just sold control and naming rights of the new arena to a corporation that gave up on the idea the moment the ink dried.
Quebecor...

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Old
04-24-2017, 12:58 AM
  #539
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Quebec might not have one unless Bettman quits.

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04-24-2017, 02:55 AM
  #540
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I don't think the Arizona saga will last forever. The team is a doormat, living on subsidy. With Vegas coming on board it is time to bury the mirage in the desert. Arizona moving to Quebec would be the simple way to save face with a nagging problem.

Move Detroit to the Central, Colorado to the Pacific. Seattle is still not even on the tracks.

Detroit, Chicago, Minnesota, St. Louis and Nashville give the opportunity to NBC to get primetime exposure outside the Metropolis. Detroit's biggest problem was the Western Conference playoff format which disadvantaged it. And travel costs.

But make the structure more concentrated on divisional rivalries, with only 2 games against every other division, or the proposed 4 conference structure, with no wild cards, thus guaranteed regional matchups, and I think you have a recipe to satisfy both Detroit and the Networks.

Rogers TVA would gladly trade Quebec, for Detroit, with NBC, out of the ashes of a franchise nobody wants, except Winnipeg, for its rightful history.

NBC can not be thrilled with Canadian teams crossed over with its marquee markets in the playoff structure. Only Toronto and Montreal have any prestige, and I think that is more Detroit-Toronto, Boston-Montreal.

$350 million for the Yotes, with a $90 million transfer fee, and $60 million indemnity to Molson would appease all parties, no?

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04-24-2017, 09:28 AM
  #541
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I don't think the Arizona saga will last forever. The team is a doormat, living on subsidy. With Vegas coming on board it is time to bury the mirage in the desert. Arizona moving to Quebec would be the simple way to save face with a nagging problem.

Move Detroit to the Central, Colorado to the Pacific. Seattle is still not even on the tracks.

Detroit, Chicago, Minnesota, St. Louis and Nashville give the opportunity to NBC to get primetime exposure outside the Metropolis. Detroit's biggest problem was the Western Conference playoff format which disadvantaged it. And travel costs.

But make the structure more concentrated on divisional rivalries, with only 2 games against every other division, or the proposed 4 conference structure, with no wild cards, thus guaranteed regional matchups, and I think you have a recipe to satisfy both Detroit and the Networks.

Rogers TVA would gladly trade Quebec, for Detroit, with NBC, out of the ashes of a franchise nobody wants, except Winnipeg, for its rightful history.

NBC can not be thrilled with Canadian teams crossed over with its marquee markets in the playoff structure. Only Toronto and Montreal have any prestige, and I think that is more Detroit-Toronto, Boston-Montreal.

$350 million for the Yotes, with a $90 million transfer fee, and $60 million indemnity to Molson would appease all parties, no?
Detroit to west ain't going to happen. Not unless somehow Detroit keeps missing playoffs while in East but would have made them if they played in West. Otherwise, forget about it.

As for the price. $350M is overpaying. And $60M to Molson as compensation for what ?

Quebec is outside their market. TV markets overlap, so they can have Quebec as TV market but Quebec can have them as TV market as well.

They wouldn't even be on the same network, RDS is Habs local rights holder, TVA for national. TVA would still be national for any new Canadian team and most likely TVA would be the local rights holder for Quebec.

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04-24-2017, 10:19 AM
  #542
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Originally Posted by voyageur View Post
I don't think the Arizona saga will last forever. The team is a doormat, living on subsidy. With Vegas coming on board it is time to bury the mirage in the desert. Arizona moving to Quebec would be the simple way to save face with a nagging problem.

Move Detroit to the Central, Colorado to the Pacific. Seattle is still not even on the tracks.

Detroit, Chicago, Minnesota, St. Louis and Nashville give the opportunity to NBC to get primetime exposure outside the Metropolis. Detroit's biggest problem was the Western Conference playoff format which disadvantaged it. And travel costs.

But make the structure more concentrated on divisional rivalries, with only 2 games against every other division, or the proposed 4 conference structure, with no wild cards, thus guaranteed regional matchups, and I think you have a recipe to satisfy both Detroit and the Networks.

Rogers TVA would gladly trade Quebec, for Detroit, with NBC, out of the ashes of a franchise nobody wants, except Winnipeg, for its rightful history.

NBC can not be thrilled with Canadian teams crossed over with its marquee markets in the playoff structure. Only Toronto and Montreal have any prestige, and I think that is more Detroit-Toronto, Boston-Montreal.

$350 million for the Yotes, with a $90 million transfer fee, and $60 million indemnity to Molson would appease all parties, no?
You want a neat prediction that does not involve sending Detroit or anybody West. If Quebec get the Yotes (Big IF) they play in the Central until the next lockout or whenever Seattle get their bloody act together. The Jets did the same thing, the Leafs played West until the late 90s the Habs did it for most of the 70s. Quebecor and Rogers might even grow to like the idea of having a bunch of Habs/Nords double header on TVAsports/Sportsnet.

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04-24-2017, 10:35 AM
  #543
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You want a neat prediction that does not involve sending Detroit or anybody West. If Quebec get the Yotes (Big IF) they play in the Central until the next lockout or whenever Seattle get their bloody act together. The Jets did the same thing, the Leafs played West until the late 90s the Habs did it for most of the 70s. Quebecor and Rogers might even grow to like the idea of having a bunch of Habs/Nords double header on TVAsports/Sportsnet.
They might like that idea, but I can't imagine they'd like it as much as they'd like the idea of more Habs/Nords games every year.

I remain convinced that there are multiple solutions to this situation, but the league isn't going to like any of them. (I've had this argument a few times with people here, so Kev, MNNumbers, this will be a rehash for you guys, but what the hey.)

1) Arizona finds a Western solution (SEA, POR, ARZ), Quebec gets the Hurricanes, Islanders, or Panthers down the line.
2) Arizona finds a Western solution, all the Eastern teams find solutions to their problems in their current markets, the league quietly guarantees Quebec the Eastern slot when they expand to 34 teams (which I'm convinced they'll do eventually, just not soon.)
3) The league goes to 33 teams and 3 11-team conferences, we haul out Numbers' impressive/confusing playoff schedule, and the league does whatever they damn well please with the alignment.
4) Arizona moves to QC, plays in the Central with some schedule shenanigans to get them more games against the Atlantic, COL to the Pacific (This comes in long-term and short-term flavors, depending on whether the Isles, Hurricanes, and Panthers remain where they are or if one of them goes to the PNW.)
5) Arizona moves to QC, the league realigns to 4 conferences, one comprised solely of Mountain and Pacific Time Zone teams, the other three comprised of intermingled Eastern and Central Time Zone teams. (I like this, it feels new and interesting, and it puts more of the onus of travel on the Eastern teams, but there are objections.) This works with an 8/8/7 ETZ/CTZ alignment, and the league can expand to an ETZ city (TO2, HAM, MRK, CLE, VA, whatever) to get to 32.

Long term, I think Arizona and Carolina are the dominoes to fall. If the Seattle Process completes, or Paul Allen steps up for the Coyotes, the Hurricanes will move to Quebec (I do not foresee a local buyer stepping up there), and there will be no realignment. If Arizona cannot hold until a Western solution is found, then Quebec will play in the Central. The other options I laid out above strike me as much less likely.

The one thing I am sure of (and yes, this is where the more cynical of us might want to start warming up some crow for yours truly) is that neither Detroit nor Columbus will submit willingly to an alignment that sees them in the Central, in either Division or Conference form. They've paid their dues, they feel they've earned their spot in the East, and they're where their natural rivals are. They won't want to give that up, and I don't think any owners are going to want to force them to do so for the sake of a team that doesn't even exist at the moment.

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04-24-2017, 10:51 AM
  #544
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They might like that idea, but I can't imagine they'd like it as much as they'd like the idea of more Habs/Nords games every year.

The one thing I am sure of (and yes, this is where the more cynical of us might want to start warming up some crow for yours truly) is that neither Detroit nor Columbus will submit willingly to an alignment that sees them in the Central, in either Division or Conference form. They've paid their dues, they feel they've earned their spot in the East, and they're where their natural rivals are. They won't want to give that up, and I don't think any owners are going to want to force them to do so for the sake of a team that doesn't even exist at the moment.
Quality over quantity, just two games mean you're going to make both of them a Saturday night game. Big happening, with lot of hype will equal great ratings. The Habs playing the Bruins, and the Leafs five or six times a year got old pretty damn fast. Also by looking at the Yotes roster and the kind of roster the Habs could have soon. I think they both are going to be really bad for three to four years minimum. If their cycle could match then you have two decent team just in time for the NHL to fix the alignment anyway. The CoyoNords are not making the playoff anytime soon.

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04-24-2017, 11:12 AM
  #545
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The CoyoNords are not making the playoff anytime soon.
This may or may not be the case. I don't see the Nordiques being a huge free agent destination long-term, but at least for the first few years they may be a bigger draw than they might otherwise be (especially for francophone free agents), from the novelty factor and the potential appeal of being part of the team that brought hockey back to Quebec City. They'll also have ownership capable of spending to the cap floor for the first time in years, which will allow for a quick and substantial overhaul of the roster, even if they do end up having to overpay for people.

I can see an argument in favor of slow-rolling the move of Quebec to the Atlantic, but I can't see one in favor of it never happening, which is what you risk by putting Quebec in the Central to start. Eventually you're going to have to realign, and what happens when you have 17 teams adamant about not moving west? Someone's getting kicked off the island at some point.

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04-24-2017, 11:46 AM
  #546
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The NHL will never expand to more than 32 teams Dilbert... Forget about it.

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04-24-2017, 04:36 PM
  #547
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I think Seattle. and that will be it for a long time.

sorry guys.

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04-24-2017, 04:56 PM
  #548
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They might like that idea, but I can't imagine they'd like it as much as they'd like the idea of more Habs/Nords games every year.

I remain convinced that there are multiple solutions to this situation, but the league isn't going to like any of them. (I've had this argument a few times with people here, so Kev, MNNumbers, this will be a rehash for you guys, but what the hey.)

1) Arizona finds a Western solution (SEA, POR, ARZ), Quebec gets the Hurricanes, Islanders, or Panthers down the line.
2) Arizona finds a Western solution, all the Eastern teams find solutions to their problems in their current markets, the league quietly guarantees Quebec the Eastern slot when they expand to 34 teams (which I'm convinced they'll do eventually, just not soon.)
3) The league goes to 33 teams and 3 11-team conferences, we haul out Numbers' impressive/confusing playoff schedule, and the league does whatever they damn well please with the alignment.
4) Arizona moves to QC, plays in the Central with some schedule shenanigans to get them more games against the Atlantic, COL to the Pacific (This comes in long-term and short-term flavors, depending on whether the Isles, Hurricanes, and Panthers remain where they are or if one of them goes to the PNW.)
5) Arizona moves to QC, the league realigns to 4 conferences, one comprised solely of Mountain and Pacific Time Zone teams, the other three comprised of intermingled Eastern and Central Time Zone teams. (I like this, it feels new and interesting, and it puts more of the onus of travel on the Eastern teams, but there are objections.) This works with an 8/8/7 ETZ/CTZ alignment, and the league can expand to an ETZ city (TO2, HAM, MRK, CLE, VA, whatever) to get to 32.

Long term, I think Arizona and Carolina are the dominoes to fall. If the Seattle Process completes, or Paul Allen steps up for the Coyotes, the Hurricanes will move to Quebec (I do not foresee a local buyer stepping up there), and there will be no realignment. If Arizona cannot hold until a Western solution is found, then Quebec will play in the Central. The other options I laid out above strike me as much less likely.

The one thing I am sure of (and yes, this is where the more cynical of us might want to start warming up some crow for yours truly) is that neither Detroit nor Columbus will submit willingly to an alignment that sees them in the Central, in either Division or Conference form. They've paid their dues, they feel they've earned their spot in the East, and they're where their natural rivals are. They won't want to give that up, and I don't think any owners are going to want to force them to do so for the sake of a team that doesn't even exist at the moment.
1- I think this is the neatest solution. However, we really don't know about Carolina and/or Florida

2- A much longer shot, both for the reason that I am not at all sure that Carolina/Florida can be fixed. If they can, I don't think a further expansion is a good idea.

3- That's not my playoff system, and, given the way the BOG dealt with the last re-alignment, that's a real long shot.

4- My favorite solution altogether. Quebec is the only place a relo can really go and fall into a market that will instantly support them. Many here have seen my schedule ideas. It's not even that complicated.

5- We've talked about it for a long time in various threads here, and I think they are all pipe dreams. BOG is far more likely to hang on to Time Zone Divisions.

4 conferences, though, is likely, even in the case of #3.

Seattle remains a wild card, because we really don't know about the arena situation there, and won't for a while yet. I don't think a relo to Seattle is a good idea, though. It would be like dropping the Jets into Phoenix. Tough to build excitement when there are only 3 months available to build buzz.

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04-27-2017, 02:17 PM
  #549
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Originally Posted by dilbert719 View Post
(I've had this argument a few times with people here, so Kev, MNNumbers, this will be a rehash for you guys, but what the hey.)

1) Arizona finds a Western solution (SEA, POR, ARZ), Quebec gets the Hurricanes, Islanders, or Panthers down the line.

2) Arizona finds a Western solution, all the Eastern teams find solutions to their problems in their current markets, the league quietly guarantees Quebec the Eastern slot when they expand to 34 teams (which I'm convinced they'll do eventually, just not soon.)

3) The league goes to 33 teams and 3 11-team conferences, we haul out Numbers' impressive/confusing playoff schedule, and the league does whatever they damn well please with the alignment.

4) Arizona moves to QC, plays in the Central with some schedule shenanigans to get them more games against the Atlantic, COL to the Pacific (This comes in long-term and short-term flavors, depending on whether the Isles, Hurricanes, and Panthers remain where they are or if one of them goes to the PNW.)

5) Arizona moves to QC, the league realigns to 4 conferences, one comprised solely of Mountain and Pacific Time Zone teams, the other three comprised of intermingled Eastern and Central Time Zone teams. (I like this, it feels new and interesting, and it puts more of the onus of travel on the Eastern teams, but there are objections.) This works with an 8/8/7 ETZ/CTZ alignment, and the league can expand to an ETZ city (TO2, HAM, MRK, CLE, VA, whatever) to get to 32.

Long term, I think Arizona and Carolina are the dominoes to fall. If the Seattle Process completes, or Paul Allen steps up for the Coyotes, the Hurricanes will move to Quebec (I do not foresee a local buyer stepping up there), and there will be no realignment. If Arizona cannot hold until a Western solution is found, then Quebec will play in the Central. The other options I laid out above strike me as much less likely.

The one thing I am sure of (and yes, this is where the more cynical of us might want to start warming up some crow for yours truly) is that neither Detroit nor Columbus will submit willingly to an alignment that sees them in the Central, in either Division or Conference form. They've paid their dues, they feel they've earned their spot in the East, and they're where their natural rivals are. They won't want to give that up, and I don't think any owners are going to want to force them to do so for the sake of a team that doesn't even exist at the moment.
I think the NHL’s cocktail napkin long-term plan is pretty darn close to what you layout in 1 & 2.

1. Quebec getting CAR or FLA (NYI ain’t leaving NYC Metro and their TV deal)
2. Quebec gets team #33 once #32 in the West is found.

3. I don’t see this happening. Yes, the symmetry is GORGEOUS. Scheduling, you get either 4 vs division, 2 vs everyone else; (meh) OR 6 vs division, 1 vs everyone else (hell yes!) = 84 games.

But there’s absolutely zero way you can align 3 conferences of 11 without making at least 11 teams very, very angry. And that’s the EASY part. The hard part is the playoffs.

4. Short term, that’s doable. I believe the reason why Quebec didn’t have the votes to be #31-32 with Vegas was because of HOW MANY TEAMS FEARED future alignments. If the Whalers had moved to Houston and Vegas and Quebec made for 16-16, everyone would be fine with that.

But everyone KNOWS QC in the Central is NOT PERMANENT. Which makes DET, CBJ, FLA, TB, CAR, DAL, NASH, BOS, BUF, TOR, PIT, PHI, WAS all scared that the next realignment proposal screws moves them out of a situation they currently like. Hence, QC didn’t get the votes.

5. The “Four Conference” model is really no different than the division model, when you think about it. But the problem with the “E-Conference” model (which I kind of like from a creativity side, but not an execution side) is that there’s NINE teams in the PT/MT, and again, dividing the teams like an E is problematic. The best case scenario for this plan is Houston joins the NHL, and the path of least resistance is this:

WEST: VAN, EDM, CAL, COL, SJ, LA, ANA, LV, ARZ (9)
NORTH: WIN, MIN, TOR, BUF, MON, OTT, QUE, BOS (8)
MID-ATL: CHI, STL, DET, PIT, NYR, NYI, NJD, PHI (8)
SOUTH: DAL, HOU, NASH, CBJ, WAS, CAR, TB, FLA (8)

This should be called “The TV Network Plan” because it makes everyone’s TV schedule the best possible start times, and creates a ton more inventory for Canada (WIN, TOR, MON, OTT, QUE in one division); for NBC with CHI, DET, PIT, NYR, PHI in the same division. But it basically segregates the South into its own division and that’s TERRIBLE FOR THE LEAGUE.

People like seeing “Traditional opponents” on the schedule. Average age of each franchise (in it’s city) for each division, if LV, Houston and QUE started next year (Counting previous QUE/WIN/MIN/COL stints)

NORTH: 449 (56.2)
MID: 503 (62.3)
SOUTH: 173 (21.6)

It would take about seven seconds before someone said “They should just contract that bottom conference.”

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Old
04-27-2017, 02:54 PM
  #550
Tonester01
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 86
vCash: 500
Add Quebec as an expansion team.
Create a Canadian division Van cal edn win Tor ott mon que
3 us divisions
West sj la Ana phx veg col dal stl
East bos nyr nyi nj phi pit was car
Central chi min det clb Nas tb fla buf

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