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Fighting in the Playoffs

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Old
03-12-2008, 06:22 PM
  #26
bogans
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Originally Posted by LeetchIsGod2 View Post
It think he was saying the Orr has a better upside then hollweg . i dont know about his upside but he is much more valuable then hollweg
i am not a fan of hollweg anymore to be honest i just dont see what he brings to the team anymore
Orr > Hollweg
that equation is far from true in the playoffs. In the playoffs you need to increase speed and hitting, but decrease fighting. Orr has feet that are always stuck in quicksand, cannot hit anybody hard because it takes skating ability. All Orr has is balance and a big right hand. I love him on the team, but come playoff time he should be riding the pine unless the other team is throwing heavyweights out. I don't think many teams will throw heavyweights in the playoffs, as long as that does not go on, Holly, Aves and even Struds can handle any necessary fighting.

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03-12-2008, 06:30 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by TheSchwab View Post
He will never score over 10-15 goals again. He's not big enough and doesn't create offense.
That also quite a ridiculous statement. The kid was good enough to score 30 goals in his rookie year and you can factually say two years later after he has had no major injuries or career changing incidents that there is no way he will EVER score half of that again??

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03-12-2008, 06:50 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bogans View Post
that equation is far from true in the playoffs. In the playoffs you need to increase speed and hitting, but decrease fighting. Orr has feet that are always stuck in quicksand, cannot hit anybody hard because it takes skating ability. All Orr has is balance and a big right hand. I love him on the team, but come playoff time he should be riding the pine unless the other team is throwing heavyweights out. I don't think many teams will throw heavyweights in the playoffs, as long as that does not go on, Holly, Aves and even Struds can handle any necessary fighting.
you say Orr's feet are in quick sand have u seen Strudwick skate ? and although hollweg is kinda fast he isnt a good skater he skates in straight line trying only to lay out a big hit all he does it take stupid penalties at bad times where as orr has developed into a good devensive player and he doesnt even need to fight just be in the line up to let the other team know that cheap shots against our skilled players will not be tolerated and we def cant afford to have Avery in the box for 5 min when he is out top line left wing

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Old
03-12-2008, 08:10 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by bogans View Post
I don't think many teams will throw heavyweights in the playoffs, as long as that does not go on, Holly, Aves and even Struds can handle any necessary fighting.
If Orr does not play than probably the only team that would not have better fighters in the lineup than the Rangers would be Montreal and maybe Carolina. Struds could handle some of them (like Neil, Clarkson, Rupp, Asham, etc) but I would certainly much rather have Orr on the 4th line than Strudwick (unless you're suggesting defense which is odd!)

Anyway, fighting does decrease but hitting and nasty play can increase. Having a detriment like Orr can help keep that from happening. Especially since you play these teams several days in a row, I bet a guy like Begin, Downie, etc will be hesitant to throw cheapshots of they know that Orr is around. Even if he can't immediately do something about a potential cheap shot, if the score gets out of hand in a game, he can go after them late in the game.

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Old
03-12-2008, 08:17 PM
  #30
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i still want a 4th line of this

sjostrom-betts-hollweg......

very fast line that would cause problems i think just because of the fact that they are good defensivley and they hit and make the defense move the puck quickly.....

i know hollweg has, in the past had bad penalties but from what i saw from him later on this season he wasnt getting many penalties, and in a playiff series you need your grinders to be speedy and hit a lot....and that is hollweg, with players like dubi, callahan, avery, hollweg, sjostrom in the line-up for the playoffs, there would be a lot of players who the opposing defence wouldnt like to see out there......

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03-12-2008, 08:19 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
i still want a 4th line of this

sjostrom-betts-hollweg......

very fast line that would cause problems i think just because of the fact that they are good defensivley and they hit and make the defense move the puck quickly.....

i know hollweg has, in the past had bad penalties but from what i saw from him later on this season he wasnt getting many penalties, and in a playiff series you need your grinders to be speedy and hit a lot....and that is hollweg, with players like dubi, callahan, avery, hollweg, sjostrom in the line-up for the playoffs, there would be a lot of players who the opposing defence wouldnt like to see out there......
I really can't decide if I'd rather have Orr or Hollweg. Hollweg has cut down on his penalties - but he's cut down on his hitting as well.

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03-12-2008, 08:31 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
I really can't decide if I'd rather have Orr or Hollweg. Hollweg has cut down on his penalties - but he's cut down on his hitting as well.
yea....i agree, but at least with his speed he can make some plays if he makes a mistake, but orr can not because he is slower....plus, i see hollweg as the more "annoying" player, which is good to have in a long series

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03-12-2008, 09:06 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
yea....i agree, but at least with his speed he can make some plays if he makes a mistake, but orr can not because he is slower....plus, i see hollweg as the more "annoying" player, which is good to have in a long series
Annoying players who have no one to back up their antics can be more trouble than good if the opposition decides to respond in kind to your star players. I'd prefer the guy who all the OTHER TEAMs annoying players will be looking over their shoulders for.

Seems like the board is split.. it will be interesting to see what actually happens.

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03-13-2008, 01:38 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Merlin401 View Post
Which team would you specifically want/not want Orr?

NJ- our rivals... Asham, Clarkson, Rupp, Sheldon Brookbank... at least 2 or 3 of those will be playing
PHILLY- doubt we play them but again, its Philly. Not sure if Cote will play but I have a sneaky suspicion that if we played them he would (along with there other tough players of course)
PIT- Laraque
BOST- Lucic, Chara and Shawn Thornton will all play
OTT- Neil
CAR- Really not sure what lineup they'll play. Might not be necessary, but then again with all their injuries Brookbank might be in and, hell, we've had our nastiest games against them this year!
MTL- No heavyweight here. But the aftertaste of them hitting the hell out of us in that 5-0 comeback game and Hollweg/Avery/etc doing nothing about it while Orr was injured lingers.

Fringe teams:
BUF- well... I dont think they would need him here. Peters will never play.
NYI - basically wouldn't be needed but they are the Isles and Sutton and Witt can be cheap ******** if allowed to run around.
Truthfully Merlin--against Pittsburgh if Laraque is in the lineup which I'd expect and Ottawa if McGrattan is playing. The New Jersey guys are not true heavyweights--with the exception of Rupp I don't see any of those guys answering the bell with Orr but at the same time I don't see any of them not doing what they normally do. They'll look for fights elsewhere if they're looking for them. Ditto with Neil. No way that Chara is going to fight Orr unless his team is behind 3 or 4 goals with 10 minutes to go. That is one uneven matchup in terms of hockey ability. Playoff hockey tends to have more hitting--but less fighting--players need to be careful not to take penalties that hurt their team--running around looking for fights is a bad strategy--winning games and keeping your lineup intact are most important.

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Old
03-13-2008, 08:59 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
Only problem with your agrument is that you're assuming Prucha goes in for Orr as a direct substitution. I think it's much more likely you see this lineup:

Avery-Dubinsky-Jagr
Dawes-Gomez-Shanahan
Straka-Drury-Prucha
Sjostrom-Betts-Callahan

Having said that, if the team continues it's recent trend right up until the start of the POs, Renney may leave Orr in simply out of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." Kinda hard to argue with a 75%+ winning percentage.
pretty soft lineup, avery, callahan, maybe sjostrom, maybe dubi will throw hits, thats it, lame.

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Old
03-13-2008, 11:30 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
Only problem with your agrument is that you're assuming Prucha goes in for Orr as a direct substitution. I think it's much more likely you see this lineup:

Avery-Dubinsky-Jagr
Dawes-Gomez-Shanahan
Straka-Drury-Prucha
Sjostrom-Betts-Callahan
This is a very, very soft lineup. A couple of Neil flying elbows or Asham charges and the game will be lost, even if Shanahan tries to stop the momentum by dropping the gloves. I'd rather have Orr out there as part of SBO line taking regular shifts and giving the Rangers a physical presence and have him be the one to fight if things get out of hand, rather than having Avery or Dubinsky try to do it.

You've added one skilled forward but shaken up two lines and taken out a heavyweight who backs up the bark of guys like Avery and Callahan. I just don't see the massive upside of this change but do see the massive downside of us being too soft again like the shades of the miserable 06 series.

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Old
03-13-2008, 12:15 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
Only problem with your agrument is that you're assuming Prucha goes in for Orr as a direct substitution. I think it's much more likely you see this lineup:

Avery-Dubinsky-Jagr
Dawes-Gomez-Shanahan
Straka-Drury-Prucha
Sjostrom-Betts-Callahan

Having said that, if the team continues it's recent trend right up until the start of the POs, Renney may leave Orr in simply out of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." Kinda hard to argue with a 75%+ winning percentage.
No way do I take Callahan off the third line. He's doing too well there and he does things that Prucha doesn't. And Prucha does not fit on the fourth line.

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Old
03-13-2008, 12:38 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
No way do I take Callahan off the third line. He's doing too well there and he does things that Prucha doesn't. And Prucha does not fit on the fourth line.
Exactly. I don't mind seeing Prucha back in the lineup but I don't want to shake up 2 lines to insert one player. And messing with Callahan right now is a bad idea b/c he's still working on his consistency after the injury and poor start to the season. After all, it took us 60 games to find chemistry and now that we've got it, and it's gotten us 23 of 26 points, why in the world would we throw it all away?

To me what makes more sense is Prucha in for Straka to give Straka a rest in the remaining few games and maybe Hollweg in for Orr one or two games of the reg season to keep Hollweg's head in it. I'd rather not take Sjostrom out at this point b/c he still needs to build familiarity with the Rangers players and system.

I guess we're lucky that we've got 2 forwards we can trust to step right in but at the same time they may not see the ice more than a game or two.

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Old
03-13-2008, 12:58 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Merlin401 View Post
Annoying players who have no one to back up their antics can be more trouble than good if the opposition decides to respond in kind to your star players. I'd prefer the guy who all the OTHER TEAMs annoying players will be looking over their shoulders for.

Seems like the board is split.. it will be interesting to see what actually happens.
These annoying players that you are talking baout back up their own antics. Avery and Hollweg will both throw the gloves with just about anybody out there. And heavyweights stop getting playing time in the playoffs because they are unnecessary and not nearly as good hockey players. You guys can say all you want about the HBO or SOB lines being good lately, Orr is not a good skating defensive player. And cheapshots will happen whether Orr is in the lineup or not. He is not a playoff hockey player, he's just not. Prucha or Hollweg are both much better options come playoff time.

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03-13-2008, 01:27 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Trankler View Post
This is a very, very soft lineup. A couple of Neil flying elbows or Asham charges and the game will be lost, even if Shanahan tries to stop the momentum by dropping the gloves. I'd rather have Orr out there as part of SBO line taking regular shifts and giving the Rangers a physical presence and have him be the one to fight if things get out of hand, rather than having Avery or Dubinsky try to do it.

You've added one skilled forward but shaken up two lines and taken out a heavyweight who backs up the bark of guys like Avery and Callahan. I just don't see the massive upside of this change but do see the massive downside of us being too soft again like the shades of the miserable 06 series.
First of all, if you read my whole post I say that I don't see any changes to the lineup any time soon as long as we keep on our current roll.

Secondly, if trading Peter Prucha for Colton Orr makes us "very, very" soft team, then with Colton Orr in the lineup we're still a "very, ve-" soft team.

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Old
03-13-2008, 03:04 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
First of all, if you read my whole post I say that I don't see any changes to the lineup any time soon as long as we keep on our current roll.

Secondly, if trading Peter Prucha for Colton Orr makes us "very, very" soft team, then with Colton Orr in the lineup we're still a "very, ve-" soft team.
not quite, nobody in the league is afraid of Petr Prucha coming after them after they run a couple of our players, Orr's presence alone makes us not as soft.

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Old
03-13-2008, 03:30 PM
  #42
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not quite, nobody in the league is afraid of Petr Prucha coming after them after they run a couple of our players, Orr's presence alone makes us not as soft.
The point he is trying to make is that whether Orr is in or not, the New York Rangers are a relatively soft team, which I agree with. I think we have lots of sandpaper and one true heavyweight, but our lineup in general is very small and while the players are gritty, not many of them bring what I would call toughness to the lineup. Orr, will get out there and fight, but he is not on a line with stars in order to protect them, and when he does get out on the ice, the other team throws out their heavyweights or at least their fourth liners to take his monster right hand. It does not scare off talented players from running our talented players. Avery is actually better at doing that than Orr, although about 1/10 the size. If you could throw Orr onto the top line or second line as true protection for our stars, sure he would be useful, but that cannot happen, he cant be out on the ice with those players.

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Old
03-13-2008, 03:37 PM
  #43
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as much as i love prucha, i think he should stay out of the lineup unless A) someone gets hurt or B) someone underperforms/line isn't scoring.

Orr has been a key part to this season's success, which is the defensive capability of the 4th line. so why take him out of the lineup?

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03-13-2008, 03:40 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
First of all, if you read my whole post I say that I don't see any changes to the lineup any time soon as long as we keep on our current roll.

Secondly, if trading Peter Prucha for Colton Orr makes us "very, very" soft team, then with Colton Orr in the lineup we're still a "very, ve-" soft team.
I don't diasgree with that. With Orr in there we are still a very soft team, maybe even a very ve soft team, without him in there, and based on the 06 Devils series, we have the potential of being a team that plays scared. IMO, we have the talent and coaching to win outright. We don't need to gut the team's edge to slot one more scoring forward into a 6-10 min slot to put us over the top.

I'd rather forfeit that scoring opportunity to see Orr fire away on an Asham type of player or have a Colin White or Komisarek meekly skate away after the whistle rather than participate in a goal mouth scrum when the Rangers fourth line is out.

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Old
03-16-2008, 07:07 PM
  #45
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Orr is twenty times the player Hollweg is even when he doesn't fight. Colton Orr works hard to play well and generate offense so that he can make his name as more than a fighter, meanwhile Ryan Hollweg simply looks for the next hit and couldn't care less how the team plays. Orr throws smart hits, doesn't take sketchy boarding penalties that could end a player's life, plays well with Betts, and even shoots the puck every once in a while.

When Orr hits his prime in a couple of years we're going to be very glad to have him, while Hollweg will probably be a washed-up nobody competing for a spot with Josh Gratton in Hartford.

That said, if Orr were to be played in the playoffs, I'd expect Renney to have a good talk with him and make it clear that this is the playoffs, he needs to work hard and play tough and defensively.


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